Why do Gentiles assume they should follow the ten commandments?

[sojourner]

No, I was speaking to Roberto specifically using subjective terminology. By "Western", that could include his "Western" Egyptian Coptic origins that maybe were part of the Syncrenized "Whole" the "Eastern" Orthodox church also adopted. Byzantium is West to Anatolia. The point was, the language I was using to communicate specifically to Roberto was more about the historical orthodox Roman version than the actual historical specifics. "Western Jesus" can mean what you call "Eastern Jesus" in this case, but the idea is about any non-Nazarene/Ebionite/"Messianic Jewish" interpretation.

Constantine converted shortly before he died and was an Arian. By pretenders I mean all non-Torah obedient sects. I.e. all non-Nazarenes/Ebionites.

Do you read the same canonized texts as non-Nazarenes?

 

[Shermana]

Do you read the same canonized texts as non-Nazarenes?

I can only take my best estimate as to which ones they used, sometimes it involves a fringe belief that defies scholarly consensus, because the scholarly consensus is based on an anti-prophecy basis alone for a later dating, or based on traditional Christian interpretations that basically discount the canonical selections of even the proto-orthodox.

 

[kjw47]

This puzzeled me for a long time studying at home with no assembly meeting etc.
Then I realized that if one has to determine what truth is there has to be a way of getting to it alone :

The answer I got was that just as you determine the exact center of a circle [with only a ruler and a pencill at your disposal] , you can also determine the truth with only the ruach ha codesh

I do believe Gods word teaches this--Jesus appointed the faithful and discreet slave ( lead teachers) over all of his belongings to give spiritual food at the proper time. So then its obvious Jesus only reveals the deep truths through this FDS. one must learn from them to find truth.

 

[sojourner]

I can only take my best estimate as to which ones they used, sometimes it involves a fringe belief that defies scholarly consensus, because the scholarly consensus is based on an anti-prophecy basis alone for a later dating, or based on traditional Christian interpretations that basically discount the canonical selections of even the proto-orthodox.

You didn't answer my question. What texts do you read as sacred? I don't care which ones "they" used.

 

[roberto]

Is it so easy for you to separate the Ruach Ha-Kodesh from your own reasoning?

Nope I stated quite the oposite.

 

[roberto]

....3-2, 7-1, I have no idea what you're talking about.

You will never.

The difference between Talmud and Torah, as I understand it, is that Talmud is commentary on Torah.

Yes thats the difference but what do they refer to as Torah ? Do some studying.

 

[roberto]

But the word "fulfilled" and even "Law" may be different than what you think they say. Paul uses the term to say "Fulfill the Law of Christ". Does this mean Paul was saying to no longer abide by the Law of Christ if one was to fulfill it? Obviously the term means something other than to put an end to, it means to put into practice and execution, especially when Jesus clarified it with "I did not come to abolish the Law" almost reads as if he knew what people later would try to twist what he said into. If a prophecy is "fulfilled" that means that its effect is in place even if its an event of the past.

The method I use to try and "get through" to these fulfilled guys is to ask:
Once you passed your road learners-licence , do you now ignore all the road-rules simply because you passed[fulfilled] the learners-licence ?
.

 

[sojourner]

The method I use to try and "get through" to these fulfilled guys is to ask:
Once you passed your road learners-licence , do you now ignore all the road-rules simply because you passed[fulfilled] the learners-licence ?
.

Of course not. But one also doesn't need an instructor sitting next to one, spouting reminders of what the rules are. the rules are now followed, not because of threat of wrongdoing, but because it's just the right way to drive a car.

Christians don't murder, covet, treat workers badly, take advantage of the disadvantaged, make strangers feel unwelcome, not because "the Bible says so," or because we'll be "bad people" if we do. We refrain from those things because that's just the right way to live life in God's kingdom.

 

[Shermana]

On the contrary, many of my friends do in fact need to be reminded about the rules of the road quite often. Police officers make quite a killing on scolding people who think they don't have to obey these rules when they have no overseer watching them;. If there was no threat for wrongdoing, apparently it wasn't the case for Ananias and Saphira. All they did was lie about the value of their house and they were struck dead.

Regardless for what reason Christians do or don't do good or bad things, the text is quite clear that you must do good things regardless and avoid bad things to enter the Kingdom. Even Paul says this, he just has a different opinion about the Law of Moses itself but still has his own idea of the "Law of Christ" which he exorts believers "to fulfill".

"And the dead were judged according to their works".

You can try to dodge it all you want, but the text itself does in fact put "good behavior" and lack of bad behavior as a total prerequisite for the Kingdom. Many anti-works theology types may try to deny this by ignoring or reinterpreting (twisting) the verses that most clearly say this, but it's true regardless: Half of the things Jesus says are about how your actions all play a role in your judgment, whether you do the good deeds because you "love god" or not, and I've made a great deal of "Christians" who are otherwise not-nice people, especially those who put the most emphasis on their anti-works positions.

 

[sojourner]

On the contrary, many of my friends do in fact need to be reminded about the rules of the road quite often. Police officers make quite a killing on scolding people who think they don't have to obey these rules when they have no overseer watching them;. If there was no threat for wrongdoing, apparently it wasn't the case for Ananias and Saphira. All they did was lie about the value of their house and they were struck dead.

Regardless for what reason Christians do or don't do good or bad things, the text is quite clear that you must do good things regardless and avoid bad things to enter the Kingdom. Even Paul says this, he just has a different opinion about the Law of Moses itself but still has his own idea of the "Law of Christ" which he exorts believers "to fulfill".

"And the dead were judged according to their works".

