Why do Christians oppose abortion?

[Mitty]

All land belongs to God. And your other questions are pointless.

So what on Earth has that fantasy and silly obfuscation got to do with the number of women and children who wandered aimlessly around the Middle East deserts with the geriatric Moses for 40 years, and the number of women who gave birth while crossing the Red Sea?

And that's your choice if you believe that those biblical stories are pointless.

Actually it was an angel, because the whole of the OT deals with angels acting as God's agents.

Wrong!!! Have you ever actually read the bible since that's not what the KJV and other versions say, given that it refers to "the LORD" as Abraham's dining guest and not to a member of the House of Lords or a commoner, or even one of those angel thingoes you can fit on the head of a pin.

Or are you claiming that the biblical writers were wrong and that an angel said that it was going to destroy Sodom with a volcanic eruption if it couldn't count more than fifty righteous children after it walked down there, or even 10 righteous children?
Genesis 18:26 So the LORD replied, "If I find fifty righteous ones within the city of Sodom, on their account I will spare the whole place."

Genesis 18:26 King James Version
26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

And why on Earth would the "LORD" need to ask Abraham for his opinion about the number of righteous children in Gomorrah before walking down to Gomorrah to count them for himself anyway? Why wouldn't a real true-blue dinky-di god already know that?

Or is that just another imaginative fantasy story?

 

[eik]

So what on Earth has that fantasy and silly obfuscation got to do with the number of women and children who wandered aimlessly around the Middle East deserts with the geriatric Moses for 40 years, and the number of women who gave birth while crossing the Red Sea?

And that's your choice if you believe that those biblical stories are pointless.

If you're so desperate to read up about the Exodus, I suggest this web site. It is by far the best web site for historical data.

Petra, Jordan: Biblical Kadesh Barnea, Sela, Joktheel, En-mishpat: El-Beidha, Basta

The Exodus Route: 22 Stops between Mount Sinai to Kadesh Barnea

Also see other pages.

Wrong!!! Have you ever actually read the bible since that's not what the KJV and other versions say, given that it refers to "the LORD" as Abraham's dining guest and not to a member of the House of Lords or a commoner, or even one of those angel thingoes you can fit on the head of a pin.

All angels denoted themselves by the YHWH name as they spoke in his name.

Or are you claiming that the biblical writers were wrong and that an angel said that it was going to destroy Sodom with a volcanic eruption if it couldn't count more than fifty righteous children after it walked down there, or even 10 righteous children?
Genesis 18:26 So the LORD replied, "If I find fifty righteous ones within the city of Sodom, on their account I will spare the whole place."

An angel, certainly. May be you need to read up about angels. Very powerful beings who stand before the presence of God and speak in his name.

Genesis 18:26 King James Version
26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

Shame about Sodom. That there were not 10 righteous people in it shows the exponential spread of wickedness, where wickedness is allowed to run riot.

And why on Earth would the "LORD" need to ask Abraham for his opinion about the number of righteous children in Gomorrah before walking down to Gomorrah to count them for himself anyway? Why wouldn't a real true-blue dinky-di god already know that?

He already did know it. He just wanted to publish Abraham's thoughts so no injustice could be attributed to God.

Or is that just another imaginative fantasy story?

Sodom exists. But It's all ashes now due to Fire and Brimstone.
Sodom and Gomorrah Proved!

 

[Mitty]

If you're so desperate to read up about the Exodus, I suggest this web site. It is by far the best web site for historical data.

What actual historical data is there that an 80+ year-old geriatric wandered around the middle east deserts with five million of his relatives for 40 years? Or was that story just an imaginative fantasy?

All angels denoted themselves by the YHWH name as they spoke in his name.

And did they also attend the meeting of gods and goddesses to discuss creating a male person in the image and likeness of the male creator god and to create a female person in the image and likeness of a goddess (Gen 1:26-27)? Or was that story just an imaginative fantasy too?

An angel, certainly. May be you need to read up about angels. Very powerful beings who stand before the presence of God and speak in his name.

Have you ever seen an angel and had a face to face conversation with it? Or is that just an imaginative fantasy too?

Shame about Sodom. That there were not 10 righteous people in it shows the exponential spread of wickedness, where wickedness is allowed to run riot.

So why did Lot mock his sons-in-law and try to pimp their future wives and then sexually assaulted them when Lot's sons-in-law wanted to know what two strangers were up to in Lot's house (Gen 19)? Or was that just an imaginative fantasy too which was based on a volcanic eruption such as Santorini c1450 BC and the demise of the Minoan civilization, which is also the probable source of the story of Atlantis?

He already did know it. He just wanted to publish Abraham's thoughts so no injustice could be attributed to God.

