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Why do Gentiles assume they should follow the ten commandments?

Shermana

Heretic
Do you often argue with sign posts just to take the wrong way home? No, I don't follow the 10 commandments. I follow Love. If you follow Love, you don't need no steenkeeng commandments. :D If you don't follow love, then you'll never be able to understand the difference. My guess is that you really don't understand the difference. The Law of Love must be written on your heart or you are destined to follow all the rules like a slave. It's your choice.

If you don't follow the 10 commandments, that means that you DO commit murder, theft, false witness against neighbors, dishonor to parents, adultery and all that, and your whole thing about "That's not love" is just a thinly concealed cover.

Have you read 1 John? What does 1 John 5:3 say?

If you think I don't understand the difference, kindly tell everyone, with scriptural backing, why my interpretation of "love" is wrong.

What do you think "love" actually means? In detail.

I'll happily follow the rules "like a slave". It sounds like you don't want to follow the rules, and your excuse that such things are "not love" would mean that you ultimately DO believe in following the rules if you felt that "love" involved the same things that the commandments upholds. Otherwise, it seems like you're arguing for disobedience to the rules.
 
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roberto

Active Member
....The New Testament Scriptures teach something a bit differently... .

Huh ? How so ? I thought Love and the Instructions/law go together ?

Mat 22:37 (HNV) Yeshua said to him, "‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[2]
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 A second likewise is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Mat 22:40 The whole Torah and the Prophets depend on these two commandments."

(KJV-1611) On these two Commandements hang all the Law and the Prophets.

Numbers 15: 13 "'Everyone who is native-born must do these things in this way when he brings an offering made by fire as an aroma pleasing to the LORD. 14 For the generations to come, whenever an alien or anyone else living among you presents an offering made by fire as an aroma pleasing to the LORD, he must do exactly as you do. 15 The community is to have the same rules for you and for the alien living among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the alien shall be the same before the LORD: 16 The same laws and regulations will apply both to you and to the alien living among you.'"

Zec 14:16 It will happen that everyone who is left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to keep the feast of booths.
Zec 14:17 It will be, that whoever of all the families of the earth doesn’t go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, on them there will be no rain.

So I guess you are opting for no rain as you do not believe that the Feasts of Yahweh partain to you/gentiles ?

Lev 23:2 "Speak to the children of Israel, and tell them, ‘The set feasts of the LORD, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my set feasts.

Tell me why Paul took a sin-offering to the Temple if "jesus" died for his sins ? I thought all those "steenkeeng laws" were done away with the xfiction

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Shermana

Heretic
I don't think they understand (or want to understand) what "hangs" means. It's like If I said "All the rules of traffic hang on the principle of not hitting anyone", does that mean as long as you try not to hit anyone that you can drive on the left side? (Right side in England). Does that mean you can go 120 mph as long as you're looking out to not hit anyone? Of course not. Therefore, you can't defraud and bear false witness or avoid Sabbath while claiming to love God and neighbor.

1 John 5:3 The love of God is obedience to the commandmnets.

John 14:15 If you love me then you'll keep my commandments.

Oh my, RULES!!!
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
If you don't follow the 10 commandments, that means that you DO commit murder, theft, false witness against neighbors, dishonor to parents, adultery and all that, and your whole thing about "That's not love" is just a thinly concealed cover.
Do you have evidence of me doing any of these? Nope. Again, your assumption (that word again) is waaaaaaaaaay off base.

Have you read 1 John? What does 1 John 5:3 say?
It says that those who love God have obeyed his commands. Wow. What a concept! What commands are those? Jump back half a chapter and read

I John 4:7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

13 This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God. 16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

19 We love because he first loved us. 20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.
NIV

Just in case you missed it, like you've done in the past, I have emboldened all the words that contain love in them. I'm not sure why you hate love so much, but John seemed to have it in his vocabulary.

If you think I don't understand the difference, kindly tell everyone, with scriptural backing, why my interpretation of "love" is wrong.
I just did. Well, I John 4 just did.

