Why do Christians worship Mary?

[Booko]

Actually, I was a Christian for a number of years, have read the bible thru twice and more besides, have attended a number of services of many faiths including Catholic.

So was I. Add the uber-Catholic family I married into. Hm, various Catholics I dated over the years. Growing up in a neighborhood that was more than half Catholic. Sitting around discussing canon law and the latest papal bulls over dinner. etc. etc.

btw, what sort of Christian were you? I was raised Protestant (Reformed, to be specific). It didn't exactly set me up for a good understanding of Catholicism (either Eastern or Western) because it's a sola scriptura faith.

Strangely enough, it was orthodox Jewish e-friends who got me over the sola scriptura thing.

I was also an atheist for years. So I'll grant you this, certainly -- it is possible that some of the mythos surrounding Jesus actually was a "rehash." It's just that with our knowledge of the era is a bit fuzzy, it's difficult to "prove" exactly what happened. There are many possibilities, only one of which is "someone repackaged a bunch of old myths." Hm, well that is also a topic for a different thread, I guess.

My reading of the bible certainly makes it seem that Catholics have taken the veneration (or worship) of Mary way over the top, compared to what little exists biblically about her(which certainly is fiction, unless you are unscientifically inclined).

If all you're reading is the Bible, friend, that's your first huge mistake in understanding Catholicism.

Truly, ask why sola scriptura is a problem. Start a thread and invite the Catholics and Jews to discuss it with you. Some of the rest of us might pop in too.

 

[Booko]

Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit
of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now,
and at the hour of death. Amen.

Thank you!

Hm, sounds like honouring someone and asking for their assistance.

Gosh, I do that to my mother. I don't worship her, though. Just ask her, she'll tell you I don't.

 

[logician]

"Certainly...in the case of Catholicism, I would consult the Bible"

I didn't ask about Catholicism, I asked about Christianity - what "exactly" to Christians believe?

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

"Certainly...in the case of Catholicism, I would consult the Bible"

I didn't ask about Catholicism, I asked about Christianity - what "exactly" to Christians believe?

Catholicism is Christian, sir . If you're asking what all Christians believe universally, I think the Bible would be the standard that all Christians could agree on...and as you already pointed out, the Bible makes it clear that Mary is not an object of worship...thusly, Catholics don't worship her.

 

[Booko]

"Certainly...in the case of Catholicism, I would consult the Bible"

I didn't ask about Catholicism, I asked about Christianity - what "exactly" to Christians believe?

When you ask about Mary, you automatically ask about Catholicism.

Protestants only trot her out for the Nativity Play, and then she doesn't have any lines.

In my denomination, the most prominent female figure was Ruth. And the interpretation of Ruth, I've found, shocks the heck out of Jews. That's what comes of sola scriptura.

 

[MaddLlama]

"Certainly...in the case of Catholicism, I would consult the Bible"

I didn't ask about Catholicism, I asked about Christianity - what "exactly" to Christians believe?

Catholicism and Protestantism are both sects of Christianity. Catholics consider Mary to be an important part of thier faith, whereas Protestants do not.

 

[logician]

There are of course theories that Catholics becamed "obsessed" with Mary as the representation of the "pure" woman, with Mary Magdalene being the antithesis of Mary as the "impure" woman. Along with this, of course, came the obsession that having sex outside of marriage was a sin, and for priests having sex period is a sin.
Of course there are the legends of the "temple" prostitutes of bygone years in the Catholic church, but we won't go deeply into that. I don't believe the Catholic obsession with Mary has been an entirely healthy one phsycologically.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

There are of course theories that Catholics becamed "obsessed" with Mary as the representation of the "pure" woman, with Mary Magdalene being the antithesis of Mary as the "impure" woman.

Individual Catholics have become obsessed with Mary, the Church itself has not taught this obsession.

Along with this, of course, came the obsession that having sex outside of marriage was a sin, and for priests having sex period is a sin.

No, Christians of just about every stripe opposed premarital sex prior to the 20th century.

Of course there are the legends of the "temple" prostitutes of bygone years in the Catholic church, but we won't go deeply into that. I don't believe the Catholic obsession with Mary has been an entirely healthy one phsycologically.

Nor does the Church.

 

[logician]

"Individual Catholics have become obsessed with Mary, the Church itself has not taught this obsession.
"

I disagree strongly with this statement - Mary is tied in strongly to all of the worship and tradition of the Catholic church.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

"Individual Catholics have become obsessed with Mary, the Church itself has not taught this obsession.
"

I disagree strongly with this statement - Mary is tied in strongly to all of the worship and tradition of the Catholic church.

Being "tied in" does not mean being the object of worship. Please provide one official Scripture or authoritative declaration of the Church where Mary is taught to be worshipped as God.

 

[logician]

"where Mary is taught to be worshipped as God"

Nowhere have I said Mary is worshipped as god, I've only said she is worshipped.

People can worship many things, Mary, I think , is one of those things.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

"where Mary is taught to be worshipped as God"

Nowhere have I said Mary is worshipped as god, I've only said she is worshipped.

