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Why do Christians worship Mary?
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ApologeticsCatholic
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It can be seen therefore that Scripture contains an abundance of a) prophetic references to the Virginal Birth (Isaiah 7:14; Jeremiah 31:22), the Immaculate Conception (Genesis 3:15), the Assumption and Coronation (Revelation 12:1); and b) reference by name to Mary in the New Testament life and ministry of Christ, from His Virginal Conception till His death on the Cross. The prominence given to Mary in the Catholic Church is no more than our Holy Queen deserve.
yes catholics do refer to her as Queen of heaven , scriptural reference you ask?
Rev 12: 1-5: A great and wondrous sign
appeared in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. Then another sign appeared in heaven; an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron sceptre. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
Here is a Bible passage that shows Mary crowned in heaven. She wears a heavenly crown of twelve stars. A crown plainly denotes Queenship. How much more clearly could Mary's honour be illustrated?
DOES THE BIBLE ENDORSE THE CONCEPT OF A HEAVENLY CROWN?
2 Tim 4:8 - Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me that day.....
James 1:12 - Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life.
1 Peter 5:4 - And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.
Rev. 2:10 ."..Be faithful even unto death and I will give you the crown of life."
As we have seen, a crown indicates kingship. Jesus promises crowns of Glory, Life and Righteousness to all who persevere and endure with him to the end. This is certainly the case with Mary. And looking to Timothy, we read:
2 Timothy 2:12 - If we endure, we will also reign with Him...
In Revelation Jesus says:
Revelation 3:21 "To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne."
These are promises made to those who endure to the end with Christ, as Mary did. They will have a share in Jesus's Kingship.
pray to mary
"I urge then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone - for kings, for all those in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceful life in all godliness and holiness. This is good and pleases God our Saviour, who wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man, Christ Jesus."
1Timothy 2:1-5
From this full text of the passage we can see three important things:
1. Paul is asking fellow Christians to pray and intercede with God for those in authority and for other third parties.
2. These prayers and intercessions are being made on behalf of other people, and to God. This is a mediation of prayer. Christians are being asked to mediate between all people, Christian and non-Christian, and God.
3. Since this is all one passage, it is absolutely clear that when Paul refers to there being only one mediator between God and men, he is not referring to the mediation of prayer. Jesus's unique mediation is a different mediation - the mediation of our salvation.
Jesus is the one Mediator of our salvation, our only Saviour. But He is not our only intercessor, as the whole passage above clearly indicates. So the one passage that fundamentalists have used to deny intercessionary prayer, when read in context, actually backs up intercessionary prayer.
When we are ill, or someone we care for needs prayer, we ask other people to pray to God for us. Why do we do this if our own prayer is enough? In most non-catholic churches a prayer list is formed and numerous gather together and pray for the ill.
In James 5. 14-16 we are told to get the Elders of the Church to pray for us and to annoint us when we are sick. Reading on, we find:
...The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. Elijah was a human being like us; yet he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain upon the land. Then he prayed again, and the sky gave rain and the earth produced its fruit."
So we see that intercession strengthens prayer. And the more righteous and faithful the intercessor is, the more powerful the prayer.
yes catholics do refer to her as Queen of heaven , scriptural reference you ask?
Rev 12: 1-5: A great and wondrous sign
appeared in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. Then another sign appeared in heaven; an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron sceptre. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
Here is a Bible passage that shows Mary crowned in heaven. She wears a heavenly crown of twelve stars. A crown plainly denotes Queenship. How much more clearly could Mary's honour be illustrated?
DOES THE BIBLE ENDORSE THE CONCEPT OF A HEAVENLY CROWN?
2 Tim 4:8 - Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me that day.....
James 1:12 - Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life.
1 Peter 5:4 - And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.
Rev. 2:10 ."..Be faithful even unto death and I will give you the crown of life."
As we have seen, a crown indicates kingship. Jesus promises crowns of Glory, Life and Righteousness to all who persevere and endure with him to the end. This is certainly the case with Mary. And looking to Timothy, we read:
2 Timothy 2:12 - If we endure, we will also reign with Him...
In Revelation Jesus says:
Revelation 3:21 "To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne."
