waitasec
Veteran Member
not all people are religious, or want to follow any religious dogma, didn't you know that?
so yeah, freedom from religion works too
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Why do atheists/agnostics/liberals have an anti American attitude?
- Thread starter Debunker
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not all people are religious, or want to follow any religious dogma, didn't you know that?
so yeah, freedom from religion works too
Gosh! Nobody knew that but you. Glad you told us that profound thing.not all people are religious, or want to follow any religious dogma, didn't you know that?
so yeah, freedom from religion works too
Where does any document or constitution give you freedom FROM religion?not all people are religious, or want to follow any religious dogma, didn't you know that?
so yeah, freedom from religion works too
I know plenty of people who are not religious or are interested in any religious dogma, what does that have to do with what I said?
Reverend Rick do enlighten me. Amendment 1 comes to mind but perhaps I do not understand it in the same way you do...
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
What the hell are you gibbering about? Didn't we already have this discussion?
You must be confused with the state law Jefferson passed[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]The text of the First Amendment:[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Some early draft amendments to the religion section were: [/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]James Madison, 1789-JUN-7 "The Civil Rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, nor on any pretext infringed. No state shall violate the equal rights of conscience or the freedom of the press, or the trial by jury in criminal cases."[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]House Select Committee, JUL-28 "No religion shall be established by law, nor shall the equal rights of conscience be infringed," [/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Samuel Livermore, AUG-15 "Congress shall make no laws touching religion, or infringing the rights of conscience." [/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]House version, AUG-20 "Congress shall make no law establishing religion, or to prevent the free exercise thereof, or to infringe the rights of conscience." (Moved by Fisher Ames) [/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Initial Senate version, SEP-3 "Congress shall make no law establishing religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." [/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Final Senate version, SEP-9 "Congress shall make no law establishing articles of faith or a mode of worship, or prohibiting the free exercise of religion." [/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]Conference Committee "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." [/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]The final wording was accepted by the House of Representatives on 1789-SEP-24; and by the Senate on 1789-SEP-25. It was ratified by the States in 1791. [/FONT]
Key words here, IN THAT STATE
http://www.religioustolerance.org/amend_1.htm
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Father Heathen
Veteran Member
You still haven't explained exactly what "It's freedom of religion, not freedom from religion" implies. What's the distinction and how does it impact the rights of an individual?
I thought my "preaching in the park" example made that clear. Let me expand this example.
If I am on a soap box in the park preaching a sermon and you are in the park as well and find it offensive, you cannot have me removed. That in my opinion, would be "freedom from religion".
I cannot force you to participate, but you cannot have a religion free park either.
So if we have an issue with each other in the park, I will be allowed to remain on my soap box and you will have to move along if you don't like it.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
That pertains to free speech. Who here was advocating censorship of religious views? People can still have their 'freedom from religion' by simply ignoring the preaching or avoiding the area while the preaching is taking place.
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
not all people are religious, or want to follow any religious dogma, didn't you know that?
so yeah, freedom from religion works too
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
I notice you did not include the liberal presidents as "patriots".
Was this intentional? Or just a reflection of your deep down belief that only Conservative Christians are true patriots?
Who were the original Patriots of America?
They were radical liberal thinkers. Men who believed in giving their lives in defense against threats to their liberties.
Men like Ben Franklin, Thomas Paine, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton.
Men who aligned themselves the the Radical Whig party of Britain, a party of Liberals who kept a watchful eye out on threats to peoples liberties.
Great Liberal thinkers who would roll over in their graves at the thought of giving up the essential liberties they fought so hard to attain.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Ben Franklin
"The liberties of our country, the freedom of our civil Constitution, are worth defending at all hazards; and it is our duty to defend them against all attacks."-Sam Adams
"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." ~Abraham Lincoln
"Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one." ~Thomas Paine
The US Government is not America. The People are America. And the most Patriotic of Americans are the ones who will stand up and point out when the Emperor struts about naked while he proclaims his glorious adornment.
And those who would praise the Emperors "new clothes" in adoration are but mindless sheep who fear going against the status quo.
waitasec
Veteran Member
it was an interesting notion; freedom from religion
what about freedom of speech, would that qualify for freedom from religion?
Your stretching things, freedom of speech is just that including the freedom to speak against religion.it was an interesting notion; freedom from religion
what about freedom of speech, would that qualify for freedom from religion?
That is not freedom from religion however.
Freedom FROM religion would mean no religious TV show, no churches, no public prayer. It would mean you never would have to see or hear anything religious.
Freedom of religion means all religions AND non religions. You have the personal right to choose YOUR path.
Freedom FROM religion would be intolerant of others.
Freedom From things could include "whites only" or "no Jews" or "no Muslims" are allowed.
