Why do Gentiles assume they should follow the ten commandments?

[Whoitbe]

Obviously we are not talking about Mea Shearim. but about Christianity in North America.
although you are pretty wrong in your description of modern Judaism, Modern Judaism is certainly not limited to the ghetto of Mea Shearim and the Haredri MINORITY. Judaism as it is practiced across Israel is much more stable in regards to modern life.


The Hebrew bible has shaped western society and Christian culture more than any other text, it is an outdated concept to hold the Hebrew bible as exclusively relevant to Jewish culture.

Thanks for responding. This is true to an extent and I don't deny what you're saying. Apart from the Torah being outdated, but - that's a seperate discussion to what you're saying. In fact, the entire discussion were having now is pretty irrelevant to the question earlier prompted seeing as I was focusing on the exegetical methods in which one can derive the Christian logic via textual analyzation for following the 10 commandments.

"however Jewish culture is immersed in 'gentile' society, modern Jews cannot claim complete mandate over the scriptures that are officially and practically part of Christian livelihood."

Youre talking about both when you make that statement. To highlight a counter argument to what you're saying (though I'm not entirely agreeing), the average haredi birthrate in Israel is 7.7 children. In due time, they will not be a minority amongst the general Jewish population.*

Either way, its all irrelevant. Unbroken chains of ideology do remain from antiquity. Its all in the Gemara But, I say Jews do have mandate over the Torah is a legal document with stories in it. And all the laws were given to us to keep and to administer. We were given our responsibilities and Gentiles there's. That's it. It's what the Torah says. I'm not at all though saying the Torah is irrelevant to Gentiles. Nor am I disputing the developmetal influence it has had on western culture. I'm saying based on the text itself, most of the laws are irrelevant to Gentiles. Including some of ten commandments. There's no reason why they can't derive things from the laws and stories at all. Everyone is entited and encouraged to. But, at the end of the day, the Torah was indeed given to the Jews. Remember, Jews view the Torah as a legal document - not a history book. Read this:


1. In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth. א. בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אֱ־לֹהִים אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ:

In the beginning: Said Rabbi Isaac: It was not necessary to begin the Torah except from “This month is to you,” (Exod. 12:2) which is the first commandment that the Israelites were commanded, (for the main purpose of the Torah is its commandments, and although several commandments are found in Genesis, e.g., circumcision and the prohibition of eating the thigh sinew, they could have been included together with the other commandments). Now for what reason did He commence with “In the beginning?” Because of [the verse] “The strength of His works He related to His people, to give them the inheritance of the nations” (Ps. 111:6). For if the nations of the world should say to Israel, “You are robbers, for you conquered by force the lands of the seven nations [of Canaan],” they will reply, "The entire earth belongs to the Holy One, blessed be He; He created it (this we learn from the story of the Creation) and gave it to whomever He deemed proper When He wished, He gave it to them, and when He wished, He took it away from them and gave it to us.

 

[Caladan]

Either way, its all irrelevant. Unbroken chains of ideology do remain from antiquity. Its all in the Gemara But, I say Jews do have mandate over the Torah is a legal document with stories in it. And all the laws were given to us to keep and to administer. We were given our responsibilities and Gentiles there's. That's it. It's what the Torah says. I'm not at all though saying the Torah is irrelevant to Gentiles. Nor am I disputing the developmetal influence it has had on western culture. I'm saying based on the text itself, most of the laws are irrelevant to Gentiles. Including some of ten commandments. There's no reason why they can't derive things from the laws and stories at all. Everyone is entited and encouraged to. But, at the end of the day, the Torah was indeed given to the Jews. Remember, Jews view the Torah as a legal document - not a history book. Read this:

I agree. most of the laws ARE irrelevant to gentiles, however the Hebrew bible has also become the inheritance of the gentiles.