What do you think "love" actually means? In detail.
Again, just read I John 4

I'll happily follow the rules "like a slave".

That's your choice. Me? I would rather be a Son than a slave:

Galatians 4:6 Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.” 7 So you are no longer a slave, but God’s child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir. NIV

I get the idea that you're not only a legalist, but an extreme legalist. In that respect I should warn you that you'll put your legalism at risk if you read all of Galatians 4. Don't even think about Galatians 5 with all that talk of FREEDOM and having the fruits of the Spirit. Against such there is no law, and that's just CRAZY TALK for the legalist.

OK, quick Bible quiz: How did Jesus say others would identify his disciples? We'll make it multiple guess to help you out:

a) Saying grace at all their meals
b) Preaching against homosexuals and evolution
c) Following laws made by men
d) Love

Oh yeah, support your answer with scripture. BTW, I fully expect you to not answer this question. Let the reader take note of the results or lack thereof. :D
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Huh ? How so ? I thought Love and the Instructions/law go together ?
No... it's a tale of two covenants for Christians. Here's a passage that's right after the one I quoted earlier that explains it rather well:

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.

24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:

“Be glad, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
shout for joy and cry aloud,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.”
28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.” 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.
NIV

Christians who want to hold on to the law perplex those of us who feel, like Paul, that we need to get rid of the slave woman and her son. I hope that helps.
 

Shermana

Heretic
Okay, so 1 John 4, but not 1 John 5:3. Interesting.

As for Galatians, I could not care less what Paul says, the only thing I care about is using it in discussions about how much Paul deviated from what Jesus actually taught.

As for accusing me for "hating love", what I hate is your interpretation of love. You accuse me of missing things, but then you go ahead and completely ignore the thing on 1 John 5:3.

Oh well. Good luck with your cherry picked interpretation of 'love". And yes I am a legalist. Even Paul was a "legalist". You keep ignoring what I said about how Paul said unrepentant sinners don't enter the Kingdom. I find it interesting when those who use Paul dismiss his words more than I do by trying to use something else he said to trump what he said elsewhere rather than reconciling it.

And yes Jesus said that "love" would be the way of determining disciples.

So an Atheist and Buddhist who "love" as you interpret it to mean would be Jesus's disciples then.

Personally I don't think an Atheist or Buddhist would be considered such so you may want to reconsider your definition.

We "legalists" may perplex those of your ilk, but your ilk perplex those of us who believe that Jesus actually spoke of having to "Strive" to enter the narrow gate and to avoid sin like he commanded as a requisite to enter the Kingdom. I notice you totally refused to address my thing on Matthew 7:22-23, that's okay. If you're not interested in actually looking at the other side of the argument, your loss. But anyways, I may be getting too close to "debate" for a discussion, so let's drop it and pick it up on an actual debate thread.
 
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roberto

Active Member
No... it's a tale of two covenants for Christians. Here's a passage that's right after the one I quoted earlier that explains it rather well:

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.

24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:

“Be glad, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
shout for joy and cry aloud,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.”
28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.” 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman. NIV

Christians who want to hold on to the law perplex those of us who feel, like Paul, that we need to get rid of the slave woman and her son. I hope that helps.


The Book of Galatians:
Conflict of the 2 Torahs
Sha'ul's Defense of Faith in Messiah(the Living Torah)
and His Attack on Man-Made Law(the Oral Torah)

"...The Book of Galatians has scandalously been used by Christian ministers to teach their congregations that the Law of the Old Testament has been done away with. Paul the apostle, whose given Hebrew name is Sha'ul, is the author of the letter to the Galatians. Many of Sha'ul's statements in this book, as they are translated (interpreted) by English scholars, give the impression that anyone who endeavors to obey the Law as given by Moses (Hebrew "Mosheh") has "fallen from grace," and has rejected Messiah. Moreover, they say, whoever pursues the Law to live by its instructions is suggesting that Messiah died for nothing!
This is due to the unfortunate misunderstanding of Sha'ul's life and upbringing, his times and his ongoing battle against the Pharisees and their human traditions. When we read the letter to the Galatians through Sha'ul's eyes, that is, from the perspective of this 1st century scholar who was trained in the traditions, customs and instructions of the Pharisees, what will emerge from Sha'ul's letter is quite the opposite of the traditional interpretation. Paul is actually teaching that faith in Messiah means fidelity to the written Torah (Law) of Mosheh, but that man-made (oral) law made up of customs and traditions, such as the Pharisees taught, are of no value at all..."
Read more here > Galatians - Paul's Defense of the Law of Moses

