Why do Christians oppose abortion?

[Mitty]

I can only say the 10 commandments say clearly Christians should not kill, I guess that is toward abortion too.

Wrong. The 10 commandments obviously only apply to persons after they have been born and have taken the first breath of life, given that the bible commands the abortions of adulteresses because of the property rights of men to ensure legitimate lines of descent and inheritance (Numbers 5:20-28 Lev 20:10).

But I let the Christian members answer you on that.

And it's their choice if they don't believe what the bible actually says.

 

[EsonauticSage]

This question is directed mainly at Christians that believe in an afterlife (heaven/hell).

Where do babies go when they die? (born or unborn)

If you think, “Obviously heaven, God would never send an unborn child to hell for all eternity!”, then great, all babies go to heaven. Now, if that's true, I don't understand the opposition to abortion. Think about it. The bible implies that a great many adults are going to hell. If your child grows up in this world, there's a good chance they'll be one of them. If you could guarantee your child's place in heaven for eternity by ending their stay on earth prematurely, wouldn't that be worth it? Their life on earth should be completely meaningless when compared to all eternity, and why risk them going to hell? If this is true, you'd think that if Christians were going to take a position on abortion, it'd be pro-death.

If on the other hand you think, “Everyone has sinned and is destined for hell unless they take Christ into their heart!”, then ok, all babies go to hell. Now, if that's true, what does that say about God? This is important. Because if you believe that the miscarriages, and SIDS babies, and every accident resulting in a child's death means you might go to heaven and never see your children again, doesn't "heaven" look more like your own personal hell, where you are never reunited with your kids, and have to spend eternity living with their abuser?

As far as the new testament goes to spread a message of "God loves you". the concept that this "loving" God will send many of you including your babies to a fiery Hell for all eternity, can't be reconciled.

In fact, if Hell is real, then I really don't think we can view the God as "loving" at all, but instead as the "great torturer".

Since the Bible claims that God is both "loving" and will send you to hell, I feel we must conclude that both can't be true, which implies the entire book is not created by God. At which point, I think it's safe to say we have no true information on an afterlife, and should not be using this book as a basis for our decisions.

Thoughts?

Makes even less sense when they have such a strong hatred towards the world.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Wrong. The 10 commandments obviously only apply to persons after they have been born and have taken the first breath of life, given that the bible commands the abortions of adulteresses because of the property rights of men to ensure legitimate lines of descent and inheritance (Numbers 5:20-28 Lev 20:10).
And it's their choice if they don't believe what the bible actually says.

I did only state my own understanding. So if you feel my understanding is wrong, that is ok to me.

 

[eik]

So what!!! But do you have any actual evidence that Moses and about five million of his relatives built those settlements and lived there for 38 years, before Joshua committed genocide and butchered all the women and children and stole their land? Or did you just make that up?

Now it's your turn to come up with alternative explanations. You've been presented with the evidence. Now fault it.

So which volcano erupted about 3500 years ago near the Dead Sea, and did a god or an angel also cause the explosive eruption of Santorini and the eruption of Vesuvius which destroyed Pompeii?

There is an alternative explanation: Genesis 14:10, NIV: "Now the Valley of Siddim was full of tar pits..." It is possible that a lot of petroleum seeped to the surface, exploded in the hot sun, and caused the brimstone and sulphur surface deposits we see today, and caused the limestone buildings of the cities to turn to ash. Also see Isaiah (xxx. 33, xxxiv. 9). And these were very populous cities. Huge cemeteries have been located in the vicinity. It is also possible that the Jordan river flowed to the Gulf of Aqaba in those days, before the cataclysm.

Here is another excellent resource:
Sodom & Gomorrah
S&G-research1
S&G-research2
S&G-research3

What is disturbing to me is that there is all this evidence, available, and you seem to be entirely ignorant of it and prefer to pretend it doesn't exist?

 

[Mitty]

Now it's your turn to come up with alternative explanations. You've been presented with the evidence. Now fault it.

In other words you don't have any evidence that an 80 year-old geriatric and five million of his relatives walked across the Red Sea and built some settlements before they committed genocide and butchered all the women and children and stole their land

There is an alternative explanation: Genesis 14:10, NIV: "Now the Valley of Siddim was full of tar pits..." It is possible that a lot of petroleum seeped to the surface, exploded in the hot sun, and caused the brimstone and sulphur surface deposits we see today, and caused the limestone buildings of the cities to turn to ash. Also see Isaiah (xxx. 33, xxxiv. 9). And these were very populous cities. Huge cemeteries have been located in the vicinity. It is also possible that the Jordan river flowed to the Gulf of Aqaba in those days, before the cataclysm.

