Why do Gentiles assume they should follow the ten commandments?

[Shermana]

Not one is freed from the penalty of sin--all die. The wages sin pays is death. I do believe its only at Harmageddon when the righteous are brought through, those will never have to die--That is what Jesus meant when he said some of you standing here will never die( Jesus was referring to the righteous in that statement not the individuals standing there, because all of them died.

I think Jesus was saying many would still be alive 40 years later when the Temple and Hasmonean Kingdom was being destroyed. I think Jesus's warnings of the "end of the age" are oft confused with "End of the world", the "age" ended around 70-130.

 

[sojourner]

So you're saying that "Christians" are ultimately free to do whatever they please?

First of all, once again, no, I'm not saying that "Christians" are ultimately free to do whatever they please. I don't know who these "Christians" are. I know of no group who identify as Christians to either refer to themselves with quotation marks, nor do I know of any who deserve for others to refer to them with quotation marks.

The use of quotation marks, when referring to a person or group of persons, implies fictitiousness -- that the person or group really doesn't exist. In the first place, this simply isn't true. Christians comprise, I believe, the largest concentration of those who identify as faithful to any religion. You can ask any number of people you meet in this country, and many of them will tell you both that they identify as Christian and that they are real people. Moreover, they will tell you that their faith and the practice of it is valid. Obviously, the government and other agencies (such as hospitals and banks) identify the faith, the people who practice it, and the various institutions by which it is known, as real. Otherwise, banks would not loan money to fictitious people and entities. The government would not grant 501c3 status to fictitious entities, and fictitious entities would not be allowed to own property. Therefore, we must conclude that Christians are real, the faith is valid, and the institutions that organize them are, likewise, real.

Second, when a person or group is dismissed in such a fashion, it is an act of violence upon that person or group. Every person has a right to exist, to identify as part of a particular group, and to govern themselves as they see fit in this country. The use of quotation marks is no better than Jim Crow laws, or the selection of Jews for termination in Germany, or the violence perpetrated upon those who identify as homosexual, who wish to be married in the eyes of the state. The use of quotation marks says, "Move to the back of the bus." The use of them says, "Whites only at this water fountain." The use of them says, "You can't really be married." The use of them implies that you, somehow, have the authority to decide what is or is not real or valid.

This dehumanization through dismissal and judgment amounts to nothing more or less than bullying. It is subtle and may seem innocuous, but it is, nonetheless, bullying and cannot be either condoned or tolerated. There are, on this forum, many members who identify as Christian. The majority of us are fair-minded and treat those of differing religious stances with respect. We don't use quotation marks when referring to "atheists," or "Muslims," or even "Nazarenes." Why? Because we feel it's unfair and the mark of a small attitude. More importantly, it is bullying. Bullying is against forum rules.

You may hold us in whatever regard you wish, but when you speak publicly of us, I hope that you will be a bigger person and speak respectfully. Bigotry is so 20th century.

Second, isn't everyone ultimately free to do whatever they please -- even Jews?
What Paul was saying was that sin is tied to law. Where there is no law to say "thou shalt" or "thou shalt not," there is no sin. Babies are told, "Don't touch the stove." If they do, they "go against" parental directives. Adults aren't told, "Don't touch the stove," because they're expected to have enough situational awareness to "do the right thing." Christians are spiritual adults. We're expected to have enough spiritual situational awareness to "do the right thing." We don't need to be told, "Don't kill people." We're supposed to know that killing goes against the grain of living in an attitude of love.

Yes and statements like that are more evidence that Paul was a false apostle.

False by what standard? An apostle is someone who is sent with authority. Paul was such a person. Perhaps you should simply bully him too and refer to him as an "apostle."

 

[Nakosis]

How? Xtians don't, by and large, follow the law.

You mean Hebrew law.

Law is not law is not law.

Jesus when talking to the Pharisee referred to as "their" law a few times as if to differentiate it from God's law. So yes I think Hebrew laws are more a civil laws for their nation. The Hebrew Bible contain civil law for the province of Judea. Not necessarily laws for anyone else to follow.

Then when Jesus said the law would be fulfilled he was likely referring to Prophecy. Not civil laws.

Finally Jesus provided several of his own commandments for his followers. Laws of sorts. Knowing many who may have good intentions of following Jesus but not yet made righteous.

If they were righteous they wouldn't need any laws. Then, like today just because someone claims to follow Jesus, even in honest intent doesn't necessarily make them righteous. Jesus provided guidelines for people to judge by even in their unrighteous state.

 

[sojourner]

You mean Hebrew law.

Law is not law is not law.

