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Why do believers love God?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But you are assuming that there is a next life, which is an unsatisfactory answer of its own.
I know there is a next life although I still do not believe that excuses the suffering that humans have to endure in this life. Just my personal opinion.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
I know there is a next life
No you don't. You believe there is on. You hope there is one. But you do not know there is one.

although I still do not believe that excuses the suffering that humans have to endure in this life. Just my personal opinion.
There is no justification for unnecessary, avoidable suffering.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Saying "vengeance is mine" sounds pretty human, tbh. As does most of gods behaviour.
That is correct. Scriptures humanize a God that is not human a God that can never be known. Of course, the Bible is the worst example, esp. the Old Testament. It is pretty sad if you ask me but this is what humans have done to God.
So god cannot feel or show anger or love or pleasure or wrath.
There is no way that we humans can ever know what God thinks or feels or shows, Imo.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
No you don't. You believe there is on. You hope there is one. But you do not know there is one.
I know there is a next life, not because I hope there is one, because I am not looking forward to living forever in some strange realm, esp. because I am not close to God like I am supposed to be to 'get to heaven.'
There is no justification for unnecessary, avoidable suffering.
You are preaching to the choir. But the believers will give you all kinds of justifications.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
It’s one and the same. Good religion is the right politics while hypocrisy makes people betray for the enemy.
Religion is a way of Life. It is not a tool for worldly power. A Religious government was never allowed in any of the Holy Books, except by a Prophet or Imam who received direct revelations from God.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Islamic scripture contains plenty of oppression, intolerance and violence. It is naive to claim it is all peace, tolerance and equality.
Muslims will pick the passages that suit their agenda. You ignore the nasty bits. ISIS don't.
Islamic scriptures contain some wars against the oppressors at the time of Prophets, which appear to be quite harsh. Now, the thing is groups like ISIS, or Iranian Islamic, make Laws of those events to suit their agenda. In those days a Prohet was getting direct commands from God what to do. But the Religious leaders, now are not in any direct communication with God.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
I think that people confuse religion with politics.
Yes, exactly. There has never been allowed or ordered or taught in the Quran or Bible, to make a government and call it Islamic or Christian government and rule a people forcefully.
If that was the case, anyone who is a criminal can pretend to be a believer and become a Leader in the name of God, and kill all the wronged ones who do not want him as a Ruler, saying these are enemies of God, and must be destroyed. I believe ISIS, or other similar Islamic government are just doing that.

@Link seems to have a different opinion. But I have never seen any verses in the Scriptures to allow an Islamic government by anyone other than a Prophet. Maybe you can prove me wrong @Link?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
After all the most perfect form of government would be a theocracy would it not?
You do know the Baha'is have what they say is a God given form of government ready to be put in place. All we have to do is let them. Do you think it will be perfect?
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
It isn't a wonder that religions meddle in politics or rather butt heads politically now is it?

No, I just said a cynic might note they seem to be designed that way.

After all the most perfect form of government would be a theocracy would it not?

Absolutely not, why would you ask an atheist that? I despite all forms autocracy and totalitarianism, irrespective of whether they are religious or secular form of oppression. Do you really think ISIS was a perfect form of government, that's appalling?
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
I know there is a next life, not because I hope there is one, because I am not looking forward to living forever in some strange realm, esp. because I am not close to God like I am supposed to be to 'get to heaven.'
As I said, you don't know there is an afterlife, you assume there is one because that is how you want it to be. You could well be wrong.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Religion is a way of Life. It is not a tool for worldly power. A Religious government was never allowed in any of the Holy Books, except by a Prophet or Imam who received direct revelations from God.
The Quran says to obey Allah, his messenger, and those appointed in authority (as long as they rule by the Quran). A clear blueprint for religious government.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Quran says to obey Allah, his messenger, and those appointed in authority (as long as they rule by the Quran). A clear blueprint for religious government.

