Why do feminist women still expect men to pay for a date?

[Rational Agnostic]

Is this really a thing? Do you have some statistics to back up your argument?

I don't think so.

I apologize up front. I'm so tired of unsubstantiated nonsense being presented as a worthwhile talking point when in fact.........

It's nonsense.

Yet it's so nice to see that the thread just simply ran with an unsubstantiated piece of nothingness like it was actually real.

Post it on the Onion next time.

And maybe everyone else will actually read an OP and ****ing think about it before they post utter horse****.

But hey, a needless thumbs up salute to posting nonsense in order to create a needless talking point.

Jesus effing Christ already. So many stupid fallacies in the OP but hey........let's just play pretend!

There were no "arguments" presented in my OP; only thoughtful questions that you made no effort to answer.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Honestly I am not very impressed by the "masculinity" of men who want to, essentially, be paid back for giving women an equal status they should have had in the first place. Wanting petty revenge for imagined slights is not how my father taught me to be a good man, but I suppose to each their own.

What are you talking about? I never said women should pay the bill. Why not split the bill?

 

[Drolefille]

There were no "arguments" presented in my OP; only thoughtful questions that you made no effort to answer.

Those aren't thoughtful questions. They're assumptions. If you wish to write a hypothetical, do so.

I'm tired of "Just Asking Questions" as a method of propogating a world view.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Those aren't thoughtful questions. They're assumptions. If you wish to write a hypothetical, do so.

I'm tired of "Just Asking Questions" as a method of propogating a world view.

What "world view" do you think I am propagating?

 

[Drolefille]

What "world view" do you think I am propagating?

One where feminists are hypocrites and have moved on to female superiority.


There are a dozen other reasons why it could be happening but you haven't actually demonstrated that it does beyond anecdote. The individuals you may have met who do this, you'd have to ask them. On a societal level you need to demonstrate the phenomenon exists, then look at determining why.

The part where you jumped straight to your hypothesis, that's your world view. Here I'll do it!

Why do people post things criticizing feminists for random weird things? Is it because they're insecure with the equality of women? Is it because they can't actually demonstrate feminism being bad so they have to make things up? Are they lacking education in forming real arguments? I'm just asking!

That method is so much easier than coming up with actual sincere questions and responses.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

One where feminists are hypocrites and have moved on to female superiority.


There are a dozen other reasons why it could be happening but you haven't actually demonstrated that it does beyond anecdote. The individuals you may have met who do this, you'd have to ask them. On a societal level you need to demonstrate the phenomenon exists, then look at determining why.

The part where you jumped straight to your hypothesis, that's your world view. Here I'll do it!

Why do people post things criticizing feminists for random weird things? Is it because they're insecure with the equality of women? Is it because they can't actually demonstrate feminism being bad so they have to make things up? Are they lacking education in forming real arguments? I'm just asking!

That method is so much easier than coming up with actual sincere questions and responses.

The term "equality of women" is nuanced. Do I believe in equal rights for women? Of course. Do I believe men and women are equal? Of course not; there are many differences in gender, and stating that "the genders are equal" is a sweeping, inaccurate generalization. There are many differences between men and women, both physical and psychological. Men, on average, are physically stronger than women, and can generally accomplish tasks that require physical labor better than women. Women, on average, are better at nurturing young children, and are on average more emotionally intelligent and empathetic than men. These differences are biological facts. I support feminism if it is defined as giving women equal political and social rights with men. I disagree with feminists who believe that women are every bit as capable as men in every facet of life. I also disagree with those who state that men are every bit as capable as women in every facet of life.

 

[Drolefille]

I highly suggest, in the future, instead of the JAQ style of post, if you want to have a discussion on the topic, you lead with something like this instead.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

The term "equality of women" is nuanced. Do I believe in equal rights for women? Of course. Do I believe men and women are equal? Of course not; there are many differences in gender, and stating that "the genders are equal" is a sweeping, inaccurate generalization. There are many differences between men and women, both physical and psychological. Men, on average, are physically stronger than women, and can generally accomplish tasks that require physical labor better than women. Women, on average, are better at nurturing young children, and are on average more emotionally intelligent and empathetic than men. These differences are biological facts. I support feminism if it is defined as giving women equal political and social rights with men. I disagree with feminists who believe that women are every bit as capable as men in every facet of life. I also disagree with those who state that men are every bit as capable as women in every facet of life.