These are promises made to those who endure to the end with Christ, as Mary did. They will have a share in Jesus's Kingship.
pray to mary
"I urge then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone - for kings, for all those in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceful life in all godliness and holiness. This is good and pleases God our Saviour, who wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man, Christ Jesus."
1Timothy 2:1-5
From this full text of the passage we can see three important things:
1. Paul is asking fellow Christians to pray and intercede with God for those in authority and for other third parties.
2. These prayers and intercessions are being made on behalf of other people, and to God. This is a mediation of prayer. Christians are being asked to mediate between all people, Christian and non-Christian, and God.
3. Since this is all one passage, it is absolutely clear that when Paul refers to there being only one mediator between God and men, he is not referring to the mediation of prayer. Jesus's unique mediation is a different mediation - the mediation of our salvation.
Jesus is the one Mediator of our salvation, our only Saviour. But He is not our only intercessor, as the whole passage above clearly indicates. So the one passage that fundamentalists have used to deny intercessionary prayer, when read in context, actually backs up intercessionary prayer.
When we are ill, or someone we care for needs prayer, we ask other people to pray to God for us. Why do we do this if our own prayer is enough? In most non-catholic churches a prayer list is formed and numerous gather together and pray for the ill.
In James 5. 14-16 we are told to get the Elders of the Church to pray for us and to annoint us when we are sick. Reading on, we find:
...The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. Elijah was a human being like us; yet he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain upon the land. Then he prayed again, and the sky gave rain and the earth produced its fruit."
So we see that intercession strengthens prayer. And the more righteous and faithful the intercessor is, the more powerful the prayer.
ApologeticsCatholic
Member
Yes you can go directly to God, so theres no misunderstanding between me and other Chrisitans. But Why not say "I don't need the rest of my family as long as I have my father"? The Church is a single body; the different members interelate and rely on one another: "The eye cannot say unto the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" (I Co 12:21).
Mary has a vital part in the entire work of redemption. The Lord does not want to save us without our participation. He seeks our voluntary acceptance of salvation. He stands at the door, knocks and waits. (Rev. 3:10).
In the same way, since the incarnation of the Son of God was necessary for the salvation of the human race, that incarnation would not be achieved by force, but needed the consent of the chosen one. Thus the incarnation, and the salvation of the entire human race were brought about to a major extent because the Virgin Mary, by faith, consented to God's plan.
"I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May it be to me as you have said." (Luke 1:38)
The extent of Mary's act of faith is often overlooked. She was a single virgin, betrothed to Joseph, and giving birth to a fatherless child would place her in dire peril of disgrace, abandonment and possibly much worse, in a society that customarily stoned adulterers to death. Nor did she know what Joseph's or her family's personal reaction would be. Yet she did not hesitate to accept God's commission. Her trust in God made her the first Christian believer and the first among the redeemed. As the Mother of God, the girl from Galilee became the highest created being. When she said "yes" to God her answer was on behalf of the whole human race. Just as Eve's disobedience was on behalf of the whole human race. In this way, the Virgin Mary's significance in the work of our salvation is of the first order.
I cant stress enouph neither in christian beief or in doctrin is mary worshiped but she deserves respect non-the less , god chose her why shouldnt we respect that?
Mary has a vital part in the entire work of redemption. The Lord does not want to save us without our participation. He seeks our voluntary acceptance of salvation. He stands at the door, knocks and waits. (Rev. 3:10).
In the same way, since the incarnation of the Son of God was necessary for the salvation of the human race, that incarnation would not be achieved by force, but needed the consent of the chosen one. Thus the incarnation, and the salvation of the entire human race were brought about to a major extent because the Virgin Mary, by faith, consented to God's plan.
"I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May it be to me as you have said." (Luke 1:38)
The extent of Mary's act of faith is often overlooked. She was a single virgin, betrothed to Joseph, and giving birth to a fatherless child would place her in dire peril of disgrace, abandonment and possibly much worse, in a society that customarily stoned adulterers to death. Nor did she know what Joseph's or her family's personal reaction would be. Yet she did not hesitate to accept God's commission. Her trust in God made her the first Christian believer and the first among the redeemed. As the Mother of God, the girl from Galilee became the highest created being. When she said "yes" to God her answer was on behalf of the whole human race. Just as Eve's disobedience was on behalf of the whole human race. In this way, the Virgin Mary's significance in the work of our salvation is of the first order.