Jesus when talking to the Pharisee referred to as "their" law a few times as if to differentiate it from God's law. So yes I think Hebrew laws are more a civil laws for their nation. The Hebrew Bible contain civil law for the province of Judea. Not necessarily laws for anyone else to follow.

Then when Jesus said the law would be fulfilled he was likely referring to Prophecy. Not civil laws.

Finally Jesus provided several of his own commandments for his followers. Laws of sorts. Knowing many who may have good intentions of following Jesus but not yet made righteous.

If they were righteous they wouldn't need any laws. Then, like today just because someone claims to follow Jesus, even in honest intent doesn't necessarily make them righteous. Jesus provided guidelines for people to judge by even in their unrighteous state.

Well, that is the OP -- Xtians following the Hebraic Law.

 

[Nakosis]

Not one is freed from the penalty of sin--all die. The wages sin pays is death. I do believe its only at Harmageddon when the righteous are brought through, those will never have to die--That is what Jesus meant when he said some of you standing here will never die( Jesus was referring to the righteous in that statement not the individuals standing there, because all of them died.

Yes, well so what does that mean?
The body dies. It is physical and impermanent.
The penalty of being in physical form?

All physical form is temporary. If you invest it it you will lose it. What do you think is being paid here?

 

[Shermana]

First of all, once again, no, I'm not saying that "Christians" are ultimately free to do whatever they please. I don't know who these "Christians" are. I know of no group who identify as Christians to either refer to themselves with quotation marks, nor do I know of any who deserve for others to refer to them with quotation marks.

So what is the penalty for a Christian who commits adultery if they don't have to obey the Law? As for quotation remarks, what you think a person 'deserves" is not exactly objective. I appreciate this long piece of your subjective opinion about how nasty "bullies" don't agree with what you and other Christians may claim, but I fail to see the actual debate or rebuttal in anything you say below:

The use of quotation marks, when referring to a person or group of persons, implies fictitiousness -- that the person or group really doesn't exist.

Says who? It implies you simply don't agree with their use of the title. What may not exist is the truth behind their claims, and to say what is and isn't Christian, we have whole threads for that.

In the first place, this simply isn't true. Christians comprise, I believe, the largest concentration of those who identify as faithful to any religion.

Answering your own straw man is always fun.

You can ask any number of people you meet in this country, and many of them will tell you both that they identify as Christian and that they are real people.

And if you ask them if Mormons are Christian, they will often disagree. The use of the title is for another thread, which there are many. Would you like a link?

Moreover, they will tell you that their faith and the practice of it is valid. Obviously, the government and other agencies (such as hospitals and banks) identify the faith, the people who practice it, and the various institutions by which it is known, as real. Otherwise, banks would not loan money to fictitious people and entities. The government would not grant 501c3 status to fictitious entities, and fictitious entities would not be allowed to own property. Therefore, we must conclude that Christians are real, the faith is valid, and the institutions that organize them are, likewise, real.

Indeed, it must be great fun attacking your own straw man. If you want to participate in the discussions about the meaning of the word "Christian" and whether or not the title should be used or hyphenated to identify Pauline-Christians and JW-Christians and Mormon-Christians, I can link to some great threads.

Second, when a person or group is dismissed in such a fashion, it is an act of violence upon that person or group

Ah, now it's an act of violence to say you disagree with someone's claims of being Christian. I hear the martyr complex rising.

. Every person has a right to exist, to identify as part of a particular group, and to govern themselves as they see fit in this country. The use of quotation marks is no better than Jim Crow laws, or the selection of Jews for termination in Germany, or the violence perpetrated upon those who identify as homosexual, who wish to be married in the eyes of the state. The use of quotation marks says, "Move to the back of the bus." The use of them says, "Whites only at this water fountain." The use of them says, "You can't really be married." The use of them implies that you, somehow, have the authority to decide what is or is not real or valid.

That's a nice opinion, would you like to participate on actual threads that discuss this? I have a right to say that people who call themselves Christian aren't Christian, just like you do, just like all the Christians who call Mormons non-Christian. It's not "violence". I can call your dismissal of my own beliefs as "violence" by some twisted logic too. I like how you think that calling "Christians" with quotations is the same kind of violence as physically attacking homosexuals. I'd love to see how much support you get for that statement. Can I use that quote with your permission to start a new thread?

This dehumanization through dismissal and judgment amounts to nothing more or less than bullying. It is subtle and may seem innocuous, but it is, nonetheless, bullying and cannot be either condoned or tolerated. There are, on this forum, many members who identify as Christian. The majority of us are fair-minded and treat those of differing religious stances with respect. We don't use quotation marks when referring to "atheists," or "Muslims," or even "Nazarenes." Why? Because we feel it's unfair and the mark of a small attitude. More importantly, it is bullying. Bullying is against forum rules.