Equal being exactly the same is only true in math I think, not sociology.

To say that men have, on average, more physical strength than men must mean women shouldn't be in combat roles, and that women are, on average, more emotionally empathetic so men shouldn't be domestic parents, are both generalizing and ignoring clear exceptions.

Equality means, to me, evaluation of individual merit, not a generalized view of sex and gender.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Why is it that feminist women who claim to believe in gender equality still often expect men to pay for their dinner, even though they have already declared themselves to be entirely independent from men and absolutely not in need of any assistance from men, particularly with regard to finances? If they believe that they are truly and entirely not in need of men, and are entirely self-sufficient, why are they still demanding the man covers their expenses? Or, has the "feminist" movement, which originally focused on gender equality, now turned into a "female superiority" movement in which women who have now declared that they are equal to and not in any way in need of men, also demand special treatment from men?

Eh. Erasing gender roles is difficult. Especially one that is more rooted in primal sexual displays. And what I mean by that is who is the agressor.

If a woman asks a man on a date then the woman should be willing to pay. If a man asks a woman out on a date he should be willing to pay. That is the unspoken rule of the dating world. This is true for homosexual interactions as well. If two men go on a date the one who asked to go out is more expected to pay or at least be willing. When two women go out on a date they follow the same pattern. The issue generally is that men are significantly more likely to ask a woman out than a woman is to ask a man.

This is due to an extremely old and well ingrained (potentially genetically wired) that women seek to attract mates and males compete for mates. It is typically expected that women do not ask men out on dates and must express openess in other ways in hopes that a man would ask her out. A man is expected to ask women out.

This is why men have to deal with a significant amount of rejection while women typically do not. I would like to see some studies done on this phenomenon and see how ingrainted it is within nature or is it more coddled in nuture. It seems aparent that it is a mixture of both but I personally am curious about to what degree.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

If a woman asks a man on a date then the woman should be willing to pay. If a man asks a woman out on a date he should be willing to pay. That is the unspoken rule of the dating world. This is true for homosexual interactions as well. If two men go on a date the one who asked to go out is more expected to pay or at least be willing. When two women go out on a date they follow the same pattern. The issue generally is that men are significantly more likely to ask a woman out than a woman is to ask a man.

This makes me really glad I missed on the dating scene. I married the first guy I ever dated (we were childhood friends) and we always treated dates like every other friendly meetings. That is, everyone pays their own bill.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

This makes me really glad I missed on the dating scene. I married the first guy I ever dated (we were childhood friends) and we always treated dates like every other friendly meetings. That is, everyone pays their own bill.

Yeah. Though its always acceptable for people to pay for themselves. About half the time in my experience they do. But the rule rings true even in non-romantic interactions. For example a close buddy of mine is having a rough day and I invite him out to the pub for a few pints I buy the first few rounds. A buisiness meeting at a high dollar resturant the one who called you out has to pay. I'm not going to listen to a sales pitch AND pay for my own steak.

 

[Thanda]

Honestly I am not very impressed by the "masculinity" of men who want to, essentially, be paid back for giving women an equal status they should have had in the first place. Wanting petty revenge for imagined slights is not how my father taught me to be a good man, but I suppose to each their own.

What masculinity are you impressed with?

 

[Thanda]

Because the patriarchy hurts men and misogyny can be internalized.

Also as noted, I'd like to see statistical evidence that such is common.

Ah, the mythical patriarchy.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Yeah. Though its always acceptable for people to pay for themselves. About half the time in my experience they do. But the rule rings true even in non-romantic interactions. For example a close buddy of mine is having a rough day and I invite him out to the pub for a few pints I buy the first few rounds. A buisiness meeting at a high dollar resturant the one who called you out has to pay. I'm not going to listen to a sales pitch AND pay for my own steak.

Yeah I can see exceptions to the bill paying thing (Such as birthdays or some other gift. Like I would tell a buddy I want to buy then a drink beforehand.) I just never considered dating to be one of those exceptions. Maybe because, in my mind, dating was a mutual investment by both.