None of us have freedom FROM anything. Thank God for that!
waitasec
Veteran Member
because i can speak against religion, my freedom from religion is a right that is protected under the 1st amendment...
i don't see how freedom of religion would be intolerant of others.
people are free to be religious or not...
i don't think it's segregation i think it is tolerance of all walks of life...
"respect my freedom from religion"
waitasec
Veteran Member
well if it is concerning...
same sex marriages, teaching evolution in schools, stem cell research, birth control and so forth...my right under the 1st amendment to protest your religious views would protect my freedom from religion.
it's just an interesting way of looking at it. a way i never thought of actually.
McBell
Unbound
If you are speaking against religion are you not in fact involving yourself with religion?
Some people seem to think that their freedom "from" religion means that they should not have to see or hear anything that reminds them of religion.
For example, the first neighbor here who thought that the second neighbor was not allowed to display the nativity scene on the second neighbors lot because it infringed on the first neighbors freedom from religion.
That is NOT what it means.
However, there are loads of people who want it to mean just that.
Another local example is the fellow who bought a house next door to a church.
He then tried suing because the church violated his freedom from religion by existing.
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waitasec
Veteran Member
from what i gather, religion has permeated society.
i see what you mean, some people are just jerks...
KnightOwl
Member
In my view, when someone says freedom from religion it is in reference to the citizens' relationship with the government -- not with each other. In other words, The government cannot tell me I have to swear on some holy book of my choosing before testifying in court. Instead, I am allowed to take a secular affirmation of my promise to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I also don't have to indicate a religion on a census form and I can't be discriminated against by the government for holding a certain religion.
That doesn't mean I have a right to live a life where any reference to religion by any person or entity is considered an infringement upon my religious freedom.
One thing that supports this notion is the fact that one of the primary functions of the Freedom From Religion Foundation (ffrf.org) is legal challenges regarding separation of church and state.
In my mind it is much more comprehensive and correct to say that what we are supposed to have in the United States is freedom of conscience. The government should not be in the business of enforcing a certain way of thinking about the world. All citizens should have the right to express what they think about religion, politics and anything else as long as that expression does not unduly infringe on the rights of others. I should be able to stand in the park and non-aggressively tell all who will listen about how religion is hogwash or the greatest thing since sliced bread, but I should not be allowed to stand on your front porch and yell the same things through the door you already slammed in my face. Likewise, when there is a function meant for the entire community (or secular cross section thereof) religion and politicking etc. should be off limits -- I don't want to hear someone else's particular version of praise or a political endorsement at my son's or daughter's graduation from a public school supported by taxpayer dollars.
These are rules that families understand when they get together for a birthday gathering or such, or people who go to the office party understand -- don't talk about religion or politics. Why? Because people feel strongly about those things and if you're trying to get along, it is best not to set the stage for a confrontation. And if you're really a nice person, you want to make others feel comfortable... you don't want to agitate them by pointing out that if they don't think like you, they don't fit in and maybe not even welcome.
That doesn't mean I have a right to live a life where any reference to religion by any person or entity is considered an infringement upon my religious freedom.
One thing that supports this notion is the fact that one of the primary functions of the Freedom From Religion Foundation (ffrf.org) is legal challenges regarding separation of church and state.
In my mind it is much more comprehensive and correct to say that what we are supposed to have in the United States is freedom of conscience. The government should not be in the business of enforcing a certain way of thinking about the world. All citizens should have the right to express what they think about religion, politics and anything else as long as that expression does not unduly infringe on the rights of others. I should be able to stand in the park and non-aggressively tell all who will listen about how religion is hogwash or the greatest thing since sliced bread, but I should not be allowed to stand on your front porch and yell the same things through the door you already slammed in my face. Likewise, when there is a function meant for the entire community (or secular cross section thereof) religion and politicking etc. should be off limits -- I don't want to hear someone else's particular version of praise or a political endorsement at my son's or daughter's graduation from a public school supported by taxpayer dollars.
These are rules that families understand when they get together for a birthday gathering or such, or people who go to the office party understand -- don't talk about religion or politics. Why? Because people feel strongly about those things and if you're trying to get along, it is best not to set the stage for a confrontation. And if you're really a nice person, you want to make others feel comfortable... you don't want to agitate them by pointing out that if they don't think like you, they don't fit in and maybe not even welcome.
ninerbuff
godless wonder
I feel the same. Somehow the christian religious have deemed christianity the "founding ground" for the basis of the Declaration of Independence. While I really pay no bother to it, it would be nice not to be judged on whether or not I profess the pledge of allegience (with under god in it) or protest "in god we trust" on the US currency. When I speak of freedom from religion, it's in the context that religion of any kind is imposed on people who have no interest in following it.
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