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Why do Gentiles assume they should follow the ten commandments?
- Thread starter Whoitbe
- Start date
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
The same as what was written on their front. The Tablts were sappire stone and carved straight through.
There is a Medrash that says that as an added miracle, they could be read in both directions as if they were both the front.
Made in China?
One needs a little joke like this sometimes to remember one is still in egypt.
But no, I found ten other instructions which is never mentioned by believers and I have wondered perhaps it is because these 10 instructions include the feasts of Yahweh.
By the way these ten were written on the new stone/s :
Exo 34:11[HNV] Observe that which I command you this day :
[1]Exo 34:14 for you shall worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
[2]Exo 34:15 “Don’t make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, lest they play the prostitute after their gods, and sacrifice to their gods, and one
call you and you eat of his sacrifice;
[3]Exo 34:17 “You shall make no cast idols for yourselves.
[4]Exo 34:18 “You shall keep the feast of unleavened bread. Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the time appointed in the month
Abib; for in the month Abib you came out from Egypt.
[5]Exo 34:19 “All that opens the womb is mine; and all your livestock that is male, the firstborn of cow and sheep.
[6]Exo 34:21 “Six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall rest: in plowing time and in harvest you shall rest.
[7]Exo 34:22 “You shall observe the feast of weeks with the first fruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of harvest at the year’s end.
[8]Exo 34:23 Three times in the year all your males shall appear before the Lord GOD, the God of Israel.
[9]Exo 34:25 “You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the Passover be left to the
morning.
[10]Exo 34:26 “You shall bring the first of the first fruits of your ground to the house of the LORD your God.
“You shall not boil a young goat in its mother’s milk.”
Exo 34:27 The LORD said to Moses, “Write you these words: for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”
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One needs a little joke like this sometimes to remember one is still in egypt.
But no, I found ten other instructions which is never mentioned by believers and I have wondered perhaps it is because these 10 instructions include the feasts of Yahweh.
By the way these ten were written on the new stone/s :
Exo 34:11[HNV] Observe that which I command you this day :
[1]Exo 34:14 for you shall worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
[2]Exo 34:15 Dont make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, lest they play the prostitute after their gods, and sacrifice to their gods, and one
call you and you eat of his sacrifice;
[3]Exo 34:17 You shall make no cast idols for yourselves.
[4]Exo 34:18 You shall keep the feast of unleavened bread. Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the time appointed in the month
Abib; for in the month Abib you came out from Egypt.
[5]Exo 34:19 All that opens the womb is mine; and all your livestock that is male, the firstborn of cow and sheep.
[6]Exo 34:21 Six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall rest: in plowing time and in harvest you shall rest.
[7]Exo 34:22 You shall observe the feast of weeks with the first fruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of harvest at the years end.
[8]Exo 34:23 Three times in the year all your males shall appear before the Lord GOD, the God of Israel.
[9]Exo 34:25 You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the Passover be left to the
morning.
[10]Exo 34:26 You shall bring the first of the first fruits of your ground to the house of the LORD your God.
You shall not boil a young goat in its mothers milk.
Exo 34:27 The LORD said to Moses, Write you these words: for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.
What do you think about the necessity of these laws?
Being a deceit human being is not enough? It's not a person's fault they happen to believe in the "wrong" God or no God at all. People make the best determination they can based on what information they have.
There are good people and bad people in the world. One's religion is not necessarily and indicator of who is good and who is bad.
A bad person who follows all the laws doesn't necessarily make them a good person.
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
First of all, the writing on the second set of Tablets was the same as what was on the first set of Tablets.
Second... The laws that roberto referred to were only given to the Jews. It isn't a condemnation against people who are not of the specific covenant who don't believe.
By taking on the mantle of being Jewish, one takes on the responsibilities involved in the full complement of the commandments - or our share of the 613 of them. (It's also true that individual Jews have varying degrees of success adhering to them or even believing in how committed one should be in believing or doing.)
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
It's not a matter of good vs. bad. The point of these commandments is to have that which Jews do because God told us to.
You follow laws given by Moses who may or may not have had divine authority to gives those laws. Being a raised Egyptian prince he was likely aware of the role of religion in providing structure for a large group of people.
