Why do Christians defend the horrendously brutal and genocidal God of the Old Testament?

[74x12]

It's clearly not a loaded question because I'm speaking about written material on record in the Old Testament. It's a mystery why Christians constantly defend this given the epitome of morality within the Christian religion.

It's interesting how you compare God with the perils and benefits associated with fire and the sea.

It would effectively make God an indiscreet force rather than a living entity with purpose and direction.

I said it was a loaded question because your question assumes God is evil and apparently wanted us all to enter into the same assumption.

God is not evil by Christian morality. The whole point of whether God is evil or not would go into the question of rights. What right does God have vs. what rights we have. As for any accusation of hypocrisy. God obeyed His own rules and went above and beyond the call of duty also (as we believe) in the incarnation of Jesus.

He's both a force(not indiscreet) and yet a living Entity. God is literally called a consuming fire in Deuteronomy and the book of Hebrews.

He has purpose and direction yet there are things that God will not do for example because it would be self-contradictory. So, the obvious one is that God cannot lie.

 

[InChrist]

Why should humans carry out God's judgment to kill certain groups and possess the land? And doesn't that violate the commandment 'thou shall not kill'.

Shouldn't God carry out the authority of his own actions, and not leave it to humans to do his bidding?

Blind submission isn't reasonable, or just.

God should rather introduce God's own motives, and judgments, and than carry those out by his own power and authority and not leave it to humans.

The hands of justice should rule the earth, and not allow violence and crime to run free to this day.

I appreciate the questions you bring up and you may have a valid point from your perspective or even the general human perspective about God carrying out His own judgements, rather than using humans. Nevertheless, throughout the scriptures, God is revealed as interacting, working through, and using individuals and nations on the earth to accomplish His purposes. This is especially and uniquely true with regard to the nation of Israel concerning the subject of this thread. I can't fully answer your questions, but Abraham who knew God face to face and knew God's character, understood that the Judge of all the earth would do and could only do what is right. Jesus and all the apostles who quoted repeatedly from the OT also trusted in the character of God revealed in the OT. The scriptures encourage people to seek God and...taste and see that the LORD is good (Psalm 34:8). So it is not blind submission, which I agree is wrong. God will reveal His goodness to anyone who sincerely wants to know. My perspective is that I trust in the goodness of God as He accomplishes His ultimate plan, though I may not fully understand all the details along the way.

 

[loverofhumanity]

God is just as well as loving. God has perfect judgement and makes perfectly just decisions it is my firm belief.

We may not agree or see it differently but God is All Knowing and All Wise and is in the best position to pass judgement in my view.

If we look closely at God’s punishments they are in response to evil usually over an extended period.

Take the Amalekites for example. They waged terrorism against innocent Jews for 500 years. Who would lift a finger in defense of Isis today who burn people alive?

There’s Sodom and Jericho and the Ark but the bottom line is evil behaviour became dominant. We all agree in destroying a Hitler or an Osama Bin Ladin, not an eyelid bat.

But because we weren’t there and rely on scant records we think we can judge God.

I firmly believe that no one is in a better position to judge than God Himself and He did what was best.

God has His Finger on the pulse of humanity and in His unerring wisdom prescribes the remedy for each particular age.

For this age He has prescribed the unity of humanity. Considering the technology we now have. God has a very, very good idea about what’s best for us. So in that age war was a panacea but in this age unity is the remedy so He sent Baha’u’llah to unite the Faiths, races and nations into one world commonwealth.

Past ages required a different solution to today.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I see no contradiction between using discernment concerning human behaviors of right and wrong, while allowing for the reality that God is far above humanity and had valid reasons for the things which occurred in the OT. I think you, rather than trusting that God is good and/or at least considering the possibility that He had righteous reasons for the actions you are focusing on in the OT, you are instead using the information revealed as an excuse to reject God. Obviously, God saw no need to hide this information in His word, while at the same time the scriptures reveal the consistent holy righteousness and goodness of God's character. The fact is that Jesus and all the writers of the NT, with the standards good and evil therein, all believed and trusted in the holy, righteous God of the OT and saw no contradiction.

People often want to know how to harmonize God’s judgement with His love and mercy, but seldom reverse this desiring to know how to harmonize His love and mercy with His justice and judgement. Instead of wondering why a loving, merciful God destroyed the Canaanites or the Amalekites, why not wonder why a just, holy and true God was patient with them for such a long, long time considering their completely degraded wicked and dangerous behavior to themselves and all around them?.