1. In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth. א. בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אֱ־לֹהִים אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ:

In the beginning: Said Rabbi Isaac: It was not necessary to begin the Torah except from “This month is to you,” (Exod. 12:2) which is the first commandment that the Israelites were commanded, (for the main purpose of the Torah is its commandments, and although several commandments are found in Genesis, e.g., circumcision and the prohibition of eating the thigh sinew, they could have been included together with the other commandments). Now for what reason did He commence with “In the beginning?” Because of [the verse] “The strength of His works He related to His people, to give them the inheritance of the nations” (Ps. 111:6). For if the nations of the world should say to Israel, “You are robbers, for you conquered by force the lands of the seven nations [of Canaan],” they will reply, "The entire earth belongs to the Holy One, blessed be He; He created it (this we learn from the story of the Creation) and gave it to whomever He deemed proper When He wished, He gave it to them, and when He wished, He took it away from them and gave it to us.

These are good passages. and I would claim the same, the Hebrew bible is the text of the Jewish culture and people, it has sprang from them, and it has been studied by them throughout the centuries. however the point im bringing in this OP, is that as Jews we can not claim exclusivity on a text which has led western society in various dramatic historical episodes, and which is read daily in countless of churches and seminars around the world. it should be cherished by us as Jews, that gentiles cherish the Hebrew bible and that it has a great importance to society at large.

 

[truseeker]

Do you think it is OK to kill someone? Is it OK to steal? What part of the 10 commandments would not be good for everyone to follow? Seems to me the world would be much better and safer if everyone followed the rules listed in the 10 commandments. Just imagine a world with no murder, no theft, no cheating, etc. Seems like God had some good ideas but men don't want to admit it.

 

[Whoitbe]

Do you think it is OK to kill someone? Is it OK to steal? What part of the 10 commandments would not be good for everyone to follow? Seems to me the world would be much better and safer if everyone followed the rules listed in the 10 commandments. Just imagine a world with no murder, no theft, no cheating, etc. Seems like God had some good ideas but men don't want to admit it.

Ever read the story of Noah? All the commandments you just listed are mentioned in there. One of the commandments was to have a justice system and build courts. You could effectively established anything you want as long as it doesn't contradict Torah law.

 

[Whoitbe]

I agree. most of the laws ARE irrelevant to gentiles, however the Hebrew bible has also become the inheritance of the gentiles.


These are good passages. and I would claim the same, the Hebrew bible is the text of the Jewish culture and people, it has sprang from them, and it has been studied by them throughout the centuries. however the point im bringing in this OP, is that as Jews we can not claim exclusivity on a text which has led western society in various dramatic historical episodes, and which is read daily in countless of churches and seminars around the world. it should be cherished by us as Jews, that gentiles cherish the Hebrew bible and that it has a great importance to society at large.

The Torah has become influential or an inheritance? I see your point and all, but under what pretenses? Just because someone uses something does mean it's inherently there's or even there's at all. Furthermore, if you read the Torah, an overwhelming amount of movements within Christianity used it to fit their own neo-pagan religions and customs and things otherwise completely irrelevant to the Torah itself... Like Christmas and Shabbat becoming Sunday and abandonment of the lunar calendar. Now, you could make the same argument on Jews if you presume the Torah was made up (do a wikipedia on Tammuz or a google on early Egyptian religious practices and law). Personally, I don't believe that and it's irrelevant in a sense since we're talking about a movement which later developed from this said original movement. It does however hold some measure scrutiny which makes it hard for any Jew to defend their viewpoint, but still doesn't do justice to an actual methodology to learning the text.

So, to refute it for the sake of falsification from a historical standpoint in the case of understanding who says what, what he/she meant when he said it, what this line comes to tell us and so on and so forth - does very little to defend the standpoint of who the Torah actually belongs to. Ultimately, it belongs to G-d. However, G-d gave it to the Jews. Nu? And effectively a gross misunderstanding of an already cryptic text has lead to various misleading developments in theology and ideology surrounding the subject matter. So, it seemingly does and has belonged to them on a gross misunderstanding of what is actually said - which as I said before has lead to endless bloodshed. The misuse of something powerful usually tends to lead to catastrophe. What is the misuse, though? Well, I'm sure you see what I'm getting at.

 

[Beta]

Do you think it is OK to kill someone? Is it OK to steal? What part of the 10 commandments would not be good for everyone to follow? Seems to me the world would be much better and safer if everyone followed the rules listed in the 10 commandments. Just imagine a world with no murder, no theft, no cheating, etc. Seems like God had some good ideas but men don't want to admit it.

