Why do descriptions of heaven seem highly materialistic?

[dyanaprajna2011]

I'm not sure if this really matters to those who believe in a type of heaven, but this is something that bothers me. It seems to me that religions that teach one not to be attached to the world or worldly possessions, has some of the most worldly descriptions of heaven. This seems to present a sort of paradox: if one is not to be materialistic as part of one's virtue, then how does it equate to being so in a paradise-like existence? How can these two seemingly contradictory ideas be reconciled?

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Flawed people produce flawed ideas.

 

[Ingledsva]

I'm not sure if this really matters to those who believe in a type of heaven, but this is something that bothers me. It seems to me that religions that teach one not to be attached to the world or worldly possessions, has some of the most worldly descriptions of heaven. This seems to present a sort of paradox: if one is not to be materialistic as part of one's virtue, then how does it equate to being so in a paradise-like existence? How can these two seemingly contradictory ideas be reconciled?

Well, they are using it to placate the downtrodden masses.



You're at the bottom of the heap now - BUT - just wait tell you get to heaven!




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[Sees]

Well, they are using it to placate the downtrodden masses.



You're at the bottom of the heap now - BUT - just wait tell you get to heaven!




*

Yep too often.

How much better would it be instead if what we make of things in this life and how we treat others will echo throughout eternity or endlessly replay. Stop the begging, pointing fingers, get off your butt and get some life

The begger, coward, woe is me attitudes get the green light too often in religious traditions. People want rewarded for simply being crapped out and believing in a couple old truth-claims. Oh please
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[Ingledsva]

Yep too often.

How much better would it be instead if what we make of things in this life and how we treat others will echo throughout eternity or endlessly replay. Stop the begging, pointing fingers, get off your butt and get some life

The begger, coward, woe is me attitudes get the green light too often in religious traditions. People want rewarded for simply being crapped out and believing in a couple old truth-claims. Oh please
...

Wouldn't happen to be Asatru would you?




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[Sees]

Wouldn't happen to be Asatru would you?




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Of course but I play with all sorts of titles and stuff. If I had to represent my self on a census I would mark the Asatru/Forn Sid/Heathen box. I do like some private messages I get asking if I am something wildly different

This avatar is probably too give away even for people who don't know the spirit of the traditions, unlike your self who knows it well

 

[Virus]

because in this life materialism brings great evil with it, in heaven it does not. The purpose of striving for the two is also very different.

 

[psychoslice]

Well of course heaven is just wishful thinking, and that thinking knows nothing beyond the mind, hence the materialistic view of heaven.

 

[Tumah]

I'm not sure if this really matters to those who believe in a type of heaven, but this is something that bothers me. It seems to me that religions that teach one not to be attached to the world or worldly possessions, has some of the most worldly descriptions of heaven. This seems to present a sort of paradox: if one is not to be materialistic as part of one's virtue, then how does it equate to being so in a paradise-like existence? How can these two seemingly contradictory ideas be reconciled?

Could you provide some references or sources for these statements? Or maybe a little context?

 

[Sha'irullah]

Because all that material bound being know of is the material world. Simple answer

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

because in this life materialism brings great evil with it, in heaven it does not. The purpose of striving for the two is also very different.

Either materialism is evil or it's not. If it's one way for one realm, it only follows that it's the same for another realm. In other words, if it's evil for this material realm, then it should be even moreso for a heavenly realm.

Could you provide some references or sources for these statements? Or maybe a little context?

Take the Christian view of heaven, for example. Everyone gets a mansion, on streets of gold, with gates of jewels, huge kingly feasts. Or in Islam, rivers of milk, honey, and wine, with 72 virgins. Greed, gluttony, and lust.

 

[Tumah]

Take the Christian view of heaven, for example. Everyone gets a mansion, on streets of gold, with gates of jewels, huge kingly feasts. Or in Islam, rivers of milk, honey, and wine, with 72 virgins. Greed, gluttony, and lust.

Well, I guess those are the obvious ones. But its only two. Although granted, they happen to also be the largest.

 

[Sees]

Either materialism is evil or it's not. If it's one way for one realm, it only follows that it's the same for another realm. In other words, if it's evil for this material realm, then it should be even moreso for a heavenly realm.



