Why do believers believe what they believe?

[mikkel_the_dane]

Yes. The claim that "A is deluded about fact Y" may also be unjustified.

Well, yes. And then there is Agrippa's Trilemma. So the idea of justification might be unjustified itself.

 

[Truthseeker]

@PureX said: I think that most people have no idea why they believe what they believe. Someone told them a story and they had no reason to doubt it, so they didn't. And they never really put it to the test. But I guess the story must not have misaligned with their reality too much or they would have been forced to notice the discrepancy.

Now that I see words "no idea why", they do have some idea why, I don't think that's right. But I believe that @PureX probably misspoke. He gave a reason why he said "Someone told them a story and they had no reason to doubt it, so they didn't. And they never really put it to the test. But I guess the story must not have misaligned with their reality too much or they would have been forced to notice the discrepancy." That indicates to me that he does think they have "some idea" why they believe. But he can speak for himself when he sees what we say here.

 

[sayak83]

Well, yes. And then there is Agrippa's Trilemma. So the idea of justification might be unjustified itself.

I agree. However I am with the pragmatists on the idea of truth.
The Pragmatic Theory of Truth (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

 

[Trailblazer]

You must be using a different meaning of the word than in the dictionary.
According to the definition I saw, if a person believes that any other person believes something that is not True, then by definition of the word, it means that the first person believes the second person is deluded about that belief.

deluded
believing things that are not real or true:
Poor deluded girl, she thinks he's going to marry her.

deluded

1. believing things that are not real or true: 2. believing things that are…

dictionary.cambridge.org

The word may have taken a pejorative overtone in today's circles...like calling someone publicly blind is considered rude if she is in fact blind...but I see a person who cannot see, I will believe she is blind correct? The same with deluded word.
And since everyone in this world likely believes in many non true things....all of us are, by definition, deluded about these things. So if someone calls me deluded about something, why should I take offense, maybe he/she is right and I should consider the possibility. Same with myself telling others that one of their beliefs is likely untrue (again that means a delusion...even if we do not say the word because of deluded ideas of social political correctness).

Just because "I" don't believe someone else's religious belief is true, that does not mean it is not true.
Since it is a belief it cannot be proven either true or false, so it is not my place to tell anyone that their belief is not true (that they are deluded).

That is aside from the fact that it is disrespectful to call a person deluded, because of the negative overtones and the association of the word with a person who is delusional thus mentally ill.

 

[Truthseeker]

The Baha'i Faith all kinds of rules, both on what you should and shouldn't do.

Baha'is cannot smoke, drink, gamble, have premarital intercourse, gays can't marry, you can't beg as a profession or backbite, or defame people through lies and deceit behind people's backs. All of this I'm perfectly fine with. What I do have a problem with, is that although Baha'is can vote in their respective democratic nations, and should vote in Baha'i elections for leadership within the religion, Baha'is are forbidden to partake in partisan politics and cannot join a political party. Apparently the Universal House of Justice made a huge stink about this, and Baha'is are "above" that type of behavior. Although honestly, all the Baha'is I met leaned left in politics, and weren't shy to talk about it, despite the order from the UHJ.

What Baha'is are supposed to do, more specifically, is to recite one of three obligatory prayers every day. There's a short prayer that takes less than a few minutes to recite. The medium and long prayers are considerably more complex than the short prayer, that most Baha'is perform. Apparently you are also supposed to recite these facing the Baha'i Holy Site of Haifa, Israel. As well, there is a 19-Day Fast between March 1 and March 19, which are the last days of the Baha'i calendar year. Most Baha'is are instructed not to eat and to think about God and read scripture during this time. During the first of every Baha'i calendar month there is also a feast exclusively for Baha'is where they join in fellowship with each other. As a Baha'i is it expected that you read the scripture they have on their website, or even better, download their program Ocean Interfaith Reader and study not just the Baha'i texts but various other scriptures from the world's leading religions.

What Trailblazer said led me to think about another rite of passage for Baha'is. Although it is not truly consider a "vacation", many Baha'is go to their national temple in several different countries, or even better yet, travel to Haifa, Israel to see the burial site of Baha'u'llah and experience the gardens and the nine-sided temple that is there. Baha'is have an obsession with nine. All of their national temples are structured with nine sides. As well, some famous people are Baha'is, including Rainn Wilson, who played Dwight Shrute in The Office. He is an author, creator of SoulPancake and knows a lot of about the religion. Another thing Baha'is stress is the importance of secular work and Baha'u'llah himself compares it to praying. There's a lot of good things about the religion, including but not limited to, the equality of the sexes, despite the UHJ members having to be all men, the importance of both religion and science as they work together such as "two wings of a bird" and the unity of humankind, including the unity of religion, God and the recognition of sovereignty for each nation that currently exists.