You are right friend , the Commandments are a code of conduct to promote happy, united and peaceful living. Ignore them and we get the opposite way of life. 6000 years of human experience should have taught us this !

 

[Beta]

I agree. most of the laws ARE irrelevant to gentiles, however the Hebrew bible has also become the inheritance of the gentiles.

...... that gentiles cherish the Hebrew bible and that it has a great importance to society at large.

True , the Hebrew Bible has become the inheritance of the gentiles but it is totally UNTRUE that they cherish it.
They trample underfoot the most important of the Commandments - the holy sanctified day of God - the 7th day Sabbath.
Since it is contained in the eternal spiritual laws that are holy, just and good (the 10 Commandments) it applies equally to all men Mk.2v27 at all times Rom.7 (NT). :yes:
There will be punishment on the Christians for breaking it just as there was for Israel and Judah (OT).:yes:

 

[Zardoz]

Ever read the story of Noah? All the commandments you just listed are mentioned in there. One of the commandments was to have a justice system and build courts. You could effectively established anything you want as long as it doesn't contradict Torah law.

:yes:

On Shabbat: It is not a part of Noachide Law, and when Yeshua is talking about Shabbat he is doing so with other Jews ONLY. Christians have their Sunday worship and that's fine for them, but that does not make it Shabbat, but since they are not obligated to observe Shabbat it really doesn't matter what day of the week they pick.

 

[james2ko]

On Shabbat: It is not a part of Noachide Law, .

I'm always interested in learning viewpoints from other Abrahamic faiths. Was not the Sabbath instituted at creation (Gen 2:2-3)? Could the Sabbath command have been a statute under the Noachide law of Idolatry?

and when Yeshua is talking about Shabbat he is doing so with other Jews ONLY

If the Sabbath was only for the Jews He was addressing, why didn't Jesus make it clear to them? He, instead, emphasized the Sabbath was created for all mankind to benefit, not just the Jews (Mark 2:27).

Christians have their Sunday worship and that's fine for them, but that does not make it Shabbat, but since they are not obligated to observe Shabbat it really doesn't matter what day of the week they pick

Oh, but we are obligated, It's just that most of Christianity feels the Sabbath can be observed on just any day.

 

[Whoitbe]

I'm always interested in learning viewpoints from other Abrahamic faiths. Was not the Sabbath instituted at creation (Gen 2:2-3)? Could the Sabbath command have been a statute under the Noachide law of Idolatry?



If the Sabbath was only for the Jews He was addressing, why didn't Jesus make it clear to them? He, instead, emphasized the Sabbath was created for all mankind to benefit, not just the Jews (Mark 2:27).



Oh, but we are obligated, It's just that most of Christianity feels the Sabbath can be observed on just any day.

Sabbath was more or less instituted ON the 6th day. The patriarchs actually according, I think to the Talmud and other midrashim and definitely chassidus and kabbalah talk about this. I'll find you a source if you want to know about that. However, it was not necessarily a binding commandment on anyone. Avraham, yitzchok, yaakov, and Moshe all kept them out of their own piety even though the Torah was given. I don't think noach did.

Also, I'd like to hear an explanation for him saying this for Jews only. It would make sense seeing as he was kind of s Pharisee.

But, either way, whatever he said. You, as a gentile, have no obligation what so ever to keep shabbat. Promise you this. I think actually that may of been something punishable by death under Jewish law if it's done in the same way a Jew does it(I.e. Kiddush, havdallah, abstaining from all the melachos - work etc) I think it's talked about in the tractate Sanhedrin in the talmud. But, I presume you reject all that since the Talmud is not seen as valid? But, it's a *disagreement among some opinions as to whether they're put to death or even forbidden in all.

Read my post on the prior page it tells you why you're not obligated(page 1 I think on the bottom).*

 

[james2ko]

However, it was not necessarily a binding commandment on anyone. I don't think noach did.

Is there any way to be sure?

Also, I'd like to hear an explanation for him saying this for Jews only. It would make sense seeing as he was kind of s Pharisee.

What do you mean?

But, either way, whatever he said. You, as a gentile, have no obligation what so ever to keep shabbat.