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Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Okay, so 1 John 4, but not 1 John 5:3. Interesting.
But I said BOTH. I John 5:3 refers to I John 4.

As for Galatians, I could not care less what Paul says,
That is evident by your legalism.

As for accusing me for "hating love", what I hate is your interpretation of love.
You hate the scriptural interpretation of Love? How quaint!

Oh well. Good luck with your cherry picked interpretation of 'love".

I Corinthians 13:If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
NIV

And yes I am a legalist.
You've confessed your sin, now it's up to you to repent! :D :D :D
Even Paul was a "legalist".

Not after Damascus.

You keep ignoring what I said about how Paul said unrepentant sinners don't enter the Kingdom.

What is sin, but a lack of love?

So an Atheist and Buddhist who "love" as you interpret it to mean would be Jesus's disciples then.
Legalists, like the Pharisees and Saducees before them, have a real problem with this concept. Jesus didn't:

Matthew 7:15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
NIV

God is love! Those who love are of God. Does it really matter what we call them?

We "legalists" may perplex those of your ilk, but your ilk perplex those of us who believe that Jesus actually spoke of having to "Strive" to enter the narrow gate and to avoid sin like he commanded as a requisite to enter the Kingdom.

I wonder if being referred as an ilk would qualify for this? :D :D :D

Matthew 5:11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. NIV

I notice you totally refused to address my thing on Matthew 7:22-23, that's okay.
I just quoted it! If you look at this and Matthew 25, you'll see that actions speak louder than words.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
" If you Christians " ..........> Quite insulting and you succeeded, thank you.
Should I now start calling you insulting names as well ? No I will not do that.

If the "insulting name" that you call me is "Jew," then I guess that would be well deserved. It seems fairly peculiar to me that a Christian finds it insulting to be called a Christian.

Tracing the Lost 10 Tribes and preparing for their Return
by Rabbi Avraham Feld

This is nonsense. It's some kind of claptrap pseudo-cultural website run by Jews for Jesus or their ilk-- some group trying to cloak their Christianity in borrowed Jewish imagery and terminology.

Come now, we all know what Jews think of Christians, and is it so strange that I feel the same way about xtians ? I mean I was one myself.

I have no problem with Christians being Christians. My problem begins when Christians start claiming that they are Jews, and start dressing up Christianity in pseudo-Jewish drag, as if that gave Christianity some kind of Jewish authenticity. And even more so when, in doing this, they use it deceitfully to missionize amongst Jews too young or uneducated to realize that what they are being talked into is unacceptable for Jews to practice or believe.

Christianity is not Judaism. It has not been anything like Judaism for over 1800 years. Christians are not Jews. The two faiths are not theologically compatible.

If non-Jews want to be Christians, great. Good for them. But it is impermissible to Jews, and it is nothing short of cultural theft and religious imperialism to try and pass Christianity off as any kind of Judaism, much less and authentic form of it.

Just take the word "Yeshu" for instance, why is it ok for "Jews" to use the word "Jesus" if Tradition tells them not to ?
Yimakh shemo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is a custom amongst the Haredim (ultra-Orthodox) to append the phrase yimach shemo ("may his name be erased," a common epithet given to the names of the supremely wicked) to Jesus' name, and for that name itself not to be spoken, lest others believe that speaking it is a sign of support for the beliefs that have grown up around him.