Take the Christian view of heaven, for example. Everyone gets a mansion, on streets of gold, with gates of jewels, huge kingly feasts. Or in Islam, rivers of milk, honey, and wine, with 72 virgins. Greed, gluttony, and lust.

Foods and "booty" was more scarce back then :biglaugh:

 

[SkylarHunter]

I've never seen a description of heaven in the bible but I guess people imagine a place custom made for them, something that matches their personal wishes.
I don't believe in hell and don't expect to go to heaven but if I had that sort of ideal I would want to go to a place that looked like Hawaii.

P.S - I've always wondered if the 72 virgins the misogynistic muslin men expect to find in their heaven are the same for all of them...

 

[Vouthon]

Take the Christian view of heaven, for example. Everyone gets a mansion, on streets of gold, with gates of jewels, huge kingly feasts.

While I cannot speak for all denominations, I can tell you with a high degree of certainty that Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran and Anglican Christianity does not posit such a materialistic, corporeal view of heaven.

Neither does Judaism, for that matter. The "kingly" stuff that you speak of is imagery, trying to communicate spiritual truths through language recognisable to most people. As an example, in the Jewish Talmud you will find the following statement in reference to heaven: "The World to Come does not have eating, drinking, nor sexual relations. Rather, the righteous will sit with their crowns on their heads, basking in (lit., 'benefiting from') the shine of the Divine Presence" ('Shechina') (Brachos 17a).

As you can see, the Rabbi in question here quite firmly states that there is no "eating, drinking" or sex in heaven, in other words it is utterly removed from anything in this world but then goes on to utilize the imagery of "crowns" and "thrones", to express participation in the "brightness" of the Divine Presence.

The great medieval Jewish theologian Maimonides commented on this passage thus:

"...In the World to Come there will be no bodies and physical forms, but only the incorporeal souls of the righteous -- just like the angels of [G-d's] service. Since there will be no bodies, there will be no eating, drinking, or any of the things which human bodies require in this world. Likewise, none of the matters which are relevant to bodies in this world will be relevant to it -- such as sitting, standing, sleeping , death, sadness, laughter, and the like...And that which [the Sages] said, 'the righteous will *sit*' was metaphorical, meaning, the souls of the righteous will be found there, without work or effort. So too that which they said 'their crowns will be on their heads,' the intent is that the knowledge that they have acquired [in their lifetimes], that on account of it they merited life in the World to Come, will be with them. This is their 'crown', as the matter which Solomon said, 'with the crown which his mother crowned him' (Song of Songs 3:11)...What is [the meaning of] that which [the Sages] said, 'basking in the shine of the Divine Presence?' That they will perceive and comprehend the truth of the Holy One, blessed be He, which they cannot know while they are in a dark and lowly body..."

- Maimonides (1138–1204), Jewish philosopher, Torah scholar & rabbi

I'll address Catholic views of the afterlife in my next post.

 

[Vouthon]

In Catholic Christianity, heaven is called "supreme beatitude" the latter word being Latin for "a state of utmost bliss" and it consists of the eternal enjoyment of the "Beatific Vision". This state of being is an eternal and unmediated perception of the Essence of God; which the blessed participate in and are divinized by through grace.

Saint Thomas Aquinas explained what this supreme state of blessedness is like, in his Summa Contra Gentiles:

"...If God's essence is to be seen, the intelligence must see it in the divine essence itself, so that in such vision the divine essence shall be at once the object which is seen and that whereby it is seen. This is the immediate vision of God that is promised us in Scripture: 'We see now in a glass darkly, but then face to face' (i Cor. xiii, 2): a text absurd to take in a corporeal sense, as though we could imagine a bodily face in Deity itself, whereas it has been shown that God is incorporeal...Nor again is it possible for us with our bodily face to see God, since the bodily sense of sight, implanted in our face, can be only of bodily things. Thus then shalt we see God face to face, in that we shall have an immediate vision of Him, as of a man whom we see face to face. By this vision we are singularly assimilated to God, and are partakers in His happiness: for this is His happiness, that He essentially understands His own substance. Hence it is said: 'When He shall appear, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is' (i John iii, 2). And the Lord said: 'I prepare for you as my Father hath prepared for me a kingdom, that ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom' (Luke xxii, 29). This cannot be understood of bodily meat and drink, but of that food which is taken at the table of Wisdom, whereof it is said by Wisdom: Eat ye my bread and drink the wine that I have mingled for you (Prov. ix, 5). They therefore eat and drink at the table of God, who enjoy the same happiness wherewith God is happy, seeing Him in the way which He sees Himself..."