As a Gentile maybe not. But as a Spiritual Israelite, most definitely

Promise you this. I think actually that may of been something punishable by death under Jewish law if it's done in the same way a Jew does it(I.e. Kiddush, havdallah, abstaining from all the melachos - work etc) I think it's talked about in the tractate Sanhedrin in the talmud. But, I presume you reject all that since the Talmud is not seen as valid? But, it's a *disagreement among some opinions as to whether they're put to death or even forbidden in all.

I was taught the administration of death was instituted to show Israel the result of wrong conduct. It was part of the law code which was “added because of transgressions” (Gal 3:19). But it was only to last “till the seed (Christ) should come.”

 

[Whoitbe]

Is there any way to be sure?



What do you mean?



As a Gentile maybe not. But as a Spiritual Israelite, most definitely



I was taught the administration of death was instituted to show Israel the result of wrong conduct. It was part of the law code which was “added because of transgressions” (Gal 3:19). But it was only to last “till the seed (Christ) should come.”

How you can be sure that shabbat was a mitzvah kept(before it was actually a mitzvah)? Or how you can be sure that the entire mitzvot of the Torah were kept prior to it being given?I'll find you a source once I can post links for sure or pm it to you. A lot of it relies on acceptance of midrashic interpretation. A different discussion all together, really. Off hand, I can list you one example that mitzvot were kept before they were commanded.

I forget what part of genesis it's in, but if you can find parshas vaiyetzei... Or vaiyetzie. Forget how it is transliterated. But, where Jacob deals with the sheep it alludes to tefillin(phylactricies). Another would be where avraham gives a tithe to melchitzadek in genesis. Giving a 10th of your fruit/wine to the kohanim(priests of aharon) was a commandment only after the Torah was given. So, mitzvot were evidently being kept prior to the giving of the Torah. I'll find you a source when I'm on a computer(I'm typing on an iPod lol, I came to Israel with an itouch for international communication lol) and can post links (15+ posts).

As for being a "spiritual Israelite", not to rain on your parade, but the notion of being a spiritual Israelite is obtained by means of matrilineal birth and patriarchal inheritence(I.e. The kohanim, Levites, and Israelites are defined by status of the farther). However, part of the formality of the covenent which makes one a "spiritual Israelite", if you will, was the bris(or brit if you're Israeli/sephardic lol), the circumsision. The *bris is more than a slicing of the shmeckle, y'know. It's a covenent of the soul which Avraham made with G-d. Why else would he cut off his shmeckle? Other than the fact that G-d commanded him. To differentiate, partly. Health concerns, partly as well and possibly even purposes of pleasure depending on how you argue and hold. These are all materialistic reasons though. The Torah is about uniting physicality with G-dliness through means of law.


"I was taught the administration of death was instituted to show Israel the result of wrong conduct. It was part of the law code which was “added because of transgressions” (Gal 3:19). But it was only to last “till the seed (Christ) should come.”"

I'll be honest with you, I have not read Gal 3:19. But, death was instituted for reasons which contradict your statement of Christ being involved. I'll explain it to the best of my abilities. As a precursor to everything I say, take what I say with a grain of salt - most of it anyways, I'm only telling you what my education has revealed to me and I hope, G-d willing, I'm not misleading anyone. I'm not a rabbi. Lol.

What I've learned as to the reason death was instituted as a capital punishment, was that death was for the purpose of atonement. The biggest precursor to what I've learned and understand to everything in the Torah is simple and provable, especially by means of textual analysis. That is when G-d speaks, what he says is eternal and to be adhered to until your very last breath. G-d says to institute a legal system which revolves around capital punishment, we do it. We do what we're commanded by ONLY G-d Himself.

The way capital punishment works in Judaism is extrmely complex and extrapulated to a great extent in the Talmud. For example, in order to institute a death sentence through the Beis Din(Jewish court), you needed two witnesses at least, the witnesses were thoroughly investigated and cross examined, the witnesses had to warn the defendent twice, once warning him what he was doing is wrog. A second time explaining this is punishbale by so and so, etc. The defendant had to know what he was doing was wrong. Also, in many cases, if not all to my knowledge, there had to be exactly 22/23 judges deciding he was guilty in order to put him to death. Depending on the case, I'm not sure. But I can find you references if you want as well. It's an extremely complex system which made it hard to put a person to death.