But what relevance was that to Abraham unless the god wanted to tell him about his nephew's immorality? Or was that story just another fantasy too?

Sodom exists. But It's all ashes now due to Fire and Brimstone.

Which is just a story based on a volcanic eruption as discussed above.

 

[eik]

What actual historical data is there that an 80+ year-old geriatric wandered around the middle east deserts with five million of his relatives for 40 years? Or was that story just an imaginative fantasy?

If you're not interested in the evidence, there's no point in continuing the debate,

And did they also attend the meeting of gods and goddesses to discuss creating a male person in the image and likeness of the male creator god and to create a female person in the image and likeness of a goddess (Gen 1:26-27)? Or was that story just an imaginative fantasy too?

Have you ever seen an angel and had a face to face conversation with it? Or is that just an imaginative fantasy too?

If you don't believe in God, you're not going to believe in angels.

So why did Lot mock his sons-in-law and try to pimp their future wives and then sexually assaulted them when Lot's sons-in-law wanted to know what two strangers were up to in Lot's house (Gen 19)? Or was that just an imaginative fantasy too which was based on a volcanic eruption such as Santorini c1450 BC and the demise of the Minoan civilization, which is also the probable source of the story of Atlantis?

If you'd read the evidence the event took place long before Santorini, possibly by an exploding asteroid.

But what relevance was that to Abraham unless the god wanted to tell him about his nephew's immorality? Or was that story just another fantasy too?

God showed he concurred with Abraham's plea that Sodom would not be destroyed on account of 10 righteous men.

Which is just a story based on a volcanic eruption as discussed above.

Actually a meteorite impact giving rise to a thermal event of overwhelming proportions.

 

[Mitty]

If you're not interested in the evidence, there's no point in continuing the debate,

In other words you have no evidence for the story about an 80+ year-old geriatric wandering around the middle east deserts with five million or so relatives for 40 years.

If you don't believe in God, you're not going to believe in angels.

Alas I've never seen a god or an angel, and I stopped believing in such fantasies over 65 years ago

If you'd read the evidence the event took place long before Santorini, possibly by an exploding asteroid.

Doesn't change the fact that fire and brimstone (ie sulphur) obviously describes a volcanic eruption (Gen 19). And besides, the bible says that Abraham lived about 1400 years before Jesus (Luke 3:23-34).

God showed he concurred with Abraham's plea that Sodom would not be destroyed on account of 10 righteous men.

In other words it's just an imaginative fantasy story.

Actually a meteorite impact giving rise to a thermal event of overwhelming proportions.

Is that the same event that caused the extinction of dinosaurs millions of years ago? Or are you just making that up, given that brimstone is another word for sulphur in volcanic activities.

 

[eik]

In other words you have no evidence for the story about an 80+ year-old geriatric wandering around the middle east deserts with five million or so relatives for 40 years.

I presented plenty of evidence in the links, including archaeological discoveries in and around Petra that you can't be bothered to read because you're not interested,

Alas I've never seen a god or an angel, and I stopped believing in such fantasies over 65 years ago

Too bad. I don't envy your state of hopelessness.

Doesn't change the fact that fire and brimstone (ie sulphur) obviously describes a volcanic eruption (Gen 19). And besides, the bible says that Abraham lived about 1400 years before Jesus (Luke 3:23-34).

Yes there are conflicting accounts of where Sodom is located. Some locate on the west bank of the dead sea:

Others to the North:

Whether destruction is due to volcanic activity as well or alternatively, I know not.

In other words it's just an imaginative fantasy story.

Plenty of evidence to suggest it's no fantasy

Is that the same event that caused the extinction of dinosaurs millions of years ago? Or are you just making that up, given that brimstone is another word for sulphur in volcanic activities.

I guess the jury is still out as to what caused it. But there is brimstone aplenty around the Dead Sea, and what appear to be the remains of cities, so not much imagination is needed. It must have got there by a fiery event.

 

[Mitty]

I presented plenty of evidence in the links, including archaeological discoveries in and around Petra that you can't be bothered to read because you're not interested,

But none of that is evidence that an 80+ year old geriatric wandered around the middle east deserts with five million relatives for 40 years and that they took weeks to shamble across the Red Sea because their women were giving birth at the rate of 50 or more per hour.

Too bad. I don't envy your state of hopelessness.

Have you ever seen a god or an angel? If so, what did it look like and what did you discuss?

Yes there are conflicting accounts of where Sodom is located. Some locate on the west bank of the dead sea:
Others to the North:
Whether destruction is due to volcanic activity as well or alternatively, I know not.

Or it's just an imaginative fictional story in a book based on a volcanic eruption such as Santorini and the demise of the Minoan civilization.