- Saint Thomas Aquinas (1225–1274), Summa Contra Gentiles

 

[Tumah]

While I cannot speak for all denominations, I can tell you with a high degree of certainty that Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran and Anglican Christianity does not posit such a materialistic, corporeal view of heaven.

Neither does Judaism, for that matter. The "kingly" stuff that you speak of is imagery, trying to communicate spiritual truths through language recognisable to most people. As an example, in the Jewish Talmud you will find the following statement in reference to heaven: "The World to Come does not have eating, drinking, nor sexual relations. Rather, the righteous will sit with their crowns on their heads, basking in (lit., 'benefiting from') the shine of the Divine Presence" ('Shechina') (Brachos 17a).

As you can see, the Rabbi in question here quite firmly states that there is no "eating, drinking" or sex in heaven, in other words it is utterly removed from anything in this world but then goes on to utilize the imagery of "crowns" and "thrones", to express participation in the "brightness" of the Divine Presence.

The great medieval Jewish theologian Maimonides commented on this passage thus:



I'll address Catholic views of the afterlife in my next post.

I kind of wonder why you though took it on yourself to provide the Jewish idea of Heaven. I'm sure there are one or two of us here who could have done that somewhat better.

Also, it would have seemed more scholarly if you would have just quoted the passage from the Talmud from within Maimonides right where you put those three dots which is where its found. The way you did it, anyone who is familiar with the Talmud will immediately realize that your quote should have three dots in it to indicate the part you left out in the middle.

Moral of the story: Render unto the Jews the things that are the Jews.

 

[Vouthon]

I kind of wonder why you though took it on yourself to provide the Jewish idea of Heaven. I'm sure there are one or two of us here who could have done that somewhat better.

Oh, by far as opposed to 'somewhat'. I wasn't claiming to know the Jewish view in-depth or with any thorough understanding. Hence why I didn't explain it myself really, I simply quoted from the source.

It was just something I recalled from reading Maimonides and I thought it was relevant to the topic, since he disputed any materialistic view of heaven quite firmly and based this on the Talmud as well as the Hebrew Bible. I enjoyed reading his interpretations and thought that he went to the heart of the matter.

I am not a scholar (and I'd say that openly). I was only going to lift his quotation from the Talmud at first, but then I decided to post his interpretation as well since it explained it, which is why I did the ellipses (as I had already quoted his reference and didn't want to repeat it).

 

[Knight of Albion]

'Materialistic'? Now that's a strange viewpoint to me.

One of the counter-arguments levelled at NDE accounts is that they must be the product of a wandering mind i.e. wishful thinking.

I've been interested in NDEs for a long time and I've read a great many of them, but I've yet to hear of any NDEs ever that involved material things - wealth/money, gold, jewellery, cars, etc. Come to that I've never heard of any NDEs that involved sex or naked women either! Which to my mind drives a coach and horses through the 'wishful thinking' theory. After all, if the mind was left to run wild unfettered - considering what goes on in most people's minds ....

[There are a number of works that deal with life in the beyond. Percy Welsford's 'The Golden Key' is the most beautiful one I've come across and I'd personally recommend this book if the subject matter is your thing.]

So 'materialistic', no.

Orthodoxy likes to put a spin on things because it suits their ends.
True, maybe some people are 'hedging their bets' and expecting to live like kings in the beyond. They're likely to be disappointed. The spirit body reflects the spirit within. You are known for what and who you are. There can be no pretence.
Besides, the more you emerge yourself in matters of the spirit, the less hold materialism has on you.

 

[Mycroft]

Because it seems highly like heaven was designed by human males, for human males. And there is nothing that seems to temp a human being more than materialistic riches. Streets of Gold, having two wives. It definitely seems to be a very human concept.