That being said, death was the atonement G-d told us to administer in order administer in certain cases in order to atone for one sins. Death is usually in all cases an atonement when found guilty to the best of my knowledge.*Though I'm not sure about all cases. I'm pretty sure there are a few exceptions.

So, I suppose that the law was instituted for transgressions. But, one always has the ability to transgress. Therefor, it must be corrected. In fact, when moschiach comes, were going to reinstitute the death penalty and sacrifices. Because we'll have the Beis HaMikdosh(temple) and a sanhedrin(high court) capable of executing what G-d told us to do. Bottom line: if there's no high court and enough rabbis with real semicha(proper rabbinic ordination, do a wikipedia on it's an important term to know) laws like this cannot be upheld. So it's easy for one to think these laws became unecessary since were no longer capable of instituting them. But you can thank the Romans for that. Not Jesus.

 

[Flankerl]

These are good passages. and I would claim the same, the Hebrew bible is the text of the Jewish culture and people, it has sprang from them, and it has been studied by them throughout the centuries. however the point im bringing in this OP, is that as Jews we can not claim exclusivity on a text which has led western society in various dramatic historical episodes, and which is read daily in countless of churches and seminars around the world. it should be cherished by us as Jews, that gentiles cherish the Hebrew bible and that it has a great importance to society at large.

I can certainly see that it is a good thing that the goyim cherish the tanakh even though it could have worked out for them without the tanakh. And i dont mean that you cant live a good life without the tanakh.
But dont you see a problem that many of the translations change the the texts sometimes quite strong?

 

[Caladan]

I can certainly see that it is a good thing that the goyim cherish the tanakh even though it could have worked out for them without the tanakh. And i dont mean that you cant live a good life without the tanakh.
But dont you see a problem that many of the translations change the the texts sometimes quite strong?

Yes the 'lost in translation' phenomenon can be quite tiering.

 

[james2ko]

How you can be sure that shabbat was a mitzvah kept(before it was actually a mitzvah)? Or how you can be sure that the entire mitzvot of the Torah were kept prior to it being given?I'll find you a source once I can post links for sure or pm it to you. A lot of it relies on acceptance of midrashic interpretation. A different discussion all together, really. Off hand, I can list you one example that mitzvot were kept before they were commanded.

I forget what part of genesis it's in, but if you can find parshas vaiyetzei... Or vaiyetzie. Forget how it is transliterated. But, where Jacob deals with the sheep it alludes to tefillin(phylactricies). Another would be where avraham gives a tithe to melchitzadek in genesis. Giving a 10th of your fruit/wine to the kohanim(priests of aharon) was a commandment only after the Torah was given. So, mitzvot were evidently being kept prior to the giving of the Torah. I'll find you a source when I'm on a computer(I'm typing on an iPod lol, I came to Israel with an itouch for international communication lol) and can post links (15+ posts).

As for being a "spiritual Israelite", not to rain on your parade, but the notion of being a spiritual Israelite is obtained by means of matrilineal birth and patriarchal inheritence(I.e. The kohanim, Levites, and Israelites are defined by status of the farther). However, part of the formality of the covenent which makes one a "spiritual Israelite", if you will, was the bris(or brit if you're Israeli/sephardic lol), the circumsision. The *bris is more than a slicing of the shmeckle, y'know. It's a covenent of the soul which Avraham made with G-d. Why else would he cut off his shmeckle? Other than the fact that G-d commanded him. To differentiate, partly. Health concerns, partly as well and possibly even purposes of pleasure depending on how you argue and hold. These are all materialistic reasons though. The Torah is about uniting physicality with G-dliness through means of law.

Here's what I was taught:

1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.​

To Christians, the ceremonial and sacrificial laws were temporarily suspended with the sacrifice of the Messiah, Jesus Christ, which includes the ritual of physical circumcision. Although a good health practice, it is not required for salvation. BTW..I do keep the Sabbath. Not in the same way the Pharisees did. But in the way Jesus' exemplified.

"not to rain on your parade","if you will, was the bris(or brit if you're Israeli/sephardic lol), the circumsision."