I cant stress enouph neither in christian beief or in doctrin is mary worshiped but she deserves respect non-the less , god chose her why shouldnt we respect that?
Kcnorwood said:
Maybe this isn't what you are trying to get across and everyone is misunderstanding you because of your choice in wording? Could you please clarify? Or do you actually think that Mary is not mentioned in the Bible?
1. 'Queen of Heaven'...she was the mother of Jesus and Jesus was the Son of God. In a sense, she is like a queen.
2. 'The Bible never mentioned her...' - It mentions her in tons of places in the Bible...so many that I'm not going to even bother putting down the verses (however, I think ApologeticsCatholic listed a few in another post)
3. '...therefore she was manmade' - What do you mean by 'manmade'? That she was a product of man (born of humans)? If thats what you mean, because you are REALLY unclear on this, I don't think anyone ever said Mary WASN'T born of humans. However, God used Mary as a kind of vessel so she could bear Jesus. Hence, the 'Virgin Birth'. She gave birth to Jesus without losing her virginity. That is the reason why she is so praised.
Kcnorwood
Well-Known Member
ApologeticsCatholic said:sorry for the delay been busy
Bible never mentioned mary?
In refutation of the claimed silence regarding Mary in the New Testament, it must be noted that the Blessed Virgin Mary is mentioned by name 20 times in the New Testament: Matthew 1:16; Matthew 1:18; Matthew 1:20; Matthew 2:11; Matthew 13:55; Mark 6:3; Luke 1:27; Luke 1:30; Luke 1:34; Luke 1:38; Luke 1:39; Luke 1:41; Luke 1:46; Luke 1:56; Luke 2:5; Luke 2:16; Luke 2:19; Luke 2:34; John 19:25; Acts 1:14
Now all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us
"And going into the house they [the Magi] saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him.
"...but when the designated time had come, God sent forth his Son born of a woman, born under the law, to deliver from the law those who were subjected to it, so that we might receive our status as adopted sons..."
"You, my brothers, are children of the promise, as Isaac was. But just as in those days the son born in nature's course persecuted the one whose birth was in the realm of the spirit, so do we find it now."
31 Then his mother and his brothers came; and standing outside, they sent to him and called him.
32 A crowd was sitting around him; and they said to him, "Your mother and your brothers and sisters are outside asking for you."
33 And he replied, "Who are my mother and brothers?"
34 And looking at those who sat around him, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers!
35 Whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother" (Mark 3:31-35
He left that place and came to his hometown, and his disciples followed him.how is mary not mentioned in the bible?
2 On the sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astounded. They said, "Where did this man get all this? What is this wisdom that has been given to him? What deeds of power are being done by his hands!
3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.
4 Then Jesus said to them, "Prophets are not without honor, except in their hometown, and among their own kin, and in their own house."
5 And he could do no deed of power there, except that he laid his hands on a few sick people and cured them.
6 And he was amazed at their unbelief.
Furthermore, if we look at the places where Mary does receive a mention in Scripture, we note that these are all critical points in the life and ministry of her Son, Jesus: the annunciation (Luke 1:27 ff), the visitation (Luke 39-45) where Mary is Scripturally exalted as the Mother of God :
But why am I so favoured that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"
-the birth of Jesus,(Luke 2:7) the presentation in the Temple (Luke 2:22), the first public miracle of Jesus (John ), the death of Jesus on the Cross (John 19:25). Mary was with Jesus from His virginal conception until His death on the Cross, at all the critical moments in His earthly life. Note also that in some of these places Mary is not referred to by name, but by the title Mother of Jesus for example at the start of Jesus public ministry in John 2, or where she is designated the Queen of Heaven, as in Revelation 12:1:Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman, robed with the sun, standing on the moon, and on her head a crown of twelve starsNot forgetting the all-important prophecy from Genesis 3:15: I shall put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers:; he will bruise your head, and you will strike his heel.
In contrast, Adam gets only 7 mentions in the New Testament: Luke 3:38; Romans 5:14; 1 Corinthians 15:22; 1 Corinthians 15:45 ; 1 Timothy 2:13; 1 Timothy 2:14; Jude 14 and Eve gets only 2 mentions, in 1 Timothy 2:13 and 1 Timothy 2:14. Yet no one would deny the significance of Adam and Eve in the history of salvation.