The proof is not in that though, because Ulil-Amr per Bahai understanding is the 12 Imams (a).
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Islamic scriptures contain some wars against the oppressors at the time of Prophets, which appear to be quite harsh.
1. Muhammad's military campaigns were mostly aggressive acts of conquest.
2. There are violent, intolerant or discriminatory passages that have nothing to do with historical wars.
3. If the Quran is a history book rather than a guide book for all mankind, then what is the point of it?
4. "A bit harsh"? They are brutally barbaric, by today's standards.

Now, the thing is groups like ISIS, or Iranian Islamic, make Laws of those events to suit their agenda. In those days a Prohet was getting direct commands from God what to do. But the Religious leaders, now are not in any direct communication with God.
But that is the whole point of the Quran. It is Allah's final and perfect guide for all humanity, transmitted through his last messenger. No more communication with god is needed or will happen. He has given us everything we need. As long as society is ruled by the Quran and sunnah, everything is fine.
Unfortunately, 1400 years of change mean that when governments do rule by the Quran and sunnah, people today call it barbaric and oppressive.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I agree with politics and spirituality being one and linked together in Quran. I also agree Quran and Sunnah and insights they provide to justice, is meant to be implemented, God's judgment as Judge is to implemented by society and Islamic government is needed for that.

Islam is not meant to be just studied, it's meant to be practiced, not just individually but at a collective level of society.

Hajj is meant so humans rise with justice, seeing each other as equals and making God their purpose and allegiance themselves to the inward Kaba which is the Imam of time (A). It's not meant to be purely spiritual and never was divorced from politics.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Yes, exactly. There has never been allowed or ordered or taught in the Quran or Bible, to make a government and call it Islamic or Christian government and rule a people forcefully.
If that was the case, anyone who is a criminal can pretend to be a believer and become a Leader in the name of God, and kill all the wronged ones who do not want him as a Ruler, saying these are enemies of God, and must be destroyed. I believe ISIS, or other similar Islamic government are just doing that.

@Link seems to have a different opinion. @Link?
The Quran is basically a guidebook for establishing a world-wide caliphate. It clearly states (as did Muhammad) that if necessary, Muslims should fight disbelievers "until all religion is for Allah".

But I have never seen any verses in the Scriptures to allow an Islamic government by anyone other than a Prophet. Maybe you can prove me wrong
So what do you think Allah wanted to happen to the empire Muhammad built, after he died? Do you think the land and property was supposed to be handed back to the original owners, and the original religions allowed back?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There is two separate things:

(1) Claim you have correct Islam (Iran and Khamanei (h) don't do that, Khamanei (h) explicit says a lot in his speeches, that they can't claim they represent Islam and implemented it correctly, only that their spirit is Islamic (trying to submit to God)).
(2) Implementing your interpretation to the best of your ability.

Islam in Iran is not the real Islam, I agree. But we haven't seen real Islam since time of the Prophet (s). Ali's (a) government was turmoiled with war and justice he could never implement due to that. Imam Hassan (a) army was bought out by Mauwiya and had to settle for a treaty with Muawiya and give up government.

Our Imams (a) tried to get government back to God and them, but they failed to do so because of lack of support and betrayal.

However, anyone studying Quran and Sunnah, will see this is a struggle Prophets (a) in the past struggled for, and it's impossible that we are suppose to not want as much as Islam as we possible can implement to be implemented and instead have our opinions implemented. How would that work? We would have to put aside what we believe God taught and follow our own ignorance and conjecture with respect to judicial laws of government?

Iranian government is about doing the best with Islam we been passed down. Is it the real Islam? Definitely not in my view, but better then allowing porn, naked strip clubs, etc, etc... in society, better then legalizing prostitution, etc, etc,... the laws of Islam we won't get it alright till Mahdi (a) comes back, and we can always try to change people's mind about Islamic laws instead of saying believers should not rule or try to implement Islam with any interpretation.
 
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