Why do believers love God?

[setarcos]

No, I just said a cynic might note they seem to be designed that way.



Absolutely not, why would you ask an atheist that? I despite all forms autocracy and totalitarianism, irrespective of whether they are religious or secular form of oppression. Do you really think ISIS was a perfect form of government, that's appalling?

Its quite clear that mankind is limited in its capacities. That includes thinking. Since mankind is limited, in order to develop and live in advanced civilizations which give mankind the best prospects for successful future endeavors we need to have some form of government. Whether you believe in an existent God or not is irrelevant. Since in theory the concept of God is that it is a being of perfect intelligence...as an ideal, God would be the most perfect being by which we could be governed. A.k.a. a theocracy. ISIS was or is not a theocracy. And for the record I AM appalled by their behavior and right now my damn spelling!
As soon as man can become a perfected being...not likely anytime soon...then that form of government would become superfluous.

 

[Link]

Its quite clear that mankind is limited in its capacities. That includes thinking. Since mankind is limited, in order to develop and live in advanced civilizations which give mankind the best prospects for successful future endeavors we need to have some form of government. Whether you believe in an existent God or not is irrelevant. Since in theory the concept of God is that it is a being of perfect intelligence...as an ideal, God would be the most perfect being by which we could be governed. A.k.a. a theocracy. ISIS was or is not a theocracy. And for the record I AM appalled by their behavior and right now my damn spelling!
As soon as man can become a perfected being...not likely anytime soon...then that form of government would become superfluous.

The conjecture against us having to be perfectly understanding in Islam to implement Islamic government has gain sway in khawarij like Muslims who just cling to empty slogans. People who are rational see past all that. Khawarij fought Imam Ali (a) with slogan "rule is for God" and wanted to implement their ignorant understanding of Quran over his.

Today we hear instead "government is only for Imams". Both groups are equally cursed and betrayers of the Imam (a) of their time.

Imam Mahdi (a) is going to guide believers, and so we have to look to believers if we want his leadership. It can't be disbelievers, they don't believe in Imam Mahdi (a) and so the way to be ruled by Imam Mahdi (a) in this age, is through those who teach the teachings of Ahlulbayt (a) and this way, some of those guided by Imam Mahdi (a) can influence us.

 

[Sheldon]

Its quite clear that mankind is limited in its capacities. That includes thinking. Since mankind is limited, in order to develop and live in advanced civilizations which give mankind the best prospects for successful future endeavors we need to have some form of government.

Well I see no ready alternative, ungoverned societies would likely descend quite quickly into anarchy.

Whether you believe in an existent God or not is irrelevant. Since in theory the concept of God is that it is a being of perfect intelligence...as an ideal, God would be the most perfect being by which we could be governed.

Well no obviously, since whether you believe a deity is real is of paramount importance to the claim we can be governed by one, and perfect here is subjective of course, perfect for whom, and in what way?

ISIS was or is not a theocracy.

Well I suspect we will now be arguing semantics, but ISIS was a state governed by a religious belief, though of course I recognise that despite claims the bible and the koran are divine in origin, no one can agree on what is says. Nonetheless ISIS was a theocracy.

And for the record I AM appalled by their behavior and right now my damn spelling!

Well of course, but I am not just appalled by their behaviour, but by the idea of having religious beliefs forced on other people in a theocratic dictatorship, albeit a particularly extreme version.

As soon as man can become a perfected being...not likely anytime soon...then that form of government would become superfluous.

I think the the confusion is because as an atheist I don't believe a theocracy involves any deity. So when I say theocracy, I mean a totalitarian government based on a particular interpretation of a particular religion. I find the prospect truly appalling, and of course the humans running it would be no less fallible than any other human government.

I have no example of a deity governing humans to examine, but again the idea of being subjugated to a dictatorship doesn't hold much appeal prima facie.

 

[setarcos]

The conjecture against us having to be perfectly understanding in Islam to implement Islamic government has gain sway in khawarij like Muslims who just cling to empty slogans. People who are rational see past all that. Khawarij fought Imam Ali (a) with slogan "rule is for God" and wanted to implement their ignorant understanding of Quran over his.

Today we hear instead "government is only for Imams". Both groups are equally cursed and betrayers of the Imam (a) of their time.

Imam Mahdi (a) is going to guide believers, and so we have to look to believers if we want his leadership. It can't be disbelievers, they don't believe in Imam Mahdi (a) and so the way to be ruled by Imam Mahdi (a) in this age, is through those who teach the teachings of Ahlulbayt (a) and this way, some of those guided by Imam Mahdi (a) can influence us.

Thanks for the reply. Before I can comment on this I must think over what your saying. My Islamic knowledge is sub par. I gather you are describing an Islamic viewpoint of religious governance?

 

[Link]

Thanks for the reply. Before I can comment on this I must think over what your saying. My Islamic knowledge is sub par. I gather you are describing an Islamic viewpoint of religious governance?

I don't represent Islam, I'm just a person. When I write, I hope what I say is clear.

