Why do Christians defend the horrendously brutal and genocidal God of the Old Testament?

[pearl]

The god of the Old Testament

The God of the Old Testament Is also the God of the New Testament, and the God of Christ.

Scholarship and clarification are the only justifiable approaches.

Absolutely.

 

[Twilight Hue]

This is the crux of his post. He basically just placed his opinion which is pointless to debate. Well said.

Actually very well said. It proves my point wonderfully by example.

The real straw man is the Christian affirmation of what good and righteous means in terms of how one's own dieity gets perceived and accepted.

I wouldn't go around maintaining Christians as being a centerpiece of information in regards to defining goodness and righteousness as it boggles the mind as to why Christians would even follow such "virtues of God's nature" provided a person were actually to sit down and give a good read through the entirety of the Christian Bible. Especially in attempts for harmonizing the Old Testament with a less violent and malicious theology also known as the toned down New Testament.

People keep on pointing out why the god of the Old Testament is not good or righteous in so many ways, and Christians keep "batting down" any and all valid reasons and observations calling such things as strawmen, and ironically erecting their very own holy scarecrow stuffed with extra straw to make it look fluffy and nice and call it valid and genuine.

But that's just me batting down another "strawman" that I just made up out of the blue in spite of the Old and New Testaments being on my desk and anyone can read for themselves what's inside to verify.

Am I right?

 

[Twilight Hue]

The God of the Old Testament Is also the God of the New Testament, and the God of Christ.

I'd say what you have there is a prime example of Jekyll and Hyde theology.

 

[Neb]

The god of the Old Testament is evil depraved and vicious demanding complete subjugation.

Why do Christians even attempt to defend this, and then further say God is always good and righteous when in fact much of the Old Testament is choc full of God's actions and deeds that point to the extreme opposite of what good and righteousness is supposed to be?

I'll start off with this rather bizarre response from one of our favorite apologists on the subject of an evil God, Answers in Genesis.


Isn’t the God of the Old Testament Harsh, Brutal, Downright Evil?

Your point of view is, God is supposed to be protecting people from suffering and death instead of killing them. Killing and protecting are two of God’s attributes and you could read this in the bible. So, if God allows millions of people to suffer and die and at the same time protect others from suffering and death, then it is consistent with His attributes that you could read in the Bible and Christians are NOT contradicting these facts because if they do then it will contradict that God EXIST and it will also contradict that God is the ONLY giver of life and the ONLY taker of life.

IOW, your statement is TRUE, i.e., “God is always good and righteous”, and the other TRUTH is, God allows millions of people to suffer and die, therefore, the TRUTH about the EXISTENCE OF God is ABSOLUTE, because based on the BIBLE these attributes were TRUE. If I say that God does NOT allow millions of people to suffer and die then I would be denying the TRUTH about the EXISTENCE OF God.

You may not like the TRUTH about the EXISTENCE of God only because your truth is not absolute.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Your point of view is, God is supposed to be protecting people from suffering and death instead of killing them. Killing and protecting are two of God’s attributes and you could read this in the bible. So, if God allows millions of people to suffer and die and at the same time protect others from suffering and death, then it is consistent with His attributes that you could read in the Bible and Christians are NOT contradicting these facts because if they do then it will contradict that God EXIST and it will also contradict that God is the ONLY giver of life and the ONLY taker of life.

IOW, your statement is TRUE, i.e., “God is always good and righteous”, and the other TRUTH is, God allows millions of people to suffer and die, therefore, the TRUTH about the EXISTENCE OF God is ABSOLUTE, because based on the BIBLE these attributes were TRUE. If I say that God does NOT allow millions of people to suffer and die then I would be denying the TRUTH about the EXISTENCE OF God.

You may not like the TRUTH about the EXISTENCE of God only because your truth is not absolute.

I'm beginning to see the psychology unfold as to why people oftentimes follow psychopathic Madmen with undying loyalty and fervor. In this case a psychopathic deity.

 

[Kenny]

Actually very well said. It proves my point wonderfully by example.

The real straw man is the Christian affirmation of what good and righteous means in terms of how one's own dieity gets perceived and accepted.