In short, there's a lot more to like about the religion than there is to dislike, and it compelled me to learn all about this faith in further detail. I actually know even more about this, particularly the scriptures, that I won't go too in-depth in this post, but, in short, becoming and being a Baha'i isn't a religion which you just tell people you are something and therefore become it, yet, it's not as restrictive as many NRMs and cult-like religions have became in recent years. I remember talking to the woman on the phone about the religion, she stressed to me that if I have any Christian friends that I just "play along" with them, which goes completely against their own rules, and that "everybody sins in this religion and it's pretty much okay to do so." This is probably the reason why I don't see Baha'is being homophobic, despite not allowing gays to marry or have sex with each other. The only unforgiveable sin in the Baha'i Faith is covenant-breaking, which essentially is, starting a new religion and calling it a Baha'i religion. The Baha'is like to think there is only one Baha'i Faith, although this isn't entirely true, they have snubbed the other Baha'i divisions and virtually all Baha'is belong to the same sect of the religion.

I realize that unity has not fully been established and the next prophet of the Baha'i Faith hasn't been born yet, but my theological understanding and beliefs are so ahead of everything I've ever heard, besides some advanced philosophers, theologians and autodidactic people like myself I almost consider myself "post-Baha'i", meaning, I believe what the Baha'i Faith teaches about world unity, but I'm also looking to the reality that is also post-unity, a reality which humans establish their sovereignty and unity everywhere in this Universe and reality in general. Through many talks with Trailblazer I have come to realize that our differences are really only in where authority is appreciated, and general basic theological principles, like the differences between monotheism and panentheism. But I deeply respect her as a person who has decided to make debating skeptics online a passion of hers, and although I'm hundreds of years further than most people on these matters, I feel like she has a mutual understanding of how I perceive God. It's easy to say, "God is reality", but it's much harder to deconstruct that. As well, it's also easy calling yourself a Baha'i, but actively being and engaging yourself with the Baha'i Faith is a difficult thing to do, given the fact that the religion calls so few and their numbers are so thin and far inbetween.

This post alone could be used to explain pretty much the religion as a whole except for the actual scriptures, which would take several more paragraphs to explain.

I had no idea you knew so much about Baha'i! You actually independently investigated as all are supposed to do. Those are few and far in between.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes. The claim that "A is deluded about fact Y" may also be unjustified.

If someone believes something that goes against known facts then I think that person is deluded. It still is not nice to call them deluded though. I recently called a man deluded several times because he kept claiming that pet animals should never be spayed/neutered because it takes away their right to sexuality and he called that a sin. Another delusion he held is that no married couple should ever own a pet because the pet would make it impossible for the couple to have a normal sexual relationship since the pet would get all the affection instead of the partner. This is delusional because it is untrue since 70% of Americans have pets and I am sure married couples are also having sex!

I tried and tried to reason with him to no avail. I am now sorry I called him deluded because that was mean and it was unnecessary.
Later I apologized and it ended on a positive note.

 

[Trailblazer]

I had no idea you knew so much about Baha'i! You actually independently investigated as all are supposed to do. Those are few and far in between.

@Exaltist Ethan is a plethora of knowledge about religion in general and about the Baha'i Faith in particular.
He puts me to shame.

 

[CG Didymus]

I can attest to the truth of what she is saying. I didn't see her investigate the Baha'i Faith over 50 years ago, but I know she always tells the truth. I also can also attest also that her Baha'i beliefs are unconventional. I managed to make her a little more conventional over the years, but not much.

Where is the unity in "doing" one's own thing? But I don't think anybody truly goes against all people all the time. And it seems like the teachings of the Baha'i Faith is aimed towards getting people to be on the same set of beliefs in order to get along in love and peace.

 

[CG Didymus]

Ah, the grim Spetre of SEDI.

Same Evidence Different Interpretation

All evidence is equally valid. All interpretations
have comparable merit.
There is no correct interpretation, there is just opinion.

But is that what a religion really does? A particular religion or sect has their doctrines and beliefs and gives evidence and reasons why those things should be believed and followed.

In fact, with the Baha'i Faith there is a limit on what people can do and interpret their own way. If they go against their various "covenants", a person will get kicked out and shunned. They call them "covenant-breakers". And even if it's one of the Baha'i laws, a person can be sanctioned for continually breaking them. So, even a supposed, easy-going, love everybody religion, like the Baha'i Faith, has its limits on people interpreting things the wrong way and doing the wrong things.