Islamic government is taught by Islam but we don't have correct Islam. People use slogans because Imam Mahdi (a) is not here, we can't govern by Islamic laws. This is false. We definitely have to try practice Islam and politics and government has a lot of verses, even perhaps a more detailed clear emphasis in Quran that any other aspect including Salah (salah details are not explicit in Quran).

Politics is actually very detailed in Quran. Whether we are living under an oppressor and have to do Taqiya, or work with an unjust government as did Yusuf (a), or establish our own basis so as to restore government to God and his Ruler on earth, all this is discussed.

The thing is if we don't have a fighting base and become apathetic towards ruling by justice, Quran warns there will be great mischief in the land and great prosecution. We are told to ask God not to want to be prosecuted by disbelievers.

We may be oppressed and reach a state similar to how children of Israel were oppressed by the soothsaying sorcerer type religion people before Musa (a), but Quran says, try to not to allow that to happen. Of course, if it happens, believers ought to be patient, but it teaches to fight so that does not happen.

Now we have propaganda that equates Iran with ISIS, Hezbollah with ISIS, and they are planning against us. It was them who created ISIS and it was us who defeated them only for them to then murder Sulaimani who was the main hero who defeated them. Him and the engineer.

God's curse be upon oppressors, their supporters, and those who just watch by forever and ever, unless they repent and change their ways and help God and those striving for justice on earth.

 

[Link]

I posted this in another thread, but it's also in reply to a post in this thread equating Iran with ISIS.

By a logical rule of implication, A -> B -> C -> D implies A-> D.

From that rule, ISIS can't be Islam because they were created by US and Israeli agendas in the region. It's more fair to attribute their crimes to America where the weapons came from and where all the trained individuals got trained from Al-Nusra only to move to ISIS, then to Quran or Mohammad (s).

Seems all those moderate Al-Nusra fighters trained by Obama joined ISIS so maybe US didn't teach them any thing good about Islam?

Blame Obama for not teaching Quran correctly or thinking he can teach it.

 

[setarcos]

Well no obviously, since whether you believe a deity is real is of paramount importance to the claim we can be governed by one, and perfect here is subjective of course, perfect for whom, and in what way?

You have to realize...I'm talking about the ideal form of government in theory. I realize that we as humans now, have to deal with our situation as it presents itself to us now. Not in theory. But the ideal gives us a goal to seek to approach in some manner.
The perfection I speak of would necessarily be for mankind. Since a theoretical God would have perfected intelligence, the most perfect form of governance as regards humankind would ipso facto be the one that God governs us by.

Nonetheless ISIS was a theocracy.

No...ISIS may have claimed to be a theocracy but it has patently demonstrated that it is not one. As evidence, look to their failure to govern and defeat at establishing a coherent universal government. And personally I don't think any claimed theocracy exists today. Catholics, Protestants, Jews, etc. A true theocracy would not be subject to either of these things. There is no existent true theocracy on earth. A true theocracy would be universally recognized, even by those who don't like it. Men fail, God does not. Or would not if it existed

but by the idea of having religious beliefs forced on other people in a theocratic dictatorship, albeit a particularly extreme version.

I agree. Religious beliefs cannot or should not be forced upon a person. That would defeat the purpose of worship. One of the aspects of being holy is that you deserve the adjective. You wouldn't deserve to be called holy if those who call you that are forced to.

So when I say theocracy, I mean a totalitarian government based on a particular interpretation of a particular religion. I find the prospect truly appalling, and of course the humans running it would be no less fallible than any other human government.

I understand your reasoning and the confusion. As I've said...I don't believe there is a true theocracy on earth now. One of the prospects of Christianity is that Christ will return and eventually establish a true theocracy for instance. Until then...we have to do the best we can with what we have.

 

[Trailblazer]

As I said, you don't know there is an afterlife, you assume there is one because that is how you want it to be. You could well be wrong.

I already told you that is not what I want. Why are you telling me what I want?
There is more than one way to know something.

Definition of know

1a(1): to perceive directly : have direct cognition of (2): to have understanding of importance of knowing oneself (3): to recognize the nature of : discern

b(1): to recognize as being the same as something previously known(2): to be acquainted or familiar with (3): to have experience of

2a: to be aware of the truth or factuality of : be convinced or certain of

b: to have a practical understanding of knows how to write

Definition of KNOW

 

[Sheldon]

I posted this in another thread, but it's also in reply to a post in this thread equating Iran with ISIS.

By a logical rule of implication, A -> B -> C -> D implies A-> D.

From that rule, ISIS can't be Islam because they were created by US and Israeli agendas in the region. It's more fair to attribute their crimes to America where the weapons came from and where all the trained individuals got trained from Al-Nusra only to move to ISIS, then to Quran or Mohammad (s).

Seems all those moderate Al-Nusra fighters trained by Obama joined ISIS so maybe US didn't teach them any thing good about Islam?

Blame Obama for not teaching Quran correctly or thinking he can teach it.

It's more convoluted than most, but that is a not true Scotsman fallacy. You may disagree with ISIS, and they you, but it's ia fallacy to create a subcategory of people who don't interpret Islam as you do, and claim they are not Mulsims.