Moses provide a tribal identity and civil structure for a group of escaped slaves. Claimed God's authority to help enforce it.
A person is of course free to believe Moses held that authority. However there is no good justifiable reason to accept Moses had this authority. Other then traditional cultural belief one could pick any random religion and with equal reason invest belief in it.
To see oneself as a Jew, to follow these laws, there is no necessary benefit to be acknowledged in this. Any more any less then any other belief or being an atheist for that matter.
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
And that is why Jews don't proselytize.
Heathen Hammer
Nope, you're still wrong
And bless you for it <3
Because there is no necessary benefit to being a Jew?
Then why be a Jew? Why differentiate yourself from the rest of your fellow human beings.
I don't mind proselytizing myself. I understand it annoys many. Not that I agree with them but Christian think they have the key to truth. They want to share it with as many people as possible. They want as many people saved as possible. I don't know that is a bad thing.
So not proselytizing doesn't really justify anything, just makes you less annoying to some.
Shermana
Heretic
If anything, a lack of Prosletyzing can be interpreted as caring too much about what people think and not truly caring about their souls. I believe in the old days, Judaism did in fact prosletyize, The post-2nd temple opposition to it can be seen as fear from the reaction of those who disagree. It's one thing to not want to be annoying, but the reasons for doing so are another. I think lack of Prosletyzing can be seen as a sign of weakness and cowardice rather than just "not wanting to annoy" because its based on the foundation of it originally being illegal and dangerous to do so due to Orthodox Christian pressure. Now that this pressure is gone and there is no active social or legal prohibitions, why continue to abide by the historical taboo? I think religions should be prosletyzing and putting their words in the marketplace of ideas, whether it annoys people or not, where it's legal. Not that I want 20 missionaries coming to my door every day, but with the right method I think Judaism could return to its place as the dominant Intellectual religious philosophy like during its Roman heyday in the 2nd Temple era. Perhaps why Evangelicism is so successful is because the Rabbinicists don't try to bother competing.
The More Jews the Better? - Beliefnet.com
So no matter how you slice it, Jewish lack of prosletyzing has more to do with outdated compliance with ancient social memes than with an actual desire to not "be annoying". Jews did in fact spread their beliefs all over the ancient world and converted many souls actively, they have no legal reasons prohibiting them from doing so now, and I agree and support Jewish leaders seeking to return to this "Proactive conversion" policy, especially as Orthodox Judaism shrinks in America and the West to less than 10% of the Jews.
The More Jews the Better? - Beliefnet.com
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Harmonious
Well-Known Member
There are many reasons that Jews don't proselytize.
One reason is that that God already has a relationship with humanity that started with Noah. It was that relationship with God that Abraham and Sarah taught their guests about.
The fact that God and Abraham forged a special relationship doesn't invalidate God's relationship with people who aren't Abraham's descendants.
As such, there is no need for non-Jews to become Jews. If they want to, they have to want the whole package, including commandments that don't make logical sense, other than "because God said so".
I don't fight hard to "prove" what I believe because you can't prove faith. I could rhapsodize about the joys of keeping Kosher, sexual modesty, Sabbath observance, or any number of other things people who don't believe as I do consider outdated, outmoded, or unnecessarily strict.
The thing is, they don't believe as I do. No matter what I say, it isn't likely to change their minds.
The good news is that non-Jews were never obligated to do those commandments beyond the Seven Laws of Noah, and their many facets.
It makes me sad when Jews aren't interested in being observant as I try to be, but everything good they do counts to the good.
I might try to explain myself better later.
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
:foryou:
You've no obligation to explain, so I appreciate you making the attempt.
What you seem to be saying however is there is no reason for anyone to be a Jew but you choose to be one because you feel you get something out of it.
I'm not sure what and maybe that's none of my business. Curiosity I suppose asks that I try to understand the rationale behind why people behave the way they do.
Maybe in some cases there is none but cause and effect/determinism seems to provide an underlying rational structure for human behavior. So I keep thinking if I kick over enough cans I'll reveal the missing piece to where it all makes sense and I'll be able to understand my fellow human beings a little better.
