Why do Christians worship Mary?

[MaddLlama]

"So is a dying and reborn God. What difference does that make"

It makes it quite likely the Jesus story was just another myth, a rehash of previous mythology.

So what?

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

Seems like many of you missed the definition of worship I posted. There is no doubt Mary is an object of worship according to the definition, regardless of the naysayers.

Your definition, or a secular definition, or worship, is not a Christian definition, as much as you might like to make it so. "Worship" is America today has a much looser application than it has in the past...people "worship" bands and celebrities, that doesn't mean they think they are gods. Catholics do not worship Mary as a deity.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

In my book praying to any entity is worshipping it, no matter what kind of horse you call it.

Asking someone to pray for you is not praying "to" that person.

 

[Booko]

For all intents and purposes, the supposed mother of the supposed Jesus is an object of worship, especially in the Roman Catholic church.

Um, actually not, though according to my husband (raised Catholic) in some places it might push past veneration and on into something that looks more like worship. But he would also tell you that those are Catholics who have not really been well educated in the difference, and that is a problem that can be solved any time.

Universities and secondary schools are named after her,

They're named after John Wesley and Walt Whitman too, but no one has ever accused anyone of worshipping them. Uh, why is that only the Catholics (both East and West) get singled out for this accusation? There's a bit of history behind it, I'm pretty certain, but the question needs to be asked whether activities from several centuries ago should be applied to current events.

statues of her exist in most every Catholic church, prayers are said to her. This certainly is enough to qualify her as an object of worship.

I just asked my best friend today to pray for someone who is ill, but I hardly worship her.

It was my late Catholic mother-in-law that always maintained that when you have a very serious problem, you should always "go to the top" (i.e. pray to Jesus directly), and that seemed to work for her.

Why the attempt to deify a mythical ordinary human?

Why beg the question?

 

[Booko]

how can one be both mythical and human?

Well, I'm currently watching "King Arthur" on FX.

There was a real human -- but what we "know" is awfully mythical.

 

[Booko]

"Mythical or not, to Catholics she is far from ordinary."

And that is my question, why?

If JamesthePersian doesn't eventually pop in here with a really excellent discussion of the Theotokos, I will eat my wireless card.

 

[logician]

Maybe to Catholics it technically is not worship, but to the rest of it is.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck.

 

[Booko]

My theory is that the virgin birth was a way for "Eve" to be restored to purity, as Jesus' death and forgiveness restores "Adam". I think that in the days the gospels were written the culture was so masculine dominant that it needed a way to specifically include women in the salvation/resurrection of Christ. And the virgin birth was a way of doing that.

Not to take this off the thread, but just fwiw Islam and the Baha'i Faith both accept the Virgin Birth but to not subscribe to the idea of original sin, so we have no reason think anything needed restoring with Mary.

It's a common enough theme when it comes to the Founders of Religions that there's something about them that might be a test to people believing in the message. Ah, but that's more fodder for a Comparitive Religions thread, so I'd better stop now. :cover:

My husband's *very large* extended family is Irish and Polish Catholic. (Does it get any more Roman Catholic than that???) I've observed them all, in worship, in private prayer, in theological discussions over dinner, and not one in a quarter of a century have I seen one of them do or advocate anything that might be considered "worshipping" Mary.

They are also very very well versed in RCC theology, history and dogma, so truly, I'm not surprised.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

Maybe to Catholics it technically is not worship, but to the rest of it is.

Luckily, the parameters of Christian doctrine and teaching are not defined by Atheists.

 

[MaddLlama]

Maybe to Catholics it technically is not worship, but to the rest of it is.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck.

So, if it isn't woship to the Catholics (who are the ones who are doing it, and understanding why they do what they do), but it is to the people on the outside looking in (the people who have very little idea what Catholics actually do and believe), why is your definition and understand correct, and the Catholic understanding of Catholic doctrine and practice wrong?

Since when do atheists get to decide what Catholics, or any other religion for that matter, believe?

 

[Booko]

"So is a dying and reborn God. What difference does that make"

It makes it quite likely the Jesus story was just another myth, a rehash of previous mythology.

I find it interesting that when discussing recurrent themes across cultures in the context of, say, Jungian archetypes, no one would consider using terms like "rehash of previous mythology."

 

[Booko]

Asking someone to pray for you is not praying "to" that person.

Indeed. Anyone care to post the text of "Hail, Mary"?

It's very obvious to me that one is asking Mary to "pray for us sinners" and NOT asking her to redeem them or forgive their sins. That power is reserved to God (and in a mainline Christian context, that would mean Jesus).

 

[MaddLlama]

I find it interesting that when discussing recurrent themes across cultures in the context of, say, Jungian archetypes, no one would consider using terms like "rehash of previous mythology."

Because most people who discuss these kinds of topics show some respect and knowledge of the cultures, myths and histories of what they're discussing?

 

[logician]

Actually, I was a Christian for a number of years, have read the bible thru twice and more besides, have attended a number of services of many faiths including Catholic.

My reading of the bible certainly makes it seem that Catholics have taken the veneration (or worship) of Mary way over the top, compared to what little exists biblically about her(which certainly is fiction, unless you are unscientifically inclined).

 

[MaddLlama]

Indeed. Anyone care to post the text of "Hail, Mary"?

It's very obvious to me that one is asking Mary to "pray for us sinners" and NOT asking her to redeem them or forgive their sins. That power is reserved to God (and in a mainline Christian context, that would mean Jesus).

Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit
of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now,
and at the hour of death. Amen.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

Actually, I was a Christian for a number of years, have read the bible thru twice and more besides, have attended a number of services of many faiths including Catholic.

My reading of the bible certainly makes it seem that Catholics have taken the veneration (or worship) of Mary way over the top, compared to what little exists biblically about her(which certainly is fiction, unless you are unscientifically inclined).

And again, it's lucky for Christianity that no Atheist's "reading" (aka personal interpretation) of the Bible has any bearing on what Christianity actually teaches...btw, the fact that something is not explicitly stated in the Bible does not make it untrue.

 

[Booko]

Maybe to Catholics it technically is not worship, but to the rest of it is.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck.

And of course, that's left to an individual's judgment, as it should be anyway.

The same sort of discussions ensue when the subject of
Trinity arises (Is that polytheism or not?). Uh, no, I'm NOT trying to open up that subject. Whether it's strictly monotheistic or not depends very much on one's pov.

 

[Booko]

Because most people who discuss these kinds of topics show some respect and knowledge of the cultures, myths and histories of what they're discussing?

Well, and no one discussing Jungian archetypes feels the need to either prove or disprove some theological position.

I'd prefer as objective look as I can manage. It's better scholarship, for one thing.

 

[logician]

"

And again, it's lucky for Christianity that no Atheist's "reading" (aka personal interpretation) of the Bible has any bearing on what Christianity actually teaches..."

Please fill us in on what Xianity "exactly" teaches, I'd like to hear this one.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

"

And again, it's lucky for Christianity that no Atheist's "reading" (aka personal interpretation) of the Bible has any bearing on what Christianity actually teaches..."

Please fill us in on what Xianity "exactly" teaches, I'd like to hear this one.

Certainly...in the case of Catholicism, I would consult the Bible, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and the Councils of the Catholic Church. In none of the above will you find anything indicating that the Catholic Church worships Mary as a deity or teaches that one should.