Boo hoo hoo. They've been bullied because someone disagreed with their claims of being "Christian". Sob sob. Cry me a river. I have a right to "bully" anyone in this case. If you want to say I'm not a "Christian", you have that right, but if you're going to do so without discussing the scriptural and logical implications and make a debate about it, then that would be bullying perhaps, as if Christians are truly bullied and don't bully. I however leave the subject to actual debate. Again, would you like links to threads on this discussion where you can tell them to shut down the whole thread because it's bullying? Using "Christians" in quotation marks is not against forum rules.

You may hold us in whatever regard you wish, but when you speak publicly of us, I hope that you will be a bigger person and speak respectfully. Bigotry is so 20th century.

I am proudly a 'bigot" in its actual definition. You are a "bigot" as well in its actual definition. Anyone with an opinion and a lack of tolerance to other opinions (i.e. not tolerating someone else's bigotry) is a bigot. A person who disapproves of racist people's opinions is a bigot. I like bigotry. Without it there'd be no debate. By not actually debating my stance and trying to make swipes instead without addressing the actual concerns, you are providing a fine example of bigotry in action. I have a right to publicly state how I regard those who try to claim the word "Christian". Once again, would you like threads where this issue is discussed in detail of what it means to be "Christian"?

Second, isn't everyone ultimately free to do whatever they please -- even Jews?

Robbery and rape included? No.

What Paul was saying was that sin is tied to law.

And if you don't have to obey the Law or have the Law at all, that means you are free to sin. Right?

Where there is no law to say "thou shalt" or "thou shalt not," there is no sin. Babies are told, "Don't touch the stove." If they do, they "go against" parental directives. Adults aren't told, "Don't touch the stove," because they're expected to have enough situational awareness to "do the right thing." Christians are spiritual adults. We're expected to have enough spiritual situational awareness to "do the right thing." We don't need to be told, "Don't kill people." We're supposed to know that killing goes against the grain of living in an attitude of love.

Why are we supposed to know that but not coveting? I never learned that coveting was a problem until the Bible said so. Paul agreed. Am I supposed to know the Sabbath is to be obeyed without learning? Or did you mean only 9 of the commandments?

False by what standard? An apostle is someone who is sent with authority. Paul was such a person. Perhaps you should simply bully him too and refer to him as an "apostle.

Whose authority? Jesus's? How do we know? Because he said so? I bully Paul all the time by saying he's not an apostle and that his epistles are contradictions with the Gospels.

Ultimately, nothing you said was an actual counter-rebuttal but a big long complaint about people who dismiss other people's opinions.

 

[Nakosis]

Well, that is the OP -- Xtians following the Hebraic Law.

Ok, well I think I've made it obvious in a few post why I don't think they should and I think maybe as you pointed out most don't.

I don't know... Who's arguing that they should? I'm happy to disagree with them.

 

[Shermana]

I don't know... Who's arguing that they should? I'm happy to disagree with them.

Me. Feel free to disagree. But please take into account what I've said earlier so I need not repeat.

 

[Nakosis]

Me. Feel free to disagree. But please take into account what I've said earlier so I need not repeat.

Ok, if I see something, but I'm not about to argue the merits of Jewish law. I'm happy to leave that expertise in the hands of Jews.

 

[kjw47]

I think Jesus was saying many would still be alive 40 years later when the Temple and Hasmonean Kingdom was being destroyed. I think Jesus's warnings of the "end of the age" are oft confused with "End of the world", the "age" ended around 70-130.

I do believe Jesus words were--Some of you standing here will never die---They all died.It was the last days Jesus referred to.

 

[kjw47]

Yes, well so what does that mean?
The body dies. It is physical and impermanent.
The penalty of being in physical form?

All physical form is temporary. If you invest it it you will lose it. What do you think is being paid here?

God created man to live forever in perfection in the physical body. His plan has never stopped, it has just been interferred with temporarily.

 

[Nakosis]

God created man to live forever in perfection in the physical body. His plan has never stopped, it has just been interferred with temporarily.

Other groups see it differently. Not to say they are right, but where to you get this idea from?

 

[Nakosis]

I think Jesus was saying many would still be alive 40 years later when the Temple and Hasmonean Kingdom was being destroyed. I think Jesus's warnings of the "end of the age" are oft confused with "End of the world", the "age" ended around 70-130.

I think it means exactly what in says. Some will see for themselves the power of heaven.

Jesus was often saying the kingdom of God is near. Where does it say you have to die to see the power of heaven?

