Why do Christians worship Mary?

[Kcnorwood]

There is no proof either way but being that everyone knows that the christians used pagan ideas, odds are Mary sprang up from Pagan ideas also. This would make Mary devotion just a carry-over from pagan goddess cults. Do you really think that the catholics would come forward & admit if she was? In a word no. The bible says she's not, but the bible was written by man, which makes it flawed.

I can come up with 20 people who say she & you can do the same it means nothing because of lack of proof. But your big on proof so try this on.

Jeremiah 7:18, "... the women knead the dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger!"

Being christians you can't refute the bible, or can you?

The verus I found in the bible is saying that are making offerings to Mary, now why make offerings to someone who isnt a God/ess?

 

[MaddLlama]

There is no proof either way but being that everyone knows that the christians used pagan ideas, odds are Mary sprang up from Pagan ideas also. This would make Mary devotion just a carry-over from pagan goddess cults. Do you really think that the catholics would come forward & admit if she was? In a word no. The bible says she's not, but the bible was written by man, which makes it flawed.

I can come up with 20 people who say she & you can do the same it means nothing because of lack of proof. But your big on proof so try this on.

Jeremiah 7:18, "... the women knead the dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger!"

Being christians you can't refute the bible, or can you?

The verus I found in the bible is saying that are making offerings to Mary, now why make offerings to someone who isnt a God/ess?

Actually, you're wrong. In that verse the "queen of heaven" they are referring to is an actual Pagan goddess - God is expressing his anger that some of the Isrealites are adopting Pagan worship instead of worshipping him.
It would have been very very hard for this passage to be refering to Mary, since Jerimiah is in the Old Testament....you know....the book written before even Mary herself was born?

 

[logician]

Catholics don't pray to Mary the same way they pray to God. They ask her to pray for them, as additional "help" for thier own prayers for something. That is the truth, and if you choose to disregard it, then that's your problem.

It is also my personal experience that many atheists are more concerned about attacking Christians and telling all people who believe in God how stupid and misguided they are. I'm just basing my opinion on my own personal experience. So, that must make my opinion correct.

This post is laughable, how many TV stations do you know of that have atheists decrying the Xian faith and saying Xians are stupid, vs how many TV stations do you know of that have Xian ministers saying non-believers are going to hell, and similiar such nonsense?

Case closed.

 

[Kcnorwood]

Actually, you're wrong. In that verse the "queen of heaven" they are referring to is an actual Pagan goddess - God is expressing his anger that some of the Isrealites are adopting Pagan worship instead of worshipping him.
It would have been very very hard for this passage to be refering to Mary, since Jerimiah is in the Old Testament....you know....the book written before even Mary herself was born?

Your right the OT is the Jewish bible the NT is the christian bible so why pay it any heed?

 

[MaddLlama]

Your right the OT is the Jewish bible the NT is the christian bible so why pay it any heed?

I don't know, you're the one who brought it up.
And, for the record, Christians pay attention to both the Old and New Testament.

Do you at least concede that the verse you quoted is not referring to Mary?

 

[Kcnorwood]

You can't have it both ways if your God is angry in this passage about someone giving homage to Mary then why keep praying to her?

 

[MaddLlama]

You can't have it both ways if your God is angry in this passage about someone giving homage to Mary then why keep praying to her?

Wow....

First of all, I'm not a Christian, I am a pagan, so it's not my god. Second of all, if you scroll up to my other post, you will see that the verse you quoted is NOT referring to Mary at all, but an actual unnamed Pagan goddess (most likely referring specifically to a moon goddess). It couldn't possibly be referring to the worship of Mary, because at the time this event supposedly happened, Mary hadn't even entered the picture.

Now that I've just repeated myself, I hope you'll actually read this one. Try reading it twice this time, because you apparently missed it the last time.

 

[Gentoo]

I don't understand why it is so difficult to understand that Catholic's honor Mary, not worship her... that the two actions are very different things.

 

[KPereira]

If you are at least Catholic, you have heard of the Hail Mary (and no, not the football play).

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, PRAY for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.

I don't understand why it is so difficult to understand that Catholic's honor Mary, not worship her... that the two actions are very different things.

Gentoo...some people unfortunately argue for the sake of arguing. I don't think I'm alone in thinking it puzzling that an athiest is trying to teach Catholics about Catholic doctrine. Gentoo...you hit it right on the nose. We honor Mary. Catholics don't believe her to be equal with God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Honor her, yes...but not worship her like we worship Jesus.

 

[rocka21]

If you are at least Catholic, you have heard of the Hail Mary (and no, not the football play).

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, PRAY for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.






Gentoo...some people unfortunately argue for the sake of arguing. I don't think I'm alone in thinking it puzzling that an athiest is trying to teach Catholics about Catholic doctrine. Gentoo...you hit it right on the nose. We honor Mary. Catholics don't believe her to be equal with God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Honor her, yes...but not worship her like we worship Jesus.[/quote




If the dogma is declared infallibly, it would pronounce Mary as "Co-Redemptrix [co-redeemer], Mediatrix [mediator] of All Graces, and Advocate for the People of God." It would require all Roman Catholics to believe that:

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Mary is co-redemptrix with Jesus. She participates in people's redemption.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Mary is mediatrix and has the power to grant all graces.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Mary is the advocate for the people of God and has the authority to influence God's judgments[/FONT]

my dad is catholic and brought this up to me this weekend. he is very upset that the church is saying mary is a CO- REDEEMER. He is still a catholic , but this does not sit right with him.

is this right? or is he wrong?