You can try to dodge it all you want, but the text itself does in fact put "good behavior" and lack of bad behavior as a total prerequisite for the Kingdom. Many anti-works theology types may try to deny this by ignoring or reinterpreting (twisting) the verses that most clearly say this, but it's true regardless: Half of the things Jesus says are about how your actions all play a role in your judgment, whether you do the good deeds because you "love god" or not, and I've made a great deal of "Christians" who are otherwise not-nice people, especially those who put the most emphasis on their anti-works positions.

So...
What texts do you read as sacred, again?

 

[Shermana]

So...
What texts do you read as sacred, again?

Not the Pauline epistles at least. Or the "Petrine" epistles. I consider the 4 current gospels to be mostly correct to the originals but heavily interpolated and edited. Most of the OT (minus Ruth and Esther), with room for edits and interpolations, I look at Pseudo-Philo and Book of Jasher as possibilities for copies of ancient traditions, I go by 1 and 2 Enoch, and much of the NT "apocrypha" like Shepherd of Hermas (that was once considered canonical by many non-nazarenes as well), Acts of Peter, and Gospel of Philip (which is called "Gnostic" yet really isn't, like several other "Gnostic" works), of what is the relevance?

 

[sojourner]

Not the Pauline epistles at least. Or the "Petrine" epistles. I consider the 4 current gospels to be mostly correct to the originals but heavily interpolated and edited. Most of the OT (minus Ruth and Esther), with room for edits and interpolations, I look at Pseudo-Philo and Book of Jasher as possibilities for copies of ancient traditions, I go by 1 and 2 Enoch, and much of the NT "apocrypha" like Shepherd of Hermas (that was once considered canonical by many non-nazarenes as well), Acts of Peter, and Gospel of Philip (which is called "Gnostic" yet really isn't, like several other "Gnostic" works), of what is the relevance?

Because the information you seem to hold so "absolute" about what Jesus taught all comes from texts that were already heavily influenced by non-Jewish culture.

 

[Nakosis]

Nope I stated quite the oposite.

Sorry I must have missed that post.
Could you direct me to it, just so I can understand better your position?

 

[roberto]

sorry i must have missed that post.
Could you direct me to it, just so i can understand better your position?

07-13-2012, 12:55 pm

 

[Nakosis]

07-13-2012, 12:55 pm

Ok, kind of thought so but wasn't sure.

So you're saying that you use the ruach ha-kodesh
as a measure/standard, but find it difficult to separate that measure from your own thinking?

The concern is this what many Christians claim as well yet it seems difficult from them to reach any consensus as to the will of God.

I don't really know you, so maybe this all works for you maybe not. Since I don't know you I got to take your claims with a grain of salt, no offense.

 

[Tonix]

Christian Gentiles follow the ten commandments because they believe they should, even though they do not.

 

[roberto]

Ok, kind of thought so but wasn't sure.

So you're saying that you use the ruach ha-kodesh
as a measure/standard, but find it difficult to separate that measure from your own thinking?

The concern is this what many Christians claim as well yet it seems difficult from them to reach any consensus as to the will of God.

I don't really know you, so maybe this all works for you maybe not. Since I don't know you I got to take your claims with a grain of salt, no offense.

This is what I tried to explain :

1. One leaves the church and all its lies behind.
2. Now u sit with only yourself and the ruach ha Codesh, to determine what truth is.
3. How do you go about determining the truth with everything that is being placed on the internet ?
3. You use the xample I gave of "the circle/pencil/ruler" method
4. Once you have determind the centre of the circle[internet stuf] with only the help of the Ruach ha Codesh, you compare the centre of the circle[internet stuf] to that which is written in the Bible.

A to H are all the sources about a topic you are researching on the internet and where all the lines cross , one usually find the truth , if compared with the Bible.
I think they call it the common denominator or something to that efect. ?

 

[Shermana]

Because the information you seem to hold so "absolute" about what Jesus taught all comes from texts that were already heavily influenced by non-Jewish culture.

That's why I emphasize that they are heavily interpolated and edited and redacted. Many of the books like Revelation are said by many to be totally Jewish. Matthew was originally likely from the "Gospel to the Hebrews". What I believe is that the current versions are fairly close to what may have existed earlier but are missing much and have much added. The Acts of Peter are very Jewish. The "Pseudo" Clementine Literature are another, they were definitely written by a more Nazarene-ish group.

So you are right ,they are in fact heavily influenced by non-Jewish culture in that they were originally totally Jewish and were later interpolated, including cases like Shepherd of Hermas possibly. Enoch I believe would be non-Jewish because there were no Jews back when it was first transmitted.

 

[Nakosis]

This is what I tried to explain :

1. One leaves the church and all its lies behind.
2. Now u sit with only yourself and the ruach ha Codesh, to determine what truth is.
3. How do you go about determining the truth with everything that is being placed on the internet ?
3. You use the xample I gave of "the circle/pencil/ruler" method
4. Once you have determind the centre of the circle[internet stuf] with only the help of the Ruach ha Codesh, you compare the centre of the circle[internet stuf] to that which is written in the Bible.

Thank you for clarifying.
If I can ask you one more thing...

What type/form of input does the Ruach ha Codesh provide?

 

[roberto]

Thank you for clarifying.
If I can ask you one more thing...

What type/form of input does the Ruach ha Codesh provide?

When you go to town, and someone greets you from a distance and walks up to you, [but you've left your glases at home], you sort-of recognise but not really recognise untill you get close to that person, you get the same input/output...:

The Aaaah! moment.... Hi !..... I did not realize it was you...kinda moment.

I like the way you ask the question; Did you know that the Helinist/Greek mind enquires after form and the Jewish mind enquires after function ?
.