But aren't you judging by your perception?

I wouldn't go around maintaining Christians as being a centerpiece of information in regards to defining goodness and righteousness as it boggles the mind as to why Christians would even follow such "virtues of God's nature" provided a person were actually to sit down and give a good read through the entirety of the Christian Bible. Especially in attempts for harmonizing the Old Testament with a less violent and malicious theology also known as the toned down New Testament.

I'm always intrigued by this matra that gets recycled. No questions really to ask "why"; just blanket statements.

So, let me ask you a question... Do you nuke Nagasaki in WWII or not?

People keep on pointing out why the god of the Old Testament is not good or righteous in so many ways, and Christians keep "batting down" any and all valid reasons and observations calling such things as strawmen, and ironically erecting their very own holy scarecrow stuffed with extra straw to make it look fluffy and nice and call it valid and genuine.

But that's just me batting down another "strawman" that I just made up out of the blue in spite of the Old and New Testaments being on my desk and anyone can read for themselves what's inside to verify.

Am I right?

Here the question is, IMO, "why are all answers by Christian "batting down"? Or is it "No answer will ever be good enough so I will bat down Christian answers"!

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

He didn't turn her into a pillar of salt of disobeying. He told them not to look back because it was dangerous. She looked back and the danger got her. She was not punished.

If I tell you to not stand on railroad track because it's dangerous. And then you die because you got hit by a train. The fault is on you for not listening. I warned you of the dangers on being on a railroad track. I cannot force you to get away from the tracks. That choice was yours to make.

That's completely silly! The train will hit you whether you look back at it or not. Whatever the danger was that could kill her when her face was towards it, would have done just as much damage with her back to it.

 

[Enoch07]

That's completely silly! The train will hit you whether you look back at it or not. Whatever the danger was that could kill her when her face was towards it, would have done just as much damage with her back to it.

LoLz

What happens when your running as fast as you can and you look back?

You either slow down, or stop moving completely to look back at what is happening. Especially if it's the mass destruction of a city.

It is for this reason she could not escape the danger, because everyone else who did not slowdown or stop to look back was fine.

I can't believe I actually had to explain this to someone who claims to be intelligent.

 

[Twilight Hue]

So, let me ask you a question... Do you nuke Nagasaki in WWII or not?

Is that the established standard set for being good and righteous? Really?

I suppose the answer of good and righteousness depends upon whether you would want to admit that God was actually getting his *** royally kicked at the time to a point of such desperation for survival where there would be no alternative but to resort to extreme measures in order to end aggressive hostilities on part of the Japanese.

In spite of outcomes, I doubt you would come across anybody saying that was ever regarded as being a good and righteous act on part of the people who dropped the bomb, given an opportunity for hindsight in wake of the aftermath, nobody came out smelling like a rose.

Except Christians of course, when exemplifying the Old Testament God's actions as a good and righteous thing using the World War II bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima as a template by which set standards of goodness and righteousness rest upon. "0)

 

[JustWondering]

Cognitive dissonance too: what does or does not make sense v. what is being said by "authority" figures.

Unfortunately, most people are sheeple that detest thinking for themselves. They live in constant fear of one thing or another and desperately cling to whatever strongman figure that gives them a sense of security. There's no way to break that behavior. Human beings simply are not rational creatures.

 

[Twilight Hue]

LoLz

What happens when your running as fast as you can and you look back?

You either slow down, or stop moving completely to look back at what is happening. Especially if it's the mass destruction of a city.

It is for this reason she could not escape the danger, because everyone else who did not slowdown or stop to look back was fine.

I can't believe I actually had to explain this to someone who claims to be intelligent.

Deer in headlights analogy?

Even so, maybe you should consider the act of looking back might be one of mercy and compassion for a people being exterminated. Sounds to me as if God clocked her good for feeling compassionate over the fate of people in the city rather than rescuing her being that she was intended to be spared anyways.


To be that naive to think a whole entire city would be completely devoid of good people to a point where there wouldn't even be a handful of them left inside......

Seems a little unlikely if you ask me if a person wants to be realistic about it. Good thing it's just a story.