 

[Shermana]

I think it means exactly what in says. Some will see for themselves the power of heaven.

Jesus was often saying the kingdom of God is near. Where does it say you have to die to see the power of heaven?

Feel free to bring out the exact passage in question if you disagree what I said and we can go over it in detail. I don't think I said anything about having to die to see the power of heaven. The power of heaven can come in forms like a mighty Roman legion.

 

[sojourner]

Your entire post can be rebutted quite handily by pointing out this line:

I have a right to "bully" anyone...

Well, readers, you heard it from the horse's mouth. He's actually admitting to bullying and he's proud of it. You also have a right to run over puppies on the highway.

 

[Shermana]

Notice the quotation marks around bully.

You'd think you'd catch that after comparing using quotations around "Christian" to killing Jews and violently bashing homosexuals and segregating Blacks.

 

[Nakosis]

Feel free to bring out the exact passage in question if you disagree what I said and we can go over it in detail. I don't think I said anything about having to die to see the power of heaven. The power of heaven can come in forms like a mighty Roman legion.

Sorry that was more for kjw47. Actually something you were responding to. I should have probably multi-quoted if I figure out how I think it would have made more sense.

Still I don't understand why the destruction of the temple Hasmonean Kingdom equates to seeing the power of the power of the kingdom of God.

Mark 9:1 And he said to them, “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.”

 

[sojourner]

Notice the quotation marks around bully.

You'd think you'd catch that after comparing using quotations around "Christian" to killing Jews and violently bashing homosexuals and segregating Blacks.

You know I'm right. So does everyone else. "What can one little 'whites only' sign hurt?" "What can one little capital 'J' hurt?" "What can one little three letter word 'f-*-g' hurt?" "What can one little pair of quotation marks hurt?"

Bigotry always has an excuse that it's, somehow, justified, and that the target is, somehow, weak or flawed or "wrong."

But you're right. It's legal. And that must surely make it OK.

 

[Shermana]

You know I'm right. So does everyone else. "What can one little 'whites only' sign hurt?" "What can one little capital 'J' hurt?" "What can one little three letter word 'f-*-g' hurt?" "What can one little pair of quotation marks hurt?"

Bigotry always has an excuse that it's, somehow, justified, and that the target is, somehow, weak or flawed or "wrong."

But you're right. It's legal. And that must surely make it OK.

I don't "Know" that you are right just like I don't "know" that 2 + 2 = 3, I don't "think you are right", and I highly disagree with your comparison and think it's grossly offensive to Jews, Blacks, and homosexuals who have actually suffered brutal physical violence, is extreme, and a sign of desparate appeal to emotion due to lack of actual counter-argument combined..

As for claiming to be speaking for everyone else, quite bold I must say, but baseless bold assertions are a specialty of yours.

I will ask you once again, I would like to start a new thread with your quote here on this subject to see if "everyone else" truly agrees here as you claim, so I seek your permission as forum rules require, to use your quote to start a new thread to see if anyone else agrees with your comparing quotating "Christian" to killing Jews, violently harming homosexuals, and forcefully segregating Blacks.

 

[roberto]

Torah[law] was made flesh
Yeshuah is Torah[law].
If you follow Yeshua, you follow law.
If you follow "jesus" you follow anti-law/anti-messiah.

The use of quotation marks, when referring to a person or group of persons, implies fictitiousness -- that the person or group really doesn't exist. In the first place, this simply isn't true. Christians comprise, I believe, the largest concentration of those who identify as faithful to any religion. You can ask any number of people you meet in this country, and many of them will tell you both that they identify as Christian and that they are real people. Moreover, they will tell you that their faith and the practice of it is valid. Obviously, the government and other agencies (such as hospitals and banks) identify the faith, the people who practice it, and the various institutions by which it is known, as real. Otherwise, banks would not loan money to fictitious people and entities. The government would not grant 501c3 status to fictitious entities, and fictitious entities would not be allowed to own property. Therefore, we must conclude that Christians are real, the faith is valid, and the institutions that organize them are, likewise, real.

What you just do not get is that people take on the identity of other persons and then perpetrate crimes under/with that identity, which is what has been done with the tru messiah's identity by Emporer Constantine in the year 325AD with our messiah Yeshua.

For instance: If you were working at a Bank, and you knew someone with a fake/false identity would come in and draw a large amount of money.... would you hand him/her the money ?

If you would, then would you not be aiding a criminal ofence to take place ? Once you learn of jes_s and what he is asking his followers to do[break law], would you go along with it only because you have invested 80 years of your life to his/that religion ?

Shalom.
.