But most non-Orthodox, and many modern Orthodox Jews, do not follow this custom. We understand that there is no confusion in this matter, and that none will mistake us for Christians, because we are Jews. And many of us understand that Jesus himself was not a wicked man, only a misguided man, and perhaps one too willing to claim a mantle of power to which he had no right. But it is unlikely that he himself ever set out to break away from Judaism altogether and create his own religion. That was the work of later "followers" of his, especially the apostate Paul-- to whose name, if I were a Haredi, I would quite likely add yimach shemo, since he is the source of considerable suffering for the Jewish People. But even in his case we non-Orthodox Jews do not do so, because we choose to offer some minimal level of respect to non-Jewish religions and their sacred figures.

We prefer to leave non-Jews and their religions alone, hoping always that the non-Jews and their religions will have the same courtesy to us.
 

roberto

Active Member
If the "insulting name" that you call me is "Jew," then I guess that would be well deserved. It seems fairly peculiar to me that a Christian finds it insulting to be called a Christian.

This is nonsense. It's some kind of claptrap pseudo-cultural website run by Jews for Jesus or their ilk-- some group trying to cloak their Christianity in borrowed Jewish imagery and terminology.

I have no problem with Christians being Christians. My problem begins when Christians start claiming that they are Jews, and start dressing up Christianity in pseudo-Jewish drag, as if that gave Christianity some kind of Jewish authenticity. And even more so when, in doing this, they use it deceitfully to missionize amongst Jews too young or uneducated to realize that what they are being talked into is unacceptable for Jews to practice or believe.

Christianity is not Judaism. It has not been anything like Judaism for over 1800 years. Christians are not Jews. The two faiths are not theologically compatible.

If non-Jews want to be Christians, great. Good for them. But it is impermissible to Jews, and it is nothing short of cultural theft and religious imperialism to try and pass Christianity off as any kind of Judaism, much less and authentic form of it.


It is a custom amongst the Haredim (ultra-Orthodox) to append the phrase yimach shemo ("may his name be erased," a common epithet given to the names of the supremely wicked) to Jesus' name, and for that name itself not to be spoken, lest others believe that speaking it is a sign of support for the beliefs that have grown up around him.

But most non-Orthodox, and many modern Orthodox Jews, do not follow this custom. We understand that there is no confusion in this matter, and that none will mistake us for Christians, because we are Jews. And many of us understand that Jesus himself was not a wicked man, only a misguided man, and perhaps one too willing to claim a mantle of power to which he had no right. But it is unlikely that he himself ever set out to break away from Judaism altogether and create his own religion. That was the work of later "followers" of his, especially the apostate Paul-- to whose name, if I were a Haredi, I would quite likely add yimach shemo, since he is the source of considerable suffering for the Jewish People. But even in his case we non-Orthodox Jews do not do so, because we choose to offer some minimal level of respect to non-Jewish religions and their sacred figures.

We prefer to leave non-Jews and their religions alone, hoping always that the non-Jews and their religions will have the same courtesy to us.

Rabbi Avraham Feld - Founder of the Kol haTor Project
Avraham Feld was born on February 14, 1954 in Manhattan, USA. He graduated at the Yeshiva College with studies in Jewish philosophy and psychology, earning his Rabbinic degree in 1983.

Rabbi Avraham Feld is currently based in Jerusalem. His activities include extensive research projects for politicians and commentators on several topics. He maintains serious projects of rescue, in which field he holds world wide reputation. He is author and co-author of several religious research publications on Biblical topics.

Rabbi Avraham Feld and the Kol HaTor Vision
His association with the Kol HaTor Vision and Project draws from his passion for the Biblical Prophetical Promise of the Restoration of the House of Israel. It may also be linked to a special Blessing which, as a young man, he received from the illustrious Lubavitch Rebbe Schneerson, the prominent Chassidic Rabbi of the Chabad Lubavitch movement.
http://www.kolhator.org.il/rabbi_avraham_feld.php


"...It seems fairly peculiar to me that a Christian finds it insulting to be called a Christian..."
Why ? are only "Jews" allowed to feel that way about xtians ?

By the way , I am German. So this gives you all the more reason to hate me.