People can worship many things, Mary, I think , is one of those things.

Then unfortunately, you think wrongly. Mary is venerated as a great woman and the Mother of our Savior, she is not worshipped...Christian worship is reserved exclusively for God.

 

[Booko]

There are of course theories that Catholics becamed "obsessed" with Mary as the representation of the "pure" woman, with Mary Magdalene being the antithesis of Mary as the "impure" woman.

Just fyi, but I believe the Orthodox Church never made the (incorrect) association between Mary Magdalene and the woman taken in adultery, so at most, your theory could only apply to the Western Church.

Along with this, of course, came the obsession that having sex outside of marriage was a sin, and for priests having sex period is a sin.

Every major religion teaches that having sex out of marriage is inappropriate. Sorry to burst your bubble on that, but that's the history, religiously speaking. I leave it to you to explain how the prohibition on sex outside of marriage in Zoroastrianism has anything to do with Mary. :sarcastic

As for priests having sex, again, that's only the Western Church. The Eastern Church does allow for married priests, though bishops have more limitations (and there is a Biblical passage that speaks to that point, so they have their reasons). Ask JamesthePersian for specifics on this. He's quite knowledgable about the history and praxis of his own faith, and explains things very well.

Oh, I forgot: even in the Roman Catholic Church there are married priests. Look up the Byzantine Rite.

The reason for priests remaining unmarried had more to do with the way family allegiances worked at the time that rule was put in place, and it was meant to ensure the priests did his job for the church first, and not his family. His life was dedicated to God -- not his relatives.

I don't believe the Catholic obsession with Mary has been an entirely healthy one phsycologically.

Again, you beg the question that Catholics are actually obsessed with Mary. If you want to argue this, you will need to put forward some evidence from recent times that this is actually the case. If you want to argue it was a historical practice, then bring on your history resources. In previous centuries, you might be able to make a case.

As for psychology, you should know that in Latin America, Mary has been an inspiration to millions of women in seeking equal rights as humans. She is seen there as a figure of liberation.

 

[Booko]

No, Christians of just about every stripe opposed premarital sex prior to the 20th century.

And Jews, and Muslims, and Parsees, and Hindus, and Buddhists, and Baha'is, and.....yes, well, it's rather a long list.

 

[Booko]

"where Mary is taught to be worshipped as God"

Nowhere have I said Mary is worshipped as god, I've only said she is worshipped.

Nix nox.

If you're a Christian, there's only ONE thing to worship, and that's God. To worship Mary is, therefore, to be worshipping her as God.

If you want to understand what Christians believe, you have to try and see from their perspective, not yours.

To do otherwise is as illogical as trying to understand behaviours of, say, a hunting/gathering society solely from the pov of a modern technology savvy, literate, "civilized" human.

It makes for lousy social anthropology. And what you appear to be doing in some places makes for no better results in social anthropology as applied to a group of religious adherents.

People can worship many things, Mary, I think , is one of those things.

The question is not whether someone "can" worship Mary. The question is whether they actually "do" worship Mary. And if some do worship Mary, are they doing so in error and against the teaching of the Church?

 

[James the Persian]

Seems like many of you missed the definition of worship I posted. There is no doubt Mary is an object of worship according to the definition, regardless of the naysayers.

Then you need a different definition of worship, because that isn't the one used in Christianity. You need to look up the difference between latreia and douleia. No Christians worship the Theotokos (Mary) or any other saint, but they do venerate them.

James

 

[James the Persian]

Just fyi, but I believe the Orthodox Church never made the (incorrect) association between Mary Magdalene and the woman taken in adultery, so at most, your theory could only apply to the Western Church.

Quite right. St. Mary Magdalene is, and always was, one of our most important saints, one of the Myrrhbearing women and known as Apostle to the Apostles (for taking the news of the Resurrection to them). She is not and never was confused with sinful woman. That was a conflation made in error by Pope St. Gregory the Great and was only ever accepted in his See, which, of course, was in the west. Eastern Christians never suffered from this misconception and yet we venerate the Theotokos in a similar way to the RCs (though not quite the same, we feel they have gone too far in some respects). Such veneration long pre-dates St. Gregory's error and so could not be a reaction to it.

As for priests having sex, again, that's only the Western Church. The Eastern Church does allow for married priests, though bishops have more limitations (and there is a Biblical passage that speaks to that point, so they have their reasons). Ask JamesthePersian for specifics on this. He's quite knowledgable about the history and praxis of his own faith, and explains things very well.

Yes, we have married priests (in fact they are preferred for normal parishes) just as Rome did up until the second millennium. Bishops are traditionally chosen from amongst the celibates and widowers because of the demands of their job and certain historical factors (guarding against certain past abuses an the like). This, however, is not doctrine but discipline and there is no reason why a bishop could not be married in future (though it is extremely unlikely in my opinion - after all we don't have any shortage of monastics).

Oh, I forgot: even in the Roman Catholic Church there are married priests. Look up the Byzantine Rite.