 

[Kenny]

Is that the established standard set for being good and righteous? Really?

I suppose the answer of good and righteousness depends upon whether you would want to admit that God was actually getting his *** royally kicked at the time to a point of such desperation for survival where there would be no alternative but to resort to extreme measures in order to end aggressive hostilities on part of the Japanese.

In spite of outcomes, I doubt you would come across anybody saying that was ever regarded as being a good and righteous act on part of the people who dropped the bomb, given an opportunity for hindsight in wake of the aftermath, nobody came out smelling like a rose.

Except Christians of course, when exemplifying the Old Testament God's actions as a good and righteous thing using the World War II bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima as a template by which set standards of goodness and righteousness rest upon. "0)

WOW!! Did you give me a straight uncomplicated answer?

Was that a "no" or a "yes" or a two step dance?

 

[JustWondering]

I said it was a loaded question because your question assumes God is evil and apparently wanted us all to enter into the same assumption.

God is not evil by Christian morality. The whole point of whether God is evil or not would go into the question of rights. What right does God have vs. what rights we have. As for any accusation of hypocrisy. God obeyed His own rules and went above and beyond the call of duty also (as we believe) in the incarnation of Jesus.

He's both a force(not indiscreet) and yet a living Entity. God is literally called a consuming fire in Deuteronomy and the book of Hebrews.

He has purpose and direction yet there are things that God will not do for example because it would be self-contradictory. So, the obvious one is that God cannot lie.

If god were represented as a sentient force of nature that was simply doing it's thing to maintain the world and reality based on certain standards, then I wouldn't call god evil. I wouldn't call such a god good either. Because what god thinks is good differs from what humans think is good. Certainly, you wouldn't expect a sheep to call a wolf that eats it fellows good, even if such actions keep the sheep's population in check so they do not ultimately consume all the food in the area and then starve to death. At most, I'd call such a god apathetic.

However, the god of the bible isn't represented in such a way. The god of the bible is portrayed as being vengeful and sadistic (not an opinion), god IS portrayed clearly as being a vengeful and sadistic entity. How is being vengeful and sadistic virtuous? Is it virtuous to torture people? Jesus clearly explained that people will go to a fiery afterlife and be tortured there. That's in the New Testament that's supposedly all smiles, hugs, and rainbows!

 

[Enoch07]

Deer in headlights analogy?

Even so, maybe you should consider the act of looking back might be one of mercy and compassion for a people being exterminated. Sounds to me as if God clocked her good for feeling compassionate over the fate of people in the city rather than rescuing her being that she was intended to be spared anyways.


To be that naive to think a whole entire city would be completely devoid of good people to a point where there wouldn't even be a handful of them left inside......

Seems a little unlikely if you ask me if a person wants to be realistic about it. Good thing it's just a story.

That's your opinion, everyone has one.

*my analogy was not a deer in headlights analogy*

It's called physics. If you wish to test this, go to a area littered with rocks, trees, roots, potholes, etc. Run flat out as fast as you can. Then turn your head 90° to eye the scenery behind you. I guarantee 1 of 2 things if not both.

1. You will slowdown naturally to help avoid upcoming obstacles in front of you.

2. You force yourself to maintain full speed, which makes harder to avoid obstacles. Causing you to trip or fall, which slows you down or stops you completely.

Either way it's your fault for not focusing on the terrain in front of you maintaining full speed and avoiding obstacles to get away from the danger behind you.

 

[JustWondering]

Ken, I'm disappointed. From the past, I recall that you are at least capable of some sort of argument, yet in this thread, all of your posts have been simple denials, with no thought behind them at all.

I have no expectations for theists to actually debate in the debate forums. I can't remember the last time I saw a theist present a rational, thought out argument in these forums.

 

[JustWondering]

Let's say you were living in the Western United States around 1800. You have a wife and kids. You are miles from the nearest town. A tribe of Indians lives nearby and every few days they come galloping up and shoot at your family. Some of your kids are killed and some are taken hostage. Would you just sit around and do nothing? Or would you be a bit angry? If you got your hands on one of the Indians would you treat him kindly or might you be a little harsh and brutal? God is harsh and brutal to people who attack His followers and refuse to follow His laws. All the people in the Bible who were treated bad by God deserved it. God was not being mean, He was being just.