Here is another excellent resource:
Sodom & Gomorrah
S&G-research1
S&G-research2
S&G-research3

What is disturbing to me is that there is all this evidence, available, and you seem to be entirely ignorant of it and prefer to pretend it doesn't exist?

Alas you have presented no evidence that a volcano near the dead sea erupted about 3500 years ago and destroyed a couple of towns.
Or do you think that an angel flew over and dropped a nuke from a B52?

 

[Spirit of Light]

In other words you don't have any evidence that an 80 year-old geriatric and five million of his relatives walked across the Red Sea and built some settlements before they committed genocide and butchered all the women and children and stole their land

Alas you have presented no evidence that a volcano near the dead sea erupted about 3500 years ago and destroyed a couple of towns.
Or do you think that an angel flew over and dropped a nuke from a B52?

@eik did provide you with evidence, that you refuse to take them as evidence enough for you, that is on you not on @eik. You have just negativity toward anyone who discuss with you who see positivity in Christianity.
You do not have anything your self exact for one answer that you give no matter what you discuss about in Christianity.
No need to discuss with you again @Mitty

 

[Mitty]

@eik did provide you with evidence, that you refuse to take them as evidence enough for you, that is on you not on @eik. You have just negativity toward anyone who discuss with you who see positivity in Christianity.
You do not have anything your self exact for one answer that you give no matter what you discuss about in Christianity.
No need to discuss with you again @Mitty

What unequivocal evidence did he provide that an 80 year-old geriatric walked across the Red Sea with 5 million relatives and built a number of settlements?
And what unequivocal evidence did he provide that a volcano eruption near the Dead Sea destroyed two towns about 3500 years ago?

 

[Spirit of Light]

What unequivocal evidence did he provide that an 80 year-old geriatric walked across the Red Sea with 5 million relatives and built a number of settlements?
And what unequivocal evidence did he provide that a volcano eruption near the Dead Sea destroyed two towns about 3500 years ago?

No need to try to convince you in any shape or form @Mitty but if you read the Bible it say a lot about the 40 days in the desert. But I have a feeling the Bible is not something you read

 

[Mitty]

No need to try to convince you in any shape or form @Mitty but if you read the Bible it say a lot about the 40 days in the desert. But I have a feeling the Bible is not something you read

That's just words in a book.

Have you ever seen a god and had a conversation with one as described in Gen 18 when Abraham shared a meal with a god and had a face to face discussion about the number of righteous children in Sodom? Or was that story just an imaginative fantasy?

 

[Spirit of Light]

That's just words in a book.

Have you ever seen a god and had a conversation with one as described in Gen 18 when Abraham shared a meal with a god and had a face to face discussion about the number of righteous children in Sodom? Or was that story just an imaginative fantasy?

In my understanding that took place, and Abraham did have the ability to speak with God. In my understanding Abraham was a very developed spiritual man, and had cultivated his mind and body to see truth in a much clearer way then others. His ability to speak with God was cultivated and not imagination.

Personally I have not seen a God or buddha personally in front of me, but I seen enough beings from other dimensions to understand they are real.
But as I say it is an personal experience and I can not prove to you over internet that what I saw is real. And I have no needs for proving my belief or experiences.

 

[Mitty]

In my understanding that took place, and Abraham did have the ability to speak with God. In my understanding Abraham was a very developed spiritual man, and had cultivated his mind and body to see truth in a much clearer way then others. His ability to speak with God was cultivated and not imagination.

Personally I have not seen a God or buddha personally in front of me, but I seen enough beings from other dimensions to understand they are real.
But as I say it is an personal experience and I can not prove to you over internet that what I saw is real. And I have no needs for proving my belief or experiences.

Do you know anyone who has ever seen a god and had a face to face conversation with it, and if so, did they take any selfies with it? Or are gods just imaginative fantasies?

And how many beings from other dimensions have you seen, and what did those extra-dimensional beings look like, and did you take any selfies with them?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Do you know anyone who has ever seen a god and had a face to face conversation with it, and if so, did they take any selfies with it? Or are gods just imaginative fantasies?

And how many beings from other dimensions have you seen, and what did those extra-dimensional beings look like, and did you take any selfies with them?

If someone I know has seen a God in person is their own experiences, not something I ask of them
Why would a God take a selfie? That is only a human thing you know.
That is not the way we get in contact with beings from other dimensions.

The beings I seen was through meditation and no they did not have a physical body because they do not need it, only beings in this dimension has a need for a physical body.

And no I do not speak of aliens from UFO, that is beings I stay away from

 

[Mitty]

If someone I know has seen a God in person is their own experiences, not something I ask of them
Why would a God take a selfie? That is only a human thing you know.
That is not the way we get in contact with beings from other dimensions.