 

[Curious George]

Some atheists have claimed that believers believe in their religion and in God because they want to believe, and the implication is that believers have no evidence for their religion or God’s existence, so the 'only reason' they believe is because they want to believe.

I have replied that I believe because of the evidence for God and my religion, not because I want to believe. I have gone through periods in my life where I have not wanted to believe in God or be a Baha’i but I retained my belief because of the evidence for Baha’u’llah. Other times I wanted to believe, but that is not the reason for my belief, I believe because of the evidence. When I stumbled upon the Baha’i Faith during my first year of college, the very last thing I was looking for was God or a religion. I just happened to find it, investigate it, and then I believed it was true. That was over 50 years ago.

I am not saying that all believers believe in their religion or in God because of the evidence, I am only speaking for myself. Some believers might believe because they want to believe and some believers might believe for other reasons, such as having been brought up in a particular religion, or maybe even because society expects people to believe in God. These are not the reasons I believe. I was not brought up in any religion or with a belief in God and I always went against societal expectations and societal norms. The Baha'i Faith is an unconventional religion, but I am too unconventional to fit in the Baha’i community so I do my own thing.

Believers could say the same thing to atheists, that atheists don’t believe in God because they don’t want to believe, since there is evidence for God’s existence. Maybe some believers have said that, but I never have. When atheists tell me that they don’t believe in God because there is no evidence, I take them at their word. They do not ‘see’ any evidence for God so they don’t believe in God. Why then don’t they take me at my word when I say I believe because of the evidence? It is because they don’t ‘believe’ there is any evidence, so in their minds that means believers cannot believe because of the evidence.

Nobody can ever know why a person believes or disbelieves except that person, so I don't think people should speak for other people and tell them why they believe or disbelieve. They should take them at their word because otherwise they are as much as calling that other person a liar.

Fwiw, I am an atheist and do not believe anyone can choose what they believe (though I do believe in “free will”). We can choose our various paths towards knowledge, we can choose where to direct our thoughts, but our beliefs are a consequence of that thought process. For me, the evidence that no god exists is outweighed by the evidence that any god exists.

I think the disconnect between my beliefs and that of a theist, is experience, information, and analysis. I can respect that other people arrive at different conclusions based on different experience, information, and analysis.

I think it is important recognize that others have different experiences, that we may not have all of the necessary information, and that our analysis can be flawed. If we can do this, perhaps we can foster in ourselves a belief that other beliefs may merit respect.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Some atheists have claimed that believers believe in their religion and in God because they want to believe, and the implication is that believers have no evidence for their religion or God’s existence, so the 'only reason' they believe is because they want to believe.

I wanted to believe (keep believing) but I couldn't anymore.

 

[Trailblazer]

Fwiw, I am an atheist and do not believe anyone can choose what they believe (though I do believe in “free will”). We can choose our various paths towards knowledge, we can choose where to direct our thoughts, but our beliefs are a consequence of that thought process. For me, the evidence that no god exists is outweighed by the evidence that any god exists.

I agree with caveats. Our beliefs are a consequence of our thought process but given new information that affects our thought process an atheist can become a believer and a believer can become an atheist. For me, the evidence that God exists is what causes me to believe, but new information affected my thought process I could become an atheist. Some believers become atheists because they lose their belief in God owing to some tragedy, but I have sustained many tragedies and I have not lost my belief yet. To lose my belief in God I would have to think differntly about Messengers of God, since that is why I believe in God.

 

[Trailblazer]

I wanted to believe (keep believing) but I couldn't anymore.

I think I understand, not from personal experience, but from hearing others who have had a similar experience to yours.
Conversely, I have been through periods of time when I wanted to disbelieve, but I couldn't because of the evidence I saw for God.
I have a history of being very angry at God but I finally got over it.

I do not think belief or disbelief is a choice, it is a consequence of a thought process, as @Curious George said in post #91

 

[Audie]

But is that what a religion really does? A particular religion or sect has their doctrines and beliefs and gives evidence and reasons why those things should be believed and followed.

In fact, with the Baha'i Faith there is a limit on what people can do and interpret their own way. If they go against their various "covenants", a person will get kicked out and shunned. They call them "covenant-breakers". And even if it's one of the Baha'i laws, a person can be sanctioned for continually breaking them. So, even a supposed, easy-going, love everybody religion, like the Baha'i Faith, has its limits on people interpreting things the wrong way and doing the wrong things.