 

[Link]

It's more convoluted than most, but that is a not true Scotsman fallacy. You may disagree with ISIS, and they you, but it's ia fallacy to create a subcategory of people who don't interpret Islam as you do, and claim they are not Mulsims.

They are considered Muslims but the worse kind, hypocrites in the lowest fire.

 

[Sheldon]

I already told you that is not what I want. Why are you telling me what I want?
There is more than one way to know something.

Definition of know

1a(1): to perceive directly : have direct cognition of (2): to have understanding of importance of knowing oneself (3): to recognize the nature of : discern

b(1): to recognize as being the same as something previously known(2): to be acquainted or familiar with (3): to have experience of

2a: to be aware of the truth or factuality of : be convinced or certain of

b: to have a practical understanding of knows how to write

Definition of KNOW

know
verb
1. Be aware of through observation, inquiry, or information.

I think KWED is correct, if you claim to know there is an afterlife, I'm dubious and will need more than a bare assertion, followed by an argument in semantics.

 

[Sheldon]

They are considered Muslims but the worse kind, hypocrites in the lowest fire.

Oh I share your disdain of them, and recognise there are different kinds of Muslims, just as there are Christians and Jews etc etc.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The Quran says to obey Allah, his messenger, and those appointed in authority (as long as they rule by the Quran). A clear blueprint for religious government.

Those appointed with authority are the Imams who are chosen by God. Not just anyone. They are named in Scriptures or Hadithes.

 

[Link]

Those appointed with authority are the Imams who are chosen by God. Not just anyone. They are named in Scriptures or Hadithes.

And how do we obey them now politically and socially and spiritually?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

1. Muhammad's military campaigns were mostly aggressive acts of conquest.
2. There are violent, intolerant or discriminatory passages that have nothing to do with historical wars.
3. If the Quran is a history book rather than a guide book for all mankind, then what is the point of it?
4. "A bit harsh"? They are brutally barbaric, by today's standards.

But that is the whole point of the Quran. It is Allah's final and perfect guide for all humanity, transmitted through his last messenger. No more communication with god is needed or will happen. He has given us everything we need. As long as society is ruled by the Quran and sunnah, everything is fine.
Unfortunately, 1400 years of change mean that when governments do rule by the Quran and sunnah, people today call it barbaric and oppressive.

This discussion would require quoting Quran and Hadith. I supposed would be suitable for another thread, with a subject like this: "does Islam allow establishment of a Religious Government by ordinary people?"

 

[InvestigateTruth]

And how do we obey them now politically and socially and spiritually?

If we lived in their times, we just obeyed them. If they are not currently among us, therefore there is no one to obey. We are only supposed to follow guidance in Scriptures, or Hadithes. But no body is supposed to enforce them!!!. If God wanted them to be enforced in a country by a Ruler, He would just appoint a Prophet, a Messenger or an Imam. It is easy for Him to do it!

 

[Link]

If we lived in their times, we just obeyed them. If they are not currently among us, therefore there is no one to obey. We are only supposed to follow guidance in Scriptures, or Hadithes. But no body is supposed to enforce them!!!. If God wanted them to be enforced in a country by a Ruler, He would just appoint a Prophet, a Messenger or an Imam. It is easy for Him to do it!

Quran shows why an Imam (a) goes to ghayba... it's a result of previous people already denying signs he sent with (ie. miracles) and so if he is not sending miracles, it's due to reasons related to the denial of previous generations. The hostility towards the truth and miracle doers is still here. The world if ready for the Mahdi, he would come, otherwise, if God delays, it's out of his compassion not to destroy a lot of cities.

It's not easy as you say, as Quran shows, hostility often occurs when day shows itself in form of miracles, and it's not easy when the light is hidden and it's night. The morning and dawn is best known with God.

He doesn't want Mahdi (a) to come the world, and they are in passions lead by misguiding leaders, it serves no point, they will propagate Alien Tech or Sorcery or something, and accuse him of lying or being possessed as was done to all Messengers.

God is giving us time to prepare the world for miracles and the Mahdi and this waiting needs striving out of hope humanity over all benefits from him and fear that maybe even only a few people benefit from him and will testify to him when he comes.

But God will deliver the believers from their oppressors of moment of peril, and destroy their opponents. So we try to avoid bad results and try to get people to be just, so that the Mahdi is a mercy with good results.

Also hadiths were left for a reason. They are meant for preparing us for Ghayba.

 

[lukethethird]

Why do believers love God?
Same reason they love themselves.

 

[KWED]

I already told you that is not what I want. Why are you telling me what I want?

So you would rather there was no afterlife? So why do you believe there is one?

There is more than one way to know something.

Definition of know

1a(1): to perceive directly : have direct cognition of (2): to have understanding of importance of knowing oneself (3): to recognize the nature of : discern

b(1): to recognize as being the same as something previously known(2): to be acquainted or familiar with (3): to have experience of

2a: to be aware of the truth or factuality of : be convinced or certain of

b: to have a practical understanding of knows how to write

Definition of KNOW

None of those apply to your belief in the existence of an afterlife.

 

[KWED]

They are considered Muslims but the worse kind, hypocrites in the lowest fire.

And they would say the same about you.
Did you have a point there?