And no, I am not like some of your fellow Jews waiting for Lubavitch Rebbe Schneerson to "rise".
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Levite

Higher and Higher
Avraham Feld was born on February 14, 1954 in Manhattan, USA. He graduated at the Yeshiva College ...

So he's an apostate. Or at best, some sort of radical heretic. Doesn't really make any difference. His website is nonsense.

Why ? are only "Jews" allowed to feel that way about xtians ?

I already noted that my problem is not with Christians as a whole. My problem is specific to those Christians who attempt to steal Jewish religion and Jewish authenticity to use as a cloak for Christianity.

By the way, I am German. So this gives you all the more reason to hate me.

Um.... Half my family came from Munich and Vienna. Why would I hate Germans?

And no, I am not like some of your fellow Jews waiting for Lubavitch Rebbe Schneerson to "rise".

Every religion has its heretics. Most Lubavitcher Hasidim are not under the impression that the late Rebbe was the messiah. Those who are under such an impression are heretics, treading perilously close to avodah zarah (forbidden worship).
 

roberto

Active Member
..... His website is nonsense.

Then you should study the book Hoshea which is all about the Northern 10 tribes.

I already noted that my problem is not with Christians as a whole. My problem is specific to those Christians who attempt to steal Jewish religion and Jewish authenticity to use as a cloak for Christianity.

Then you should love me as I want nothing to do with Judaism and nothing to do with Christianity.

its simply because the 'mosaic law covenant' was an agreement between Israel and God. The rules imposed upon the Isrealites regarding what to wear and what to eat and when to celebrate a festival and for what length of time and what to sacrifice on what day has no connection to anyone else from any other nation.

It is purely a covenant between Israel and God. And a good example of one of the requirements given under the covenant is the Sabbath. It was only given to Israel to observe as a reminder that they had been freed from Egypt...so no other nation was freed from Egypt therefore the sabbath doesn't apply to anyone else.

However, the laws of God have been clearly stated in the 10 commandments & the law covenant, so the rest of us can know what his standards are. Anyone who wishes to draw close to Jehovah/Yahweh, will need to bring their life into harmony with Gods standards and the mosaic law teaches us how we can measure up.

Was not Paul the "appostle" to the Gentiles ? :

1Co 10:1 Now I would not have you ignorant, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 and were all immersed into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 and all ate the same spiritual food;
1Co 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Messiah.
 
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Levite

Higher and Higher
Then you should study the book Hoshea which is all about the Northern 10 tribes.

I studied Hoshea in a Biblical literature university class, in rabbinical school, and in a beit midrash, as well as on my own, with classical commentators as well as modern commentators. I still see nothing valid in the cited website.

Then you should love me as I want nothing to do with Judaism and nothing to do with Christianity.

Says the man with the Aramaic name of Jesus as his avatar (incorrectly vowelled, by the way), calling everything in Jewish scripture by its Hebrew name, and everything in Christian scripture by the Hebrew names assigned in the Christian translations of the "New Testament" used by missionaries to proselytize amongst the Jews....
 

roberto

Active Member
I studied Hoshea in a Biblical literature university class,..... I still see nothing valid in the cited website.....

Not my problem.

Says the man with the Aramaic name of Jesus as his avatar (incorrectly vowelled, by the way), calling everything in Jewish scripture by its Hebrew name, and everything in Christian scripture by the Hebrew names assigned in the Christian translations of the "New Testament" used by missionaries to proselytize amongst the Jews....

I refuse to use "Adonai" or "Hashem" as this is the same problem in Christianity with "Lord" , "God" etc.

Yahweh raised Farao so that the Nations/Gentiles can learn and use the Name. Not my problem that Judaism and Christianity prefer to disobey this.

So he's an apostate. Or at best, some sort of radical heretic. Doesn't really make any difference. His website is nonsense.....

What is " Lashon hara " ? >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lashon_hara

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roberto

Active Member
I have compiled a short list[still busy], of Instructions from the 613 found in Torah.

Is there any person here who could help me decide which not to follow as I am a Gentile/Goy from the Nations.