We could also go into detail on the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14 regarding the virgin birth, but I would like instead to point out another verse regarding Our Lady and the incarnation of Jesus which is often overlooked. This reference to Mary in the Old Testament is Jeremiah 31:22:
For the Lord shall create a new thing in the earth; a woman shall compass a man
This verse has been used even by nonCatholic commentators in the past in reference to the Virginal Conception of Christ. As examples, I cite from two celebrated (non-Catholic ) commentators of previous centuries, Matthew Henry and A. Fausset.
The following is from Matthew Henrys Commentary on Jeremiah 31:"Many good interpreters understand this new thing created in that land to be the incarnation of Christ, which God an eye to in bringing them back to that land, and which had sometimes been given them for a sign, Isa. 7:14; 9:6. A woman, the virgin Mary, enclosed in her womb the Mighty One; for so Geber, the word here used, signifies; and God is called Gibbor, the Mighty God (ch. 32:18), as also is Christ in Isa. 9:6, where his incarnation is spoken of, as it is supposed to be here. He is El-Gibbor, the mighty God. Let this assure them that God would not cast off this people, for that blessing was to be among them, Isa. 65:8.""But the Christian fathers (Augustine, &c.) almost unanimously interpreted it of the Virgin Mary compassing Christ in her womb. This view is favored:--
(From the Matthew Henry (d.1714) Commentary on Jeremiah 31)
- (1) By the connection; it gives a reason why the exiles should desire a return to their country, namely, because Christ was conceived there.
- (2) The word "created" implies a divine power put forth in the creation of a body in the Virgin's womb by the Holy Ghost for the second Adam, such as was exerted in creating the first Adam ( Luk 1:35 Hbr 10:5 ).
- (3) The phrase, "a new thing," something unprecedented; a man whose like had never existed before, at once God and man; a mother out of the ordinary course of nature, at once mother and virgin. An extraordinary mode of generation; one conceived by the Holy Ghost without man.
- (4) The specification "in the land" (not "earth," as English Version), namely, of Judah, where probably Christ was conceived, in Hebron (compare Luk 1:39, 42, 44 , with Jos 21:11 ) or else in Nazareth, "in the territory" of Israel, to whom Jer 31:5, 6, 15, 18, 21 refer; His birth was at Beth-lehem ( Mic 5:2 Mat 2:5, 6 ). As the place of His nativity, and of His being reared ( Mat 2:23 ), and of His preaching ( Hag 2:7 Mal 3:1 ), are specified, so it is likely the Holy Spirit designated the place of His being conceived.
- (5) The Hebrew for "woman" implies an individual, as the Virgin Mary, rather than a collection of persons.
- (6) The restoration of Israel is grounded on God's covenant in Christ, to whom, therefore, allusion is naturally made as the foundation of Israel's hope (compare Isa 7:14 ). The Virgin Mary's conception of Messiah in the womb answers to the "Virgin of Israel" (therefore so called, Jer 31:21 ), that is, Israel and her sons at their final restoration, receiving Jesus as Messiah ( Zec 12:10 ).
- (7) The reference to the conception of the child Messiah accords with the mention of the massacre of "children" referred to in Jer 31:15 (compare Mat 2:17 ).
- (8) The Hebrew for "man" is properly "mighty man," a term applied to God ( Deu 10:17 ); and to Christ ( Zec 13:7 ; compare Psa 45:3 Isa 9:6 )
Epiphanius laid down the rule: "Let Mary be held in honour. Let the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost be adored, but let no one adore Mary" (ten Marian medeis prosknueito). Nonetheless the same Epiphanius abounds in the praises of the Virgin Mother, and he believed that there was some mysterious dispensation with regard to her death implied in the words of Revelations 12:14: "And there were given to the woman two wings of a great eagle that she might fly into the desert unto her place." Certain it is, in any case, that such Fathers as St. Ambrose and St. Jerome, partly inspired with admiration for the ascetic ideals of a life of virginity and partly groping their way to a clearer understanding of all that was involved in the mystery of the Incarnation, began to speak of the Blessed Virgin as the model of all virtue and the ideal of sinlessness. Several striking passages of this kind have been collected.