But do you know anyone who has taken a selfie with a god when they shared a meal together like Abraham did (Gen 18)?

The beings I seen was through meditation and no they did not have a physical body because they do not need it, only beings in this dimension has a need for a physical body.

And no I do not speak of aliens from UFO, that is beings I stay away from

But have you ever seen any "aliens from UFO", or are they just imaginative fantasies like extra-dimensional beings without physical bodies?

 

[Spirit of Light]

But do you know anyone who has taken a selfie with a god when they shared a meal together like Abraham did (Gen 18)?

But have you ever seen any "aliens from UFO", or are they just imaginative fantasies like extra-dimensional beings without physical bodies?

Why would I even ask if someone take a selfie with a God? That is of course of no interest for me. So no I have not seen it not will see it.

I have not seen Aliens no. But no they are not fantasy just because I have not seen them my self

 

[Tambourine]

I believe the Christian anti abortion stance historically developed in parallel from 1960s American politics, and the 2nd Vatican Council that convened during the same era.

 

[sojourner]

Murder is not allowed in the Bible. I think it means also that babies should not be murdered.

Abortion isn't murder. Murder is a legal definition -- not an act. Abortion does not fall within that definition.

 

[sojourner]

All of us began our life at conception.

Did we? How do you know? Who has defined that criterion?

The Bible indicates that when we die, we go to our graves to “sleep” (i.e. to die is to end life.) Death is never spoken of as a gateway to another life.

Try John 11.

So termination of a life for convenience, to me, is murder.

doesn't matter what it is "to you." What matters is what it is. Murder is a legal definition, not an act. Abortion -- where legal -- doesn't fit the definition of murder.

Not believing, doesn’t make God go away....

Believing likewise doesn't make God real...

 

[sojourner]

I believe the Christian anti abortion stance historically developed in parallel from 1960s American politics, and the 2nd Vatican Council that convened during the same era.

Harold Bloom wrote a very interesting book in 1992 entitled, "the American Religion: The Emergence of the Post-Christian Nation." In it, he equates the flag and the fetus with the cross and Jesus.

 

[Deeje]

Did we? How do you know? Who has defined that criterion?

What gave you the idea that life does not begin at conception? All the DNA is there for what that person will become...from a gene pool as old as the human race. When does God think that Life begins? He created it...

This was God's law.....
Exodus 21:22-24...
"If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. 23 But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot".

The fact that this is a pregnant woman means that the life of the child is also accounted for in this ruling. If the "further injury" involves death, of the mother or child, then the one responsible was to pay with his own life.

Try John 11.

OK lets explore John 11......
Lazarus is sick and Jesus is told about it, but refrains from going straight away and waits two more days so that he can demonstrate another wonderful aspect of the new world under the rulership of his Kingdom....resurrection of the dead. (Acts 24:15) The resurrection hope was well taught in Israel. Lazarus' sister knew about the "resurrection on the last day". What did she mean? What "last day" is this? Lazarus does not need to wait to find out.

Where did Jesus say that Lazarus was? John 11:11-14) Where did Jesus call him from (John 5:28-29) After 4 days his sister was sure that his body must now be decomposing.

What was Lazarus' story when he was brought back to life on earth....? Did he wonder why Jesus had brought him back from the spirit world only to die a second time in the future?
What was the purpose of Lazarus' resurrection as compared to John the Baptist, whom Jesus made no attempt to resurrect?

doesn't matter what it is "to you." What matters is what it is. Murder is a legal definition, not an act. Abortion -- where legal -- doesn't fit the definition of murder.

It doesn't matter what it is to you either then, does it?

It fits the legal definition if God considers it murder. The law of the land means nothing to God, its his laws that count after all.

Murder is the "unlawful" taking of human life so God is the one who determines who is murdering and who is not in his own definition....we will account to him for all breaches of his laws.

Believing likewise doesn't make God real...

You continue to make the oddest statements.....I sometimes wonder who I am talking to.....

 

[Mitty]

This was God's law.....
Exodus 21:22-24...
"If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. 23 But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot".

The fact that this is a pregnant woman means that the life of the child is also accounted for in this ruling. If the "further injury" involves death, of the mother or child, then the one responsible was to pay with his own life.

...

But the "life for life, eye for eye" law only applies to the woman if she is killed or injured, and doesn't apply to the foetus if the assault terminates the pregnancy. The husband can only ask for a fine as compensation for loss of property if only the foetus dies from the assault.
Afterall the illegitimate pregnancies of adulteresses are even commanded to be terminated because of the property rights of men (Numbers 5:20-28).