Plenty of evidence to suggest it's no fantasy

Yes there's plenty of evidence that the explosive eruption of Santorini was the probable cause of the demise of the Minoan civilization, given that it was probably the largest volcanic explosion in human history.

I guess the jury is still out as to what caused it. But there is brimstone aplenty around the Dead Sea, and what appear to be the remains of cities, so not much imagination is needed. It must have got there by a fiery event.

But which volcano caused it, and perhaps you could ask a god or an angel next time you see one? But in the meantime I'm content to think that the S&G story was probably based on the eruption of Santorini, just as the story about most of Noah's family being drowned by a river flood of 15 cubits high was probably based on an earlier story such as the Gilgamesh epic.

 

[1213]

... And that's obviously what the biblical writers were describing and as interpreteted in the biblical translations/versions.

I have not enough reason to accept that interpretation, sorry.

But, if you accept abortion, why would you not accept if God aborts evil people?

 

[Mitty]

I have not enough reason to accept that interpretation, sorry.

But, if you accept abortion, why would you not accept if God aborts evil people?

Either way the bible still obviously commands the abortions of adulteresses (Numbers 5:20-28 Lev 20:10), and it's your choice if you don't believe what the bible says.

 

[eik]

But none of that is evidence that an 80+ year old geriatric wandered around the middle east deserts with five million relatives for 40 years and that they took weeks to shamble across the Red Sea because their women were giving birth at the rate of 50 or more per hour.

You're making no sense. If you can't be bothered to read, I'm not debating.

Have you ever seen a god or an angel? If so, what did it look like and what did you discuss?

Or it's just an imaginative fictional story in a book based on a volcanic eruption such as Santorini and the demise of the Minoan civilization.

Yes there's plenty of evidence that the explosive eruption of Santorini was the probable cause of the demise of the Minoan civilization, given that it was probably the largest volcanic explosion in human history.

But which volcano caused it, and perhaps you could ask a god or an angel next time you see one? But in the meantime I'm content to think that the S&G story was probably based on the eruption of Santorini, just as the story about most of Noah's family being drowned by a river flood of 15 cubits high was probably based on an earlier story such as the Gilgamesh epic.

No. S&G is specific to the dead sea. Santorini is far too far away.

 

[Mitty]

You're making no sense. If you can't be bothered to read, I'm not debating.

In other words you have no evidence that about 3250 years ago an geriatric over 80 years-old wandered around the middle east deserts with five million relatives for forty years, nor that it took them weeks to shamble across the Red Sea.

No. S&G is specific to the dead sea. Santorini is far too far away.

Do you have any actual evidence that a volcanic eruption destroyed a couple of towns and the surrounding countryside near the Dead Sea about 3500 years ago?

 

[Spirit of Light]

This question is directed mainly at Christians that believe in an afterlife (heaven/hell).

Where do babies go when they die? (born or unborn)

If you think, “Obviously heaven, God would never send an unborn child to hell for all eternity!”, then great, all babies go to heaven. Now, if that's true, I don't understand the opposition to abortion. Think about it. The bible implies that a great many adults are going to hell. If your child grows up in this world, there's a good chance they'll be one of them. If you could guarantee your child's place in heaven for eternity by ending their stay on earth prematurely, wouldn't that be worth it? Their life on earth should be completely meaningless when compared to all eternity, and why risk them going to hell? If this is true, you'd think that if Christians were going to take a position on abortion, it'd be pro-death.

If on the other hand you think, “Everyone has sinned and is destined for hell unless they take Christ into their heart!”, then ok, all babies go to hell. Now, if that's true, what does that say about God? This is important. Because if you believe that the miscarriages, and SIDS babies, and every accident resulting in a child's death means you might go to heaven and never see your children again, doesn't "heaven" look more like your own personal hell, where you are never reunited with your kids, and have to spend eternity living with their abuser?

As far as the new testament goes to spread a message of "God loves you". the concept that this "loving" God will send many of you including your babies to a fiery Hell for all eternity, can't be reconciled.

In fact, if Hell is real, then I really don't think we can view the God as "loving" at all, but instead as the "great torturer".

Since the Bible claims that God is both "loving" and will send you to hell, I feel we must conclude that both can't be true, which implies the entire book is not created by God. At which point, I think it's safe to say we have no true information on an afterlife, and should not be using this book as a basis for our decisions.

Thoughts?

Maybe I can not answer here since I am not a Christian, but I would think they are against abortion because it says in the Bible and 10 commandments, you shall not kill.
Killing is wrong by mostly all religions by the way.

 

[eik]

In other words you have no evidence that about 3250 years ago an geriatric over 80 years-old wandered around the middle east deserts with five million relatives for forty years, nor that it took them weeks to shamble across the Red Sea.