The 248 Positive Mitzvot/Commandments: "The Do's"

Exodus 20:2 - To believe in God
Deuteronomy 6:4 -To acknowledge the Unity of God
Deuteronomy 6:5 - To love God
Deuteronomy 6:13 - To fear God
Exodus23:25; Deuteronomy11:13; 13:5 - To serve God
Deuteronomy10:20 - To cleave to God
Deuteronomy 28:9 - On walking in God's ways
Leviticus22:32 - On Sanctifying God's Name
Deuteronomy 6:7 - On reciting the Sh'ma each morning and evening
Deuteronomy 8:10 - On praising God after eating, Grace after meals
Leviticus15:19 On Tumah of a menstruant woman
Leviticus15:2 On Tumah of a zav (man with a running issue)
Leviticus15:6 On Tumah of semen
Leviticus15:19 Tumah of a zavah (woman suffering from a running issue)
Numbers19:14 On Tumah of a human corpse
Leviticus15:16 On immersing in a mikveh to become ritually clean
Exodus34:21 On resting the land on the Sabbatical year
Leviticus17:13 Covering with earth the blood of slain fowl and beast
Leviticus11:9 Searching for the prescribed signs in fish, for eating
Exodus23:12 On resting on the Shabbat
Exodus12:16 On resting on the first day of Pesach
Leviticus23 On resting on Shavuot
Leviticus16:29, On resting on Yom Kippur
Leviticus23:35 On resting on the first day of Sukkot
Leviticus23:36 On resting on (the 8th day) Shemini Atzeret
Leviticus23:42 On dwelling in a Sukkah (booth) for seven days
Deuteronomy18:15 On heeding the Prophets
Deuteronomy16:18 Appointing Judges & Officers of the Court in every town
Leviticus19:15 Treating litigants equally/impartially before the law
Leviticus5:1 Anyone aware of evidence must come to court to testify
Deuteronomy12:2; On destroying all idolatry and its appurtenances
Deuteronomy23:14 Prepare place beyond the camp, so to keep sanitary &...
Leviticus5:23 On a robber to restore the stolen article to its owner
Deuteronomy15:8; On to give charity to the poor (Leviticus25:35-36)
Deuteronomy24:15 On paying the worker his wages on time
Exodus23:5 On helping unload when necessary a tired animal
Leviticus19:18 On love your neighbor as yourself
Leviticus19:36 On the law of accurate weights and measures
Leviticus 19:32 On honoring the old (and wise)
Exodus 20:12 On honoring parents
Gen 1:28 On to be fruitful and multiply

The 365 Negative Mitzvot/Commandments: "The Don'ts"

Exodus20:3 Not believing in any other god except the One God.
Exodus20:4 Not to make images for the purpose of worship
Leviticus19:4 Not to make an idol (even for others) to worship
Exodus20:20 Not to make figures of human beings
Exodus20:5 Not to bow down to an idol
Exodus20:5 Not to worship idols
Leviticus18:21 Not to hand over any children to Moloch
Leviticus19:31 Not to practice sorcery of the ov, necromancy
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Not my problem.

No, the problem would seem to be in the website. Your willingness to uncritically accept what it says seems only tangential to the actual problem.

I refuse to use "Adonai" or "Hashem" as this is the same problem in Christianity with "Lord" , "God" etc.
I have no idea what you're talking about. But nobody invited non-Jews to use Hebrew names for God, so I'm not sure it matters.

Yahweh raised Farao so that the Nations/Gentiles can learn and use the Name. Not my problem that Judaism and Christianity prefer to disobey this.
First of all, the term "Yahweh" is meaningless. It is the result of German Bible critics of the 18th and 19th century following the same error that the Latin translators made in presuming that the tetragrammaton was supposed to be pronounced according to the vowelling it is given. However, the vowelling it is always given is the vowelling for the name "Adonai," as a reminder to readers to say "Adonai" instead of trying to pronounce the tetragrammaton, whose correct pronunciation is unknown, and which we are proscribed from trying to find until it is revealed to us again. So ungainly names like "Jehovah," "Ieovah" "Yahoweh," "Yahweh," and such are simply the perpetuation of classic errors made by non-Jewish translators of Jewish text.