Just the fact that you even say you don't find the "genocide" you are complaining about as horrendously brutal, upsetting to you. seems to reveal that your concern really isn't about the morality of the issue as much as about slandering God's character so you can justify yourself from any accountability to God, or rather this false, evil god you have created in your mind. It is also revealing that many who charge God with cruel, immoral behavior in the OT have no problem and even fully support abortion today which is nothing less than the slaughter of innocent children by the millions .

Okay let's pursue a hypothetical situation.

How would people view Jesus of the New Testament if he did things exactly like God in the Old Testament? Would turn the other cheek persona of Jesus be considered the epitome of love and morality?

In fact, the described childhood of Jesus in the Apocrypha has him painted out as a lot like Damien from The Omen 2. More in line with the angry and vengeful god of the Old Testament.

Another thing is why doesn't the New Testament reflect the same things in the Old Testament as far as actions go?

God isn't supposed to change right? Well enough be in the Old Testament that the New Testament, aside from a statement or two, completely shies away from. Save maybe for tacking on The Book of Revelation which sounds a bit more on par with Old Testament theology.

There is definitely and firmly a clear contradiction shifting the lines regarding behavior and actions under an umbrella of the definitions put forth for goodness and righteousness throughout the two Testaments whether you actually want to accept it as being the case or not. The two are definitely not harmonious or reconcilable.

The god of the Old Testament clearly is not the god that is being portrayed in the New Testament. It portrays God as being more of a victim than an aggressor with a comeback conclusion in the end of the storyline that wraps up the entirety of the Christian mythos.

 

[InChrist]

Okay let's pursue a hypothetical situation.

How would people view Jesus of the New Testament if he did things exactly like God in the Old Testament? Would turn the other cheek persona of Jesus be considered the epitome of love and morality?

In fact, the described childhood of Jesus in the Apocrypha has him painted out as a lot like Damien from The Omen 2. More in line with the angry and vengeful god of the Old Testament.

Another thing is why doesn't the New Testament reflect the same things in the Old Testament as far as actions go?

God isn't supposed to change right? Well enough be in the Old Testament that the New Testament, aside from a statement or two, completely shies away from. Save maybe for tacking on The Book of Revelation which sounds a bit more on par with Old Testament theology.

There is definitely and firmly a clear contradiction shifting the lines regarding behavior and actions under an umbrella of the definitions put forth for goodness and righteousness throughout the two Testaments whether you actually want to accept it as being the case or not. The two are definitely not harmonious or reconcilable.

The god of the Old Testament clearly is not the god that is being portrayed in the New Testament. It portrays God as being more of a victim than an aggressor with a comeback conclusion in the end of the storyline that wraps up the entirety of the Christian mythos.

I, on the other hand, see that the God of the OT is the same God as in the NT. You could read the scriptures and sincerely ask God to clear up all these questions and these things you find confusing and contradictory. But I suppose you won't do that. Have you read in the NT where Paul mentions the word dispensation? Do you know what that means?

 

[socharlie]

Okay let's pursue a hypothetical situation.

How would people view Jesus of the New Testament if he did things exactly like God in the Old Testament? Would turn the other cheek persona of Jesus be considered the epitome of love and morality?

In fact, the described childhood of Jesus in the Apocrypha has him painted out as a lot like Damien from The Omen 2. More in line with the angry and vengeful god of the Old Testament.

Another thing is why doesn't the New Testament reflect the same things in the Old Testament as far as actions go?

God isn't supposed to change right? Well enough be in the Old Testament that the New Testament, aside from a statement or two, completely shies away from. Save maybe for tacking on The Book of Revelation which sounds a bit more on par with Old Testament theology.

There is definitely and firmly a clear contradiction shifting the lines regarding behavior and actions under an umbrella of the definitions put forth for goodness and righteousness throughout the two Testaments whether you actually want to accept it as being the case or not. The two are definitely not harmonious or reconcilable.

The god of the Old Testament clearly is not the god that is being portrayed in the New Testament. It portrays God as being more of a victim than an aggressor with a comeback conclusion in the end of the storyline that wraps up the entirety of the Christian mythos.

it is not God that not the same, it is people who reflect God in a different way. As Christ Jesus (and Paul) said our consciousness should exceed that one set b the Law of Moses.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I said it was a loaded question because your question assumes God is evil and apparently wanted us all to enter into the same assumption.

God is not evil by Christian morality. The whole point of whether God is evil or not would go into the question of rights. What right does God have vs. what rights we have. As for any accusation of hypocrisy. God obeyed His own rules and went above and beyond the call of duty also (as we believe) in the incarnation of Jesus.