I've just given you the evidence, but you can't be bothered to look at it, because your Christianity-phobic. I don't know why you come here.
El Beidha (5 km north of Petra) was a commercial tool manufacturing and mass food production center. There were no residential dwellings in the final occupation Phase C which was built by Moses in 1444 BC then abandoned 38 years later in 1406 BC.


b. Basta (12 km SE of Petra) was a mass production meat packing plant and crop storage center. An massive assemblage of 100,000 kosher bones were excavated on the production floors. Like Beidha, Basta was built by Moses then abandoned.

Do you have any actual evidence that a volcanic eruption destroyed a couple of towns and the surrounding countryside near the Dead Sea about 3500 years ago?

If you'd bothered to see the youtube videos, you would know. In a word "brimstone" in abundance around the Dead sea, and various structures that look like walls and buildings turned to ash. That's on the Western Dead Sea coast. To the north there's other evidence of destruction by fire.

Did it ever occur to you that the reason you don't know anything is because you refuse to look for the evidence?

 

[Mitty]

I've just given you the evidence, but you can't be bothered to look at it, because your Christianity-phobic. I don't know why you come here.
El Beidha (5 km north of Petra) was a commercial tool manufacturing and mass food production center. There were no residential dwellings in the final occupation Phase C which was built by Moses in 1444 BC then abandoned 38 years later in 1406 BC.

b. Basta (12 km SE of Petra) was a mass production meat packing plant and crop storage center. An massive assemblage of 100,000 kosher bones were excavated on the production floors. Like Beidha, Basta was built by Moses then abandoned.

So what!!! But do you have any actual evidence that Moses and about five million of his relatives built those settlements and lived there for 38 years, before Joshua committed genocide and butchered all the women and children and stole their land? Or did you just make that up?

If you'd bothered to see the youtube videos, you would know. In a word "brimstone" in abundance around the Dead sea, and various structures that look like walls and buildings turned to ash. That's on the Western Dead Sea coast. To the north there's other evidence of destruction by fire.

Did it ever occur to you that the reason you don't know anything is because you refuse to look for the evidence?

So which volcano erupted about 3500 years ago near the Dead Sea, and did a god or an angel also cause the explosive eruption of Santorini and the eruption of Vesuvius which destroyed Pompeii?

 

[Mitty]

Maybe I can not answer here since I am not a Christian, but I would think they are against abortion because it says in the Bible and 10 commandments, you shall not kill.
Killing is wrong by mostly all religions by the way.

But the bible also commands the abortions of adulteresses (Numbers 5:20-28 & Lev 20:10) and commands genocide (Deul 28:53).

 

[Spirit of Light]

But the bible also commands the abortions of adulteresses (Numbers 5:20-28 & Lev 20:10) and commands genocide (Deul 28:53).

Old testament does not count for Christians as far as I know, NT does not speak of genocide or other form of killing, does it?

 

[Mitty]

Old testament does not count for Christians as far as I know, NT does not speak of genocide or other form of killing, does it?

That depends on whether or not they believe that Jesus and what he said is relevant, given that Jesus clearly said that every jot and tittle of OT law still applies till heaven and earth pass when all is fulfilled (Matt 5:17-19), including the commandments to abort adulteresses and for genocide. And as far as I'm aware, heaven and earth haven't passed yet, and won't do so for another few billion years when the Sun becomes a red giant like Betelgeuse.

 

[Spirit of Light]

That depends on whether or not they believe that Jesus and what he said is relevant, given that Jesus clearly said that every jot and tittle of OT law still applies till heaven and earth pass when all is fulfilled (Matt 5:17-19), including the commandments to abort adulteresses and for genocide. And as far as I'm aware, heaven and earth haven't passed yet, and won't do so for another few billion years when the Sun becomes a red giant.

Well, I do think most Christians will say killing is wrong.
But if you are so against Christian religion, why not just leave them believe what they do, and you can believe what you do? No need for evil speach. Is it not good that people do not wish to harm unborn children?

 

[Mitty]

Well, I do think most Christians will say killing is wrong.
But if you are so against Christian religion, why not just leave them believe what they do, and you can believe what you do? No need for evil speach. Is it not good that people do not wish to harm unborn children?

That's their choice if they believe that Jesus and what he said is irrelevant and prefer to just follow Paul, even though Paul never even met Jesus. But either way, the bible obviously still doesn't condemn abortion or genocide or slavery.

 

[Spirit of Light]

That's their choice if they believe that Jesus and what he said is irrelevant and prefer to just follow Paul, even though Paul never even met Jesus. But either way, the bible obviously still doesn't condemn abortion or genocide or slavery.

I can only say the 10 commandments say clearly Christians should not kill, I guess that is toward abortion too.

But I let the Christian members answer you on that.