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[MaddLlama]

When did that become official church doctrine?

 

[rocka21]

i don't know if it is official doctrine. if someone knows, please help.

 

[KPereira]

If you are at least Catholic, you have heard of the Hail Mary (and no, not the football play).

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, PRAY for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.






Gentoo...some people unfortunately argue for the sake of arguing. I don't think I'm alone in thinking it puzzling that an athiest is trying to teach Catholics about Catholic doctrine. Gentoo...you hit it right on the nose. We honor Mary. Catholics don't believe her to be equal with God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Honor her, yes...but not worship her like we worship Jesus.

If the dogma is declared infallibly, it would pronounce Mary as "Co-Redemptrix [co-redeemer], Mediatrix [mediator] of All Graces, and Advocate for the People of God." It would require all Roman Catholics to believe that:

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Mary is co-redemptrix with Jesus. She participates in people's redemption.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Mary is mediatrix and has the power to grant all graces.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Mary is the advocate for the people of God and has the authority to influence God's judgments[/FONT]

my dad is catholic and brought this up to me this weekend. he is very upset that the church is saying mary is a CO- REDEEMER. He is still a catholic , but this does not sit right with him.

is this right? or is he wrong?

</IMG></IMG></IMG>

That isn't Catholic doctrine. A bunch of people petitioned Pope John Paul II in order for her to be named those things (which is sad, in my opinion, that we are PETITIONING to change things in our religion :sarcastic).

One of the groups who wanted this change was the Vox Populi Mariae Mediatrici ("The Voice of the People for Mary Mediatrix"). They believe that Mary's role was unique. If she had said 'no' to Gabriel ... to God, would we have a Savior, would we have our true Redeemer ... our Lord .... the Messiah? They believe that Mary played a definite role in our salvation. But back to the original statement ... that role is entirely dependent and subordinate on Jesus.

Catholics do agree wholeheartedly that Jesus is the one and only mediator between man & God. No question ... the bible teaches this ... the Catholic Church teaches this. No subordinate co-deities, no additional redeemers, no additional mediators. Clear enough?

 

[rocka21]

That isn't Catholic doctrine. A bunch of people petitioned Pope John Paul II in order for her to be named those things (which is sad, in my opinion, that we are PETITIONING to change things in our religion :sarcastic).

One of the groups who wanted this change was the Vox Populi Mariae Mediatrici ("The Voice of the People for Mary Mediatrix"). They believe that Mary's role was unique. If she had said 'no' to Gabriel ... to God, would we have a Savior, would we have our true Redeemer ... our Lord .... the Messiah? They believe that Mary played a definite role in our salvation. But back to the original statement ... that role is entirely dependent and subordinate on Jesus.

Catholics do agree wholeheartedly that Jesus is the one and only mediator between man & God. No question ... the bible teaches this ... the Catholic Church teaches this. No subordinate co-deities, no additional redeemers, no additional mediators. Clear enough?

thanks, i thought my dad said that this just passed. i guess its just a request by some.

thanks

 

[KPereira]

thanks, i thought my dad said that this just passed. i guess its just a request by some.

thanks

I don't think something like that would pass. I don't know for sure, though. I haven't heard anything on it at all. This was back in 1997, though. I doubt it passed...but I don't know that for sure. Sorry.

 

[Gentoo]

If you are at least Catholic, you have heard of the Hail Mary (and no, not the football play).

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, PRAY for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.

This alone should put this whole thing to bed.

 

[KPereira]

This alone should put this whole thing to bed.

Hopefully...but even if it hasn't I think I'm done debating in this thread. If that doesn't get across, I don't know what will .

 

[Gentoo]

Hopefully...but even if it hasn't I think I'm done debating in this thread. If that doesn't get across, I don't know what will .

Well, like you say, some people debate for the sake of arguing, not the sharing of ideas. Sad really.

 

[rocka21]

Hopefully...but even if it hasn't I think I'm done debating in this thread. If that doesn't get across, I don't know what will .

what does she "pray" for us?

do you have a reference to ANY dead person, not just mary, praying for someone?

do people pray after they die?
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[KPereira]

Catholics have Saints. They are special people who have devoted their lives to serving God. St. Cecilia (I think it is) is the patron saint of music. So if you are going to perform a song on stage, you could ask St. Cecilia to pray for you that you do well. There are tons and tons of other saints too. Of course, all these Saints have long passed away.

Another example is my High School Prayer. At the end, it states 'St. Ignatius, pray for us'. We are asking St. Ignatius that we do well in school and that we serve God in all aspects of our lives.

They don't pray physically for us, but we believe that their spirit in Heaven is asking God to help us out.