Very true. There are even some in the Latin rite as they sometimes allow married priests in other churches (say Anglican) to be priests in the RCC if they convert and, of course, they do not dissolve the marriage. Just as with our bishops RCC insistance on priestly celibacy is simply a discipline, not doctrine, and one which I should think is quite likely to change in future.

The reason for priests remaining unmarried had more to do with the way family allegiances worked at the time that rule was put in place, and it was meant to ensure the priests did his job for the church first, and not his family. His life was dedicated to God -- not his relatives.

True. In the feudal era the RCC also had a serious problem with priests and bishops handing on their titles to heirs, which was one of the reasons they went for this discipline. The problem was far less accute in the east and so we never followed suit.

James

 

[sojourner]

"I don't think any Christians 'officially' worship Mary"

from the dictionary

"wor·ship -shipped, -ship·ping.
–noun 1.reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred. 2.formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning. 3.adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success. 4.the object of adoring reverence or regard. 5.(initial capital letter

) British. a title of honor used in addressing or mentioning certain magistrates and others of high rank or station (usually prec. by Your, His, or Her). –verb (used with object) 6.to render religious reverence and homage to. 7.to feel an adoring reverence or regard for (any person or thing). –verb (used without object) 8.to render religious reverence and homage, as to a deity. 9.to attend services of divine worship. 10.to feel an adoring reverence or regard.
"

I think we can say that Mary is an object of worship.

Why do you hear every other month another "sighting" of the visage of the "virgin" Mary?

Worship: The service of praise, adoration, thanksgiving, and petition directed toward God [emphasis mine] through actions and attitudes. Chrisitian worship is trinitarian in form as praise is offered to God through Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. McKim, Westminster Dictionary of Theological Terms, 1996, Westminster John Knox Press

I think we can say that Mary is not an object of worship.

Since it is the Church that defines what is worship and what is not, the definition I have supplied is truer to what worship is, than the broad definition you supplied. We use the word "worship" in a more tightly-defined way than the general public does. If one talks about what a Christian worships, one must use the Christian definition of "worship."

 

[Quiddity]

Throughout history Marian Devotion and Marian movements have taken different forms in different regions. There was in fact a Marian movement who worshipped our Holy Mother in every sense of the word (Colliridians?). It’s infiltration into the Catholic Church was shot down at the Council of Ephesus in 432. Do some Catholics get out of hand with the Marian Devotion? Yes they do. But the matter has been resolved and clarified time and time again: Catholics are not to worship Mary!

The urge to seek out the feminine qualities in Catholicism is very ancient and to be expected. Many of the surrounding pagan religions had female gods and showed feminism much more then its Abrahamaic neighbors. I would personally argue that Christianity was never intended to be more male or female, but rather both. The Church itself is seen as female (Bride of Christ). The most elevated non-divine human is a female (Mary). And yet the priesthood is an all male priesthood. If I took the time I could probably give plenty of examples where a genderless God shows both male and female qualities through his people/Church. Maybe that will make a good article.

I clearly remember the feelings I had about Mary before I was catholic. I cringed at the thought of so many people praying to Mary when they had Christ. I just didn’t get it. It felt like Christ was being cheated on. I don’t plan on explaining how my shift (others have done a good job already) came about to feeling the way I did to being thankful that our Lord gave us her Mother. Instead I’ll just say that God decided to give the most precious things He has to us all. He gave Himself in Body (Eucharist) and Spirit (Holy Spirit), gave His Mother, His family (Saints/Church), His Words (Scripture and Tradition).

~Victor

 

[Ðanisty]

In my book praying to any entity is worshipping it, no matter what kind of horse you call it.

Then you should never expect to understand other people.

Maybe to Catholics it technically is not worship, but to the rest of it is.

Who is "the rest of us"? I'm not Catholic and I can see that it is not worship. Be careful when you speak for other people.

So, if it isn't woship to the Catholics (who are the ones who are doing it, and understanding why they do what they do), but it is to the people on the outside looking in (the people who have very little idea what Catholics actually do and believe), why is your definition and understand correct, and the Catholic understanding of Catholic doctrine and practice wrong?

Since when do atheists get to decide what Catholics, or any other religion for that matter, believe?

Nobody gets to decide for anyone else what they believe.

My reading of the bible certainly makes it seem that Catholics have taken the veneration (or worship) of Mary way over the top, compared to what little exists biblically about her

So what exactly are you accusing them of? Common sense? The ability to see the bigger picture? Feminism? I don't get it. The bible doesn't have to say anything about Mary. She is Christ's mother and if you love Christ, it only makes sense to thank his mother for her sacrifice.

(which certainly is fiction, unless you are unscientifically inclined).

Simply not true. I know a lot of religious people who are scientifically minded. The two things are entirely separate and it is possible to believe in both.

I disagree strongly with this statement - Mary is tied in strongly to all of the worship and tradition of the Catholic church.

But the church specifically teaches to honor Mary and not to worship her. Any Catholic who worships Mary is clearly making a mistake.