He's both a force(not indiscreet) and yet a living Entity. God is literally called a consuming fire in Deuteronomy and the book of Hebrews.

He has purpose and direction yet there are things that God will not do for example because it would be self-contradictory. So, the obvious one is that God cannot lie.

Okay then why the huge differences between Old and New Testaments as applies to what is good and what is righteous? Aside from the cliche old Covenant to New Covenant answers. I heard all that already.

Goodness and righteousness based on moral standpoints as they are described today involving Old Testament and New Testament allegories definitely are not comparable, that much is for certain.

God does not follow his own words given the paradigm shift in the behavior and demeanor of God which strongly suggest the god of the Old Testament is not the god of the New Testament as it's being portrayed. You have two contradicting personalities here. God additionally has lied or supported lying throughout the Old Testament there many verses that support that. But that's for a different debate, another time.

Right now there's no Harmony between the two volumes that can amount to any kind of justification for what goodness and righteousness is purported to be. The Old Testament and New Testament are completely different from one another.

Revelation is kind of misomer. It seems to be have been tacked on at the last minute amid determinations as to whether books of an apocryphal nature would apply or not to the Christian Canon. It's a loose wrap up for the New Testament as I see it, but it needed a conclusion.

The bottom line is Christianity's version of goodness and righteousness is extremely vague and convoluted. I really don't think any Christian understands what goodness and righteousness is which explains why it's so dismissive of God's actions throughout the Old Testament as being anything other but good and righteous because it's God.


I'll likely never figure that one out.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Let's say you were living in the Western United States around 1800. You have a wife and kids. You are miles from the nearest town. A tribe of Indians lives nearby and every few days they come galloping up and shoot at your family. Some of your kids are killed and some are taken hostage. Would you just sit around and do nothing? Or would you be a bit angry? If you got your hands on one of the Indians would you treat him kindly or might you be a little harsh and brutal? God is harsh and brutal to people who attack His followers and refuse to follow His laws. All the people in the Bible who were treated bad by God deserved it. God was not being mean, He was being just.

 

[socharlie]

Okay then why the huge differences between Old and New Testaments as applies to what is good and what is righteous? Aside from the cliche old Covenant to New Covenant answers. I heard all that already.

Goodness and righteousness based on moral standpoints as they are described today involving Old Testament and New Testament allegories definitely are not comparable, that much is for certain.

God does not follow his own words given the paradigm shift in the behavior and demeanor of God which strongly suggest the god of the Old Testament is not the god of the New Testament as it's being portrayed. You have two contradicting personalities here. God additionally has lied or supported lying throughout the Old Testament there many verses that support that. But that's for a different debate, another time.

Right now there's no Harmony between the two volumes that can amount to any kind of justification for what goodness and righteousness is purported to be. The Old Testament and New Testament are completely different from one another.

Revelation is kind of misomer. It seems to be have been tacked on at the last minute amid determinations as to whether books of an apocryphal nature would apply or not to the Christian Canon. It's a loose wrap up for the New Testament as I see it, but it needed a conclusion.

The bottom line is Christianity's version of goodness and righteousness is extremely vague and convoluted. I really don't think any Christian understands what goodness and righteousness is which explains why it's so dismissive of God's actions throughout the Old Testament as being anything other but good and righteous because it's God.


I'll likely never figure that one out.

NT is for another consciousness type. OT is the way it is because of lack of mercy in humanity.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

The god of the Old Testament is evil depraved and vicious demanding complete subjugation.

Why do Christians even attempt to defend this, and then further say God is always good and righteous when in fact much of the Old Testament is choc full of God's actions and deeds that point to the extreme opposite of what good and righteousness is supposed to be?

I'll start off with this rather bizarre response from one of our favorite apologists on the subject of an evil God, Answers in Genesis.


https://answersingenesis.org/who-is...ld-testament-harsh-brutal-and-downright-evil/

I was fascinated with this very first "argument" by your apologist. "The intent of many of those who make such claims is to make a good God look evil in order to justify their rejection of Him, His Word, or even His existence. But if God really doesn’t exist and the Bible isn’t His Word, then those who attack God and His Word by calling Him harsh and evil shouldn’t even care to attack Him."

Can anybody not see the obvious attempt at deflection, and also the obvious attempt to suggest that even those who think they are really non-believers are actually lying to themselves?

But the fact is, when non-theists bring up this argument about the very real contradiction between an all-loving, all-good deity, and the stories written about this deity that demonstrate the converse, we are not questioning "God!" We are questioning how reasonable and intelligent humans can so abandon their reason as to pretend that patent contradiction does not exist.