In St.Gregory of Nazianzen's sermon on the martyr St. Cyprian (P.G., XXXV, 1181) we have an account of the maiden Justina, who invoked the Blessed Virgin to preserve her virginity.
- "In heaven", St. Ambrose tells us, "she leads the choirs of virgin souls; with her the consecrated virgins will one day be numbered."
- St. Jerome (Ep. xxxix, Migne, P. L., XXII, 472) already foreshadows that conception of Mary as mother of the human race which was to animate so powerfully the devotion of a later age.
- St. Augustine in a famous passage (De nat. et gratis, 36) proclaims Mary's unique privilege of sinlessness.
I never said she was in the bible.
ApologeticsCatholic
Member
Mary is in the bible through-out, and revered as mother of god and in revelation Crowned! simple matter and i was ending the argument to the title Mary is not worshiped by Christians at all!
ApologeticsCatholic
Member
all way off topic >.>
Einstein simply meant that he didn't believe quantum mechanics (which deals with probabilities, rather than with certainties) was correct.
Einstein simply meant that he didn't believe quantum mechanics (which deals with probabilities, rather than with certainties) was correct.
EiNsTeiN
Boo-h!
I dont wanna be the one who interrupts serious conversations (and don't know its details)...But i just wanna say that Einstein's quote means he believes religion is interconnected with science, and thats how he opposed Quantum mechanics..Which drops the first quote's logic...ApologeticsCatholic said:
logician
Well-Known Member
VIrgin births were part and parcel of many religious myths, several pre-dating Xianity. Let's face if, Xianity was just a rehash of pre-existant mythology, yet Xians want us to believe that only the stories of THEIR religion really happened, and all others are bogus.
Any religion that claims it is the one true way, isn't.
Any religion that claims it is the one true way, isn't.
logician
Well-Known Member
Again, from the dictionary:
"prayer
noun 1.a devout petition to God or an object of worship. 2.a spiritual communion with God or an object of worship, as in supplication, thanksgiving, adoration, or confession."
Deny as you like, praying to Mary is an act of worship.
"prayer
noun 1.a devout petition to God or an object of worship. 2.a spiritual communion with God or an object of worship, as in supplication, thanksgiving, adoration, or confession."
Deny as you like, praying to Mary is an act of worship.
Kcnorwood
Well-Known Member
I will say this though I do believe that the Mary the catholics pray to is made up so they could ease the Pagans into christiany with little or no fight. Has history has showen.
What is the point in praying to a mortal? Even if she did give birth to Jesus she is not a Goddess, seems to me they are praying to the same Pagan Goddess the Pagans did..
What is the point in praying to a mortal? Even if she did give birth to Jesus she is not a Goddess, seems to me they are praying to the same Pagan Goddess the Pagans did..
MaddLlama
Obstructor of justice
Kcnorwood said:
Not all Pagans worshipped a female Deity. Yes, in many polytheistic cultures there were important female figures in mythology, but there was no "Pagan Goddess", and the influence of a female Deity in any culture wasn't universal enough for the invention of Mary to be as influential as you want it to be. The transition from polytheism to Christianity happened differently in each part of the world the Europeans explored and conquered, and even moving from the middle east into Europe the transition wasn't in a cookie cutter style. The only place I can think of that an old Pagan Goddess had so much influence she had to be converted into the "new" religion was Brigid of the Celtic Isles. And, Brigid never became Mary, the church simply made up a myth surrounding her and proclaimed her a saint.
Do you have any historical evidence that Mary was fabricated to convert Pagans?
The point of the intercession of the saints I suppose, is that if you're going to pray for something, you might as well enlist all the help you can get.
MaddLlama
Obstructor of justice
wanderer085 said:
But, that's not what Catholics do. Basically you are claiming that every child who has written a letter to santa asking for a new toy is worshipping santa.
Claim all you like that you know better because you were raised a Christian and blah blah blah, but you can't deny that being raised protestant, and not a Catholic hardly makes you an expert in Catholic doctrine and practice. Actually, it makes you ill-qualified and uninformed.
It's ok if you want us to believe you know everything. I promise we'll at least try to take you seriously.
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