 

[Thanda]

Yes; think about it. A man pays for his date/girlfriend/wife's drinks and meal, buys her expensive gifts and jewelry all of the time, etc. Buys her expensive birthday and Christmas presents. Are these just innocent random acts of kindness or are we (as men) doing this in the hopes of getting something in return? What might that "something" that we are hoping for be? Dating and marriage are prostitution in disguise, yet a man buying everything for his girlfriend/wife is culturally accepted, while prostitution is illegal in most areas. Makes no logical sense. In fact, when you think about it, is it not more honest to tell a woman up front what you are hoping for and then fork over the money and get on with it?

Because there is actually a social good that is derived from people assisting each other as part of a marriage .

 

[Drolefille]

Ah, the mythical patriarchy.

Ah, the passive aggressiveness.

It's a sociological concept. You can call it mythical, but that's not what that word means.

 

[jeager106]

Tradition and accepted good manners.
Besides I want the lady I date to feel special.
If I'm very good at making her feel special perhaps she'll make me
feel special?
That's as far as I'm going with that part of the dating game.
In my youth I was quite good at making ladies feel special and they
were very, very, good at making me feel special.

 

[Politesse]

What masculinity are you impressed with?

A good man, to me, is characterized by authenticity and honesty, courage in the face of danger even to the point of sacrifice; he takes decisive but carefully considered action, and he gives (and earns) respect and love fairly.

 

[thinwhiteduke]

Why is it that feminist women who claim to believe in gender equality still often expect men to pay for their dinner, even though they have already declared themselves to be entirely independent from men and absolutely not in need of any assistance from men, particularly with regard to finances? If they believe that they are truly and entirely not in need of men, and are entirely self-sufficient, why are they still demanding the man covers their expenses? Or, has the "feminist" movement, which originally focused on gender equality, now turned into a "female superiority" movement in which women who have now declared that they are equal to and not in any way in need of men, also demand special treatment from men?

BINGO ,DING DING DING !!!

this was another propaganda invented gender fallacy.

women have been trained to expect men to work and pay for all their crap while they sit at home and gripe or they get a job and only want men who make more then them ..to again still pay them to date them.
money was a failed human construct in the first place. theres no natural law that says dating needs to be paid for by a man as some gender specific need.
men have been trained to fear attractive women and wome have been trained to expect the world for just existing.
media/propaganda is to blame for it all.
yes, I'm angry,jealous and alone, so FU ,whats it to you lol.


also..of course the economy goes bad when you tell women they need to/can work to be equal, so now half the jobs are gone for the rest of the men who cant get any lol

thats some rough math but there is some truth there

 

[SomeRandom]

BINGO ,DING DING DING !!!

this was another propaganda invented gender fallacy.

women have been trained to expect men to work and pay for all their crap while they sit at home and gripe or they get a job and only want men who make more then them ..to again still pay them to date them.
money was a failed human construct in the first place. theres no natural law that says dating needs to be paid for by a man as some gender specific need.
men have been trained to fear attractive women and wome have been trained to expect the world for just existing.
media/propaganda is to blame for it all.
yes, I'm angry,jealous and alone, so FU ,whats it to you lol.

also..of course the economy goes bad when you tell women they need to/can work to be equal, so now half the jobs are gone for the rest of the men who cant get any lol

thats some rough math but there is some truth there

Well perhaps not all of us would like to live 1950s style raising 12 kids on one wage, feeding them nothing but wild rabbit stew and using ferrets to hunt just to survive the winter?

Cost of living has only increased, minimum wage does not always reflect that and hasn't for a while now. If the powers that be allowed people not to live in poverty on one wage (and sometimes even two!) perhaps the job market wouldn't be as competitive as it is now. Since ya know, people need to live and eat. And this idea that one wage was enough to support a household at some point in time is vehemently denied by pretty much any working class family who remembers the 40s. At least the ones round here. And our standard of living isn't exactly third world.

I mean when you have working class and farmer brat Baby Boomers recollect their childhood memories of living in one income households during these Leave it to Beaver-esque times, it does deflate that whole "a simpler wholesome time" sentiment when they consistently tell you that they not only went without, but they lived much like the Depression Era. Where they scrimped and saved and salvaged every single solitary ounce of food, money and electricity just to get to the end of the week.