Second of all, huh?

God "raised Farao" so that Gentiles can use His name? I don't even know what this means. "Raised Farao?" Do you mean one of the Biblical Pharaohs? Or possibly the Italian jazz pianist Antonio Farao? And how is God raising this person (I presume it's a person) up? In any case, it sounds like completely fabricated replacement theology.

As for your big list of mitzvot, above, BTW-- while we generally believe that God appreciates the recognition that monotheistic awareness brings to Him, everything you mentioned was formulated for the Jewish People. While we hope and presume that some of the ethical concepts you mention will be taught in non-Jewish faiths and philosophies, since they represent actions which we think it best that everyone do or refrain from (as the case may be), it is for non-Jews to develop their own codes of ethics and morality in their own ways, according to their own paths of seeking out or touching the divine. Torah was not given to them, and we presume that this is because they will have their own sacred and moral traditions and teachings upon which to found their societies.
 
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roberto

Active Member
No, the problem would seem to be in the website. Your willingness to uncritically accept what it says seems only tangential to the actual problem.
I already told you in previous post that it " is not my problem " that you choose not to understand Hoshea and if you do not ask, well who am I to share my knowledge with a "Levite" eh?

I have no idea what you're talking about. But nobody invited non-Jews to use Hebrew names for God, so I'm not sure it matters.
God "raised Farao" so that Gentiles can use His name? I don't even know what this means. "Raised Farao?" Do you mean one of the Biblical Pharaohs? Or possibly the Italian jazz pianist Antonio Farao? And how is God raising this person (I presume it's a person) up? In any case, it sounds like completely fabricated replacement theology.

The Complete Jewish Bible with Rashi Commentary :
Shemot - Exodus - Chapter 9
16. But, for this [reason] I have allowed you to stand, in order to show you My strength and in order to declare My name all over the earth.
Exodus - Chapter 9 (Parshah Va'eira) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

Yeah, and "the chosen ones" refuse to declare His Name to the world/Gentiles, in direct contradiction with what is written. But then again, you guys do that throughout Torah , don't you ? Because you do not recognise the writen Torah as on the same level as your Talmoud.

As for your big list of mitzvot, above, BTW-- while we generally believe that God appreciates the recognition that monotheistic awareness brings to Him, everything you mentioned was formulated for the Jewish People.

it is for non-Jews to develop their own codes of ethics and morality in their own ways, according to their own paths of seeking out or touching the divine. Torah was not given to them, and we presume that this is because they will have their own sacred and moral traditions and teachings upon which to found their societies.

Come now, Pleeeease, Are you suggesting that I as a Gentile am not allowed to love YHVH with all of my heart and obey His instructions/Mitzvot just because you guys feel "chosen" ?

Have you ever heard the expression "the wheel has been invented; why re-invent it" ?
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Levite

Higher and Higher
I already told you in previous post that it " is not my problem " that you choose not to understand Hoshea and if you do not ask, well who am I to share my knowledge with a "Levite" eh?

I think I understand Hoshea quite well, thank you. My comprehension of Tanakh was complimented by the late Rabbi Dr. David Leiber z"l, who edited the Etz Chayim edition of Torah, and by Dr. Everett Fox, who translated the Five Books of Moses for Schocken Press, and by Dr. Tamara Eskenazi, who contributed to the JPS Tanakh Commentary series, when I studied with them during my rabbinic education and for my master's degrees in Jewish Studies and Rabbinic Literature.

And your credentials for scholarship are...?

The Complete Jewish Bible with Rashi Commentary:
"Shemot - Exodus - Chapter 9
16. But, for this [reason] I have allowed you to stand, in order to show you My strength and in order to declare My name all over the earth"

Yeah, and "the chosen ones" refuse to declare His Name to the world/Gentiles, in direct contradiction with what is written. But then again, you guys do that throughout Torah , don't you? Because you do not recognise the writen Torah as on the same level as your Talmoud.