We're not "questioning God." We're questioning believers.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

God of OT is not brutal at all, OT needs to be properly sorted out. IT s a theological treatise above all and we here just do not understand it. The fact that Christians glued to it as the word of God as dogma of spiritless side of Christianity still surprising to me.

If "we here just do not understand it," then I put it to you that it can provide nothing of use. If you don't understand what it's saying, then you cannot use it as a guide to anything at all, either spiritual or moral.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

According to the Bible, eternal life is for righteous. Do you have some good reason why God should give eternal life also for unrighteous, who would then make eternal life suffering for all?

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

You seem confused. Punishment is not the opposite of life, and therefore Mathew 25:46 is non-sensical. What it means though not quite what it says, is that both the righteous and non-righteous will continue to exist in some fashion (so they both have some sort of "eternal life"), but some will endure punishment while others will receive rewards.

 

[socharlie]

If "we here just do not understand it," then I put it to you that it can provide nothing of use. If you don't understand what it's saying, then you cannot use it as a guide to anything at all, either spiritual or moral.

some do understand it, in different degrees of understanding, but mainstream religions do not understand it and in many cases have been suppressing understanding. OP is a knee jerk reaction to mainstream understanding of this issue.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I was fascinated with this very first "argument" by your apologist. "The intent of many of those who make such claims is to make a good God look evil in order to justify their rejection of Him, His Word, or even His existence. But if God really doesn’t exist and the Bible isn’t His Word, then those who attack God and His Word by calling Him harsh and evil shouldn’t even care to attack Him."

Can anybody not see the obvious attempt at deflection, and also the obvious attempt to suggest that even those who think they are really non-believers are actually lying to themselves?

But the fact is, when non-theists bring up this argument about the very real contradiction between an all-loving, all-good deity, and the stories written about this deity that demonstrate the converse, we are not questioning "God!" We are questioning how reasonable and intelligent humans can so abandon their reason as to pretend that patent contradiction does not exist.

We're not "questioning God." We're questioning believers.

Precisely.

It's disconcerting to see actions reflective of genocide, murder, and rape to name a few, in the same sentence as goodness and righteousness.

I want so bad to use Godwin's law here to show where the disconnect actually lay in justification of such acts as those described in the Old Testament under God's Direction and sanction.

Goodness and righteousness are obviously superfluous terms to say at least when it comes to attesting their meanings when you have the Old Testament God as a backdrop.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Your interpretation

Ken, I'm disappointed. From the past, I recall that you are at least capable of some sort of argument, yet in this thread, all of your posts have been simple denials, with no thought behind them at all.

 

[Twilight Hue]

some do understand it, in different degrees of understanding, but mainstream religions do not understand it and in many cases have been suppressing understanding. OP is a knee jerk reaction to mainstream understandingly of this issue.

What is there to understand about it?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I'll start off with this rather bizarre response from one of our favorite apologists on the subject of an evil God, Answers in Genesis.

https://answersingenesis.org/who-is...ld-testament-harsh-brutal-and-downright-evil/

Well, I've read the whole thing, without throwing myself under a passing train. The man is stunning in his ability to use a semblance of intelligence to bring forth monstrous stupidity.

I suggest others read right to the end, and see what I mean. Use your full wits (if you have any). And when you get to his inane summation at the end, when he asks questions like "were they sinning" (meaning A&E, the Egyptians, the Canaanites, the Benjamites, Sodom & Gomorrah, everybody on earth with the exception of Noah, his wife, 3 sons and their wives), ask yourself whether that means every last one of each of those groups.

Every Egyptian, Canaanite, citizen of S&G, inhabitant of the earth -- every one, even those born a moment ago and struggling for a first breath -- was busy sinning? How stunningly, perversely, stubbornly -- and stupidly -- stupid!

There should be apologies for that sort of apologetic!

 

[Enoch07]

The god of the Old Testament is evil depraved and vicious demanding complete subjugation.

If this was true. You would not even be allowed to make that statement. Starting off an argument with a strawman right off the bat is not a good start.

 

[socharlie]

some do understand it, in different degrees of understanding, but mainstream religions do not understand it and in many cases have been suppressing understanding.

What is there to understand about it?

we need to understand 'staircase' of human consciousness. Human consciousness elevation of it - that is God after, if yo do not understand this - only answer you would have - God is evil brut.
"For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6 - here is the summary.

 

[Twilight Hue]

If this was true. You would not even be allowed to make that statement. Starting off an argument with a strawman right off the bat is not a good start.

I can get a pretty good idea what the early Catholic Church would have done to me had I asked these questions.

Anyways what's the straw man here?