" Gives evidence". Sure. Behold the grand
canyon. That's flood evidence. Believe it because
thats how my sect chooses to interpret the
bible and the landscape.

Of course the interpretationsare restricted to a certain
range of possiblitipossibilities.

But to your question, yes, I'd say that's essentially
what religion is and does.

 

[Audie]

I agree with caveats. Our beliefs are a consequence of our thought process but given new information that affects our thought process an atheist can become a believer and a believer can become an atheist. For me, the evidence that God exists is what causes me to believe, but new information affected my thought process I could become an atheist. Some believers become atheists because they lose their belief in God owing to some tragedy, but I have sustained many tragedies and I have not lost my belief yet. To lose my belief in God I would have to think differntly about Messengers of God, since that is why I believe in God.

Information that God exists?

 

[PureX]

Most things that people believe come from the unconscious mind so people are not consciously aware of them.

Current scientific estimates are that some 95 percent of brain activity is unconscious, says Emma Young in New Scientist magazine. These include habits and patterns, automatic body function, creativity, emotions, personality, beliefs and values, cognitive biases, and long-term memory.Oct 9, 2018​

Strange but true: 95 percent of brain activity is unconscious​

People can only be aware of what is in their conscious mind.
People have some idea why they believe what they believe, what they are consciously aware of.

You are speaking for other people as if you know what they did, but you don't know. Only they know if they put their beliefs to the test.
You also don't know if there is a discrepancy, you just believe that.

People are all generally the same even as we are unique. The exceptions don't negate the generalities.

 

[PureX]

Now that I see words "no idea why", they do have some idea why, I don't think that's right. But I believe that @PureX probably misspoke. He gave a reason why he said "Someone told them a story and they had no reason to doubt it, so they didn't. And they never really put it to the test. But I guess the story must not have misaligned with their reality too much or they would have been forced to notice the discrepancy." That indicates to me that he does think they have "some idea" why they believe. But he can speak for himself when he sees what we say here.

I think that when someone wants to dismiss something that they are reading, they tend to focus very literally and intently on every word hoping to find an excuse to dismiss the idea that they are so eager to dismiss.

A lot of people pay psychologists a lot of money to help them figure out why they believe what they believe about life, themselves, and others. And a whole lot more people would benefit greatly from that service if they could afford it.

The idea that most people understand themselves in this way is quite false. Even though it's a bias that a lot of us want to maintain as being true. We like to think we understand ourselves even when we don't.

 

[YoursTrue]

My point of convincement is simply different then yours. Anybody can tell that you are being honest about it. I've wanted to believe and never could. Whether someone wants to believe or does not want to believe makes no difference to what they believe.

There is no absolute standard for all evidence. Evidence is always a matter of interpretation. Not everybody interprets evidence the same way. I don't think everyone is uniform in their acceptance of evidence; that includes atheists.

From person to person all individuals often arrive at different intuitions and form their interpretations of evidence from those intuitions.

Not all evidence is direct and tangible, and thus irrefutable. Not all evidence is of the same kind.

I find that a lot of critical thinkers officiate their standards of evidence as the absolute, unquestionable standard of evidence for everybody. So it is adhered to quite religiously.
I think the reality is that people arrive at different intuitions all the time, and end up being categorized and stereotyped.

Not every evident thing is scientific, nor does it have to serve some physical practical usage to be evident. That's how I see it anyways.

Did you pray and ask that unseen possibility, even if you don't believe?

 

[YoursTrue]

I think that when someone wants to dismiss something that they are reading, they tend to focus very literally and intently on every word hoping to find an excuse to dismiss the idea that they are so eager to dismiss.

A lot of people pay psychologists a lot of money to help them figure out why they believe what they believe about life, themselves, and others. And a whole lot more people would benefit greatly from that service if they could afford it.

The idea that most people understand themselves in this way is quite false. Even though it's a bias that a lot of us want to maintain as being true. We like to think we understand ourselves even when we don't.

That's true, which is likely why many people visit psychiatrists and psychologists to "find out" who they are...and how to change so they can be happier, I suppose.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I think that most people have no idea why they believe what they believe. Someone told them a story and they had no reason to doubt it, so they didn't. And they never really put it to the test. But I guess the story must not have misaligned with their reality too much or they would have been forced to notice the discrepancy.

It's something like, " My friend believes it, I believe my friend, so I believe it too".

As ole' Becky gal put it in Jesus Camp, "The Bible says it , I believe it, that settles it".