We understand that Written and Oral Torah are indivisible halves of a single whole. Torah cannot be pulled apart, with different bits and bobs accepted and other parts not accepted.

In any case, for the record, Exodus 9:16-

ואולם בעבור זאת העמדתיך בעבור הראתך את כחי ולמען ספר שמי בכל הארץ׃
"Indeed, it is because of this that I set you forth: in order that I may show you all my strength, so that my name shall be spoken of throughout the land."

This is being said by God in the context of the Ten Plagues: the meaning being that the Egyptians will be forced to acknowledge that God is God and Pharaoh is not a god. Perhaps if one wished to extend the meaning of the verse by homiletical exegesis, one could say that indeed, all the nations of the world ought to acknowledge that God is God, but the classical commentators mostly choose to extend it temporally, saying that it means that Pharaoh will be an exemplar of God's power discussed in many succeeding generations.

All of which has nothing to do with the literal name used to refer to God. The names we use for God are the names by which He has made Himself known to us. Presumably, He has other, different names that other nations will use for Him. Just as other nations have their own faiths and traditions, their own ways of relating to God, and do not need ours.

The idea that somehow God has a single "real" name which we Jews selfishly keep from non-Jews, who are thus deprived of authentic nomenclature for God is just...silly. I can't recall the last time I heard theology so ludicrous.


Have you ever heard the expression "the wheel has been invented; why re-invent it"?

Because it's our wheel, not yours. And you have all the other wheels in the world to choose to employ. You have neither the need for ours nor the right to appropriate it.
 

roberto

Active Member
I think I understand Hoshea quite well, thank you. My comprehension of Tanakh was complimented by the late Rabbi Dr. David Leiber z"l, who edited the Etz Chayim edition of Torah, and by Dr. Everett Fox, who translated the Five Books of Moses for Schocken Press, and by Dr. Tamara Eskenazi, who contributed to the JPS Tanakh Commentary series, when I studied with them during my rabbinic education and for my master's degrees in Jewish Studies and Rabbinic Literature..

Fantastic, do you feel better now that you have made me feel small ?

And your credentials for scholarship are...?

Goy.

.....In any case, for the record, Exodus 9:16-
ואולם בעבור זאת העמדתיך בעבור הראתך את כחי ולמען ספר שמי בכל הארץ׃
"Indeed, it is because of this that I set you forth: in order that I may show you all my strength, so that my name shall be spoken of throughout the land."..............>>>saying that it means that Pharaoh will be an exemplar of God's power discussed in many succeeding generations.

Nope, it specifically states "my name" , not power.

Because it's our wheel, not yours. And you have all the other wheels in the world to choose to employ. You have neither the need for ours nor the right to appropriate it.
The Complete Jewish Bible with Rashi Commentry
Yeshayahu- Isaiah - Chapter 2
1. The word that Isaiah, son of Amoz, prophesied concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2. And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and all the nations shall stream to it.
3. And many peoples shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount, to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
4. And he shall judge between the nations and reprove many peoples, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift the sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.
5. "O house of Jacob, come and let us go in the light of the Lord."

The House of Judah still does not believe that the end of days have arrived because of their dim light they want to shine on the Goy. Shame on them:
"...I have my torch, you cant use it , it's MY torch...." wheeeee !
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roberto

Active Member
I think I understand Hoshea quite well, thank you. .

Then please explain from your point of view how the Northern tribes were "redeemed"[bought back] , seeing that you believe they have returned.

Yirmiyahu - Jeremiah - Chapter 3
8. And I saw, because of all that backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I sent her away, and I gave her her bill of divorcement, yet treacherous Judah, her sister, did not fear, and she too went and played the harlot.

Have YHVH married them again, and when did this happen "Levite" ?

Please note that the house of Judah was never divorced by YHVH.

So are you suggesting that the Northern tribes were/was married again to YHVH and that this happened when 10 Israel converted to Judaism , "Levite" ?

So then if this is tru/e it means that Judah was their[10 israel]'s redeemer ?

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