Kind of begs the question if Judaism is right, why isn't right for everyone?
I suppose though the reality is pushing religious beliefs has a history of starting wars.
Harmonious
Well-Known Member
Exactly. It is meant to be a choice (or born tradition) of love and commitment.
And there is no penalty for not making the choice. (Born Jews are another story, altogether.)
Look - I can tell you that I love God, and I honor the covenant He made with my ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and believe that my soul stood with the multitudes and Mount Sinai as God gave Israel the Torah.
I've seen things to further advance my belief, and just learning and growing is meaningful to me beyond description.
And I remember spending a lot of time when I was in grad school explaining why Jews do what we do. (There is a particularly large Orthodox Jewish community near Queens College, CUNY.) And the non-Jewish security guards, tutors, students, and anyone else who asked me were told that Jews didn't expect non-Jews to become Jewish.
I also spent a lot of time explaining the Seven Noachide Laws to anyone who asked me.
They were often amazed that Jews who obviously were serious about our beliefs had no interest in proselytizing. (And we were in distinct difference with the Campus Crusaders who DID try to proselytize to some form of Christianity, though I don't remember which group they were.)
I beg to differ, and would like to make a few statements :
1. Goy, who become jewish [convert] , study Talmud and "become part" of Judaism.
2. Abraham is the forefather of all Nations[Goy]
3. Studying Talmud and studying writen Torah is not the same.
Here is my analysis for item 3. above :
Gen 17:5 Neither will your name any more be called Abram, but your name will be Abraham; for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.
Gen 26:5 because Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my requirements, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.”
People who study Talmud think Abraham is not the father of all Nations/Goy and thus think people of the Nations are not to study the requirements, commandments, statutes, and laws that was given to Moses.
The conclusion I come to is that Judaism received different requirements, commandments, statutes, and laws than that which was given to Abraham.
Otherwise why would they insist that Goy study something else than that which was given to Abraham[the father of all Nations]?
Huh?
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Harmonious
Well-Known Member
Studying Talmud is not usually a requirement for conversion, although acknowledging it and its importance is.
Also... The plural of Goy is Goyim. You seem to be stuck on the word and use it as a catch-all phrase.
Abraham is so called because when people bless his descendants, those who bless us will be blessed.
It does not mean that all people are, by default, part of his covenant with God. It also is worth remembering that Abraham served any guest, be they kings or itinerant wanderers. He taught all who entered his tents about God.
That did not immediately make them part of Abraham and God's special relationship.
This is true.
However, to learn Talmud properly is a great skill that requires time, effort, a learning partner, and a teacher who knows better to tell you if you came to the right conclusions.
I am not a Talmud scholar, although I did study it regularly when I was in Israel.
Yes. Abraham followed the Seven Noachide Laws and circumcision.
The different statutes and commandments you referenced were given to the descendants of his grandson Jacob in the Sinai desert.
Actually, we "insist" that non-Jews study that which Abraham himself taught, which was all that Abraham was taught by the sons of Noah (particularly Shem) with the exception of circumcision, which was a commandment given specifically to Abraham and the males of his household.
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Harmonious
Well-Known Member
Studying Talmud is not usually a requirement for conversion, although acknowledging it and its importance is.
Also... The plural of Goy is Goyim. You seem to be stuck on the word and use it as a catch-all phrase.
Abraham is so called because when people bless his descendants, those who bless us will be blessed.
It does not mean that all people are, by default, part of his covenant with God. It also is worth remembering that Abraham served any guest, be they kings or itinerant wanderers. He taught all who entered his tents about God.
That did not immediately make them part of Abraham and God's special relationship.
This is true.
However, to learn Talmud properly is a great skill that requires time, effort, a learning partner, and a teacher who knows better to tell you if you came to the right conclusions.
I am not a Talmud scholar, although I did study it regularly when I was in Israel.
Yes. These statutes and commandments were given to the descendants of his grandson Jacob in the Sinai desert.
Actually, we "insist" that non-Jews study that which Abraham himself taught, which was all that Abraham was taught by the sons of Noah (particularly Shem) with the exception of circumcision, which was a commandment given specifically to Abraham and the males of his household.