The glaring problem with your analogy is that humans are not "all-powerful". If god doesn't want someone to get hurt than surely he can prevent it. However, your "good" god doesn't prevent evil. Since your god created everything, he created everything that is evil, and further, allows evil things to exist and hurt people without interfering at all. At best, such a good is apathetic towards humanity. At worst, such a god is evil.

 

[JustWondering]

God is just as well as loving. God has perfect judgement and makes perfectly just decisions it is my firm belief.

We may not agree or see it differently but God is All Knowing and All Wise and is in the best position to pass judgement in my view.

If we look closely at God’s punishments they are in response to evil usually over an extended period.

Take the Amalekites for example. They waged terrorism against innocent Jews for 500 years. Who would lift a finger in defense of Isis today who burn people alive?

There’s Sodom and Jericho and the Ark but the bottom line is evil behaviour became dominant. We all agree in destroying a Hitler or an Osama Bin Ladin, not an eyelid bat.

But because we weren’t there and rely on scant records we think we can judge God.

I firmly believe that no one is in a better position to judge than God Himself and He did what was best.

God has His Finger on the pulse of humanity and in His unerring wisdom prescribes the remedy for each particular age.

For this age He has prescribed the unity of humanity. Considering the technology we now have. God has a very, very good idea about what’s best for us. So in that age war was a panacea but in this age unity is the remedy so He sent Baha’u’llah to unite the Faiths, races and nations into one world commonwealth.

Past ages required a different solution to today.

I'm sorry but I can't believe a creator god is all-knowing and wise and especially good if this is the best universe he could come up with.

 

[Ponder This]

The god of the Old Testament is evil depraved and vicious demanding complete subjugation.

Why do Christians even attempt to defend this, and then further say God is always good and righteous when in fact much of the Old Testament is choc full of God's actions and deeds that point to the extreme opposite of what good and righteousness is supposed to be?

I'll start off with this rather bizarre response from one of our favorite apologists on the subject of an evil God, Answers in Genesis.


Isn’t the God of the Old Testament Harsh, Brutal, Downright Evil?

I think that Christians that defend God despite what you see in the Old Testament as evil and depraved are doing so, for the most part, because they hold the point of view that God is good. It really is that simple. If you hold the position that God is good, then you logically would tend to rebut any claims that he wasn't. That may not seem rational to you, but that's just too bad for you, because only half the human brain functions rationally.

But... I'm not so sure Christians actually need to defend the notion that God is good. It seems to me that part of the deal is the so-called "fear of God". Terrible things can happen. If terrible things didn't happen, then somebody would be criticizing the naive "unicorns and rainbows" view of the Bible instead of the naive "unicorns and rainbows" view of Christians. So why are Christians even "apologizing". To understand how a God that does terrible things can still be considered good, you have to shift your understanding of what good really is. But if you've already decided that you know what good and evil are, then... too bad for you, right?

If you could turn back time would you kill baby Hitler? Is that the sort of question that leads to a meaningful understanding of good and evil? Some people seem to think it does. I remain unconvinced.

 

[Twilight Hue]

That's your opinion, everyone has one.

*my analogy was not a deer in headlights analogy*

Well then Evangelicalhumanist is right.

Plus when you think of the example used, a train is on tracks! Why would you be running on train tracks without thinking all you have to do is simply jump off in a second? Danger averted. ;0)

 

[JustWondering]

I, on the other hand, see that the God of the OT is the same God as in the NT. You could read the scriptures and sincerely ask God to clear up all these questions and these things you find confusing and contradictory. But I suppose you won't do that. Have you read in the NT where Paul mentions the word dispensation? Do you know what that means?

I see the OT and NT as flawed human inventions. Stories that have no bearing on reality. Unfortunately, many humans still embrace these stories as reality instead of seeing them for what they really are, ancient superstitious tales of ignorant people trying to make sense of the world as best they could. People today don't have the excuse of ignorance to justify their beliefs in fantasy as reality.