Not to worry. I always wear a raincoat

In fact, when moschiach comes, were going to reinstitute the death penalty and sacrifices.

I actually agree with you on the sacrifices being reinstituted and the temple rebuilt during the Millenial rule of Jesus Christ, as alluded to in Ezekiel chapters 40-47. No indication of a reinstatement of the death penalty during that time.

 

[Whoitbe]

"To Christians, the ceremonial and sacrificial laws were temporarily suspended with the sacrifice of the Messiah, Jesus Christ, which includes the ritual of physical circumcision. Although a good health practice, it is not required for salvation. BTW..I do keep the Sabbath. Not in the same way the Pharisees did. But in the way Jesus' exemplified. "

Problem is, G-d, when he said to the Jews to circumsize, he intended to for them to do this for all time. Circumsision and redemption more or less have very little to do with eachother. Kores(or cutting off of the soul) is only applicable when you know you're Jewish, know what the Torah says, know the importance of the Torah, yet still don't get circumsision in this case. Only then will he be cut off. Otherwise, if you're unaware of those circumstances - in addition to more which I didn't list, the judgement doesn't apply. They would be under the status of kidnapped children, thus how can we blame them? Besides, whoever said that having a circumsision saves you from judgement?*

Moschiach doesn't suspend G-ds law, he enforces it!*

Genesis

12. And at the age of eight days, every male shall be circumcised to you throughout your generations, one that is born in the house, or one that is purchased with money, from any foreigner, who is not of your seed.

Notice how it says throughout your generations, as in the generations of Abraham. And as in as long as his generations exist. So, it cannot be voided under any circumstance what so ever - unless it is to save a life.

"I actually agree with you on the sacrifices being reinstituted and the temple rebuilt during the Millenial rule of Jesus Christ, as alluded to in Ezekiel chapters 40-47. No indication of a reinstatement of the death penalty during that time."

Death penalties never technically became void in the first place,. In fact, we still could technically institute them, believe it or not. Sacrifices were the only thing which could not be done outside the proper places(Temple and Tabernacle). *Therefor, its only logical we continue them when we rebuild the tenple. The only reason we cannot execute the death penalty, contrary to what you may have though, is because we have no rabbis with semicha.*

To clarify what semicha is:

Semicha is the ordination of a rabbi which allows for rendering judgement. It comes from a long chain of rabbis passed down from Moses. The rabbi(s) would be ordained by a judge who was ordained to render judgement with the approval of the Nasi(head rabbi of the Sanhedrin, Sanhedrin is the high court) or judge who was ordained with semicha and to give semicha. I don't want to get into it as it's a lengthy discussion and complicated one and I'm not very familiar with it. However, if you really want to know how it works, it is talked about in the Rambams Hilchos Sanhedrin, chapter 4. I've got the book in front of me and it's too much for me to process right now. But, do a google on hilchos sanhedrin chapter 4 in English or hilchos Sanhedrin and I'm sure you can find it. If not try a Jewish book shop or ask a rabbi if you want a good explanation for yourself. In short though, we have no rabbis powerful enough to execute the penalty(or atonement, if you will) of death. Read it for yourself, though. And it will explain things. In short, we simply don't have powerful enough rabbis.

This link talks about semicha some and a controversy which arose a few hundred years ago in tzfat(Safed).

Dei'ah veDibur - Information & Insight - OPINION & COMMENT

*

 

[james2ko]

Problem is, G-d, when he said to the Jews to circumsize, he intended to for them to do this for all time.

Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting [olawm]covenant.
​

I'm not so sure God intended "physical" circumcision to be an everlasting covenant to identify His people. According to the Torah, the Hebrew word used for everlasting in Gen 17:13 is "olawm" which could also mean continuous, so long as the factors involved exist. Notice three scriptures, that use the same word for everlasting used in Gen 17:13, where this meaning is made plain. Men could be the slaves of a master forever--meaning till the death of one of the parties:

Exo 21:6 then his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall also bring him to the door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him forever[olawm].

Lev 25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever[olawm] but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

Deu 15:17 then you shall take an awl and thrust it through his ear to the door, and he shall be your servant forever.[olawm] Also to your female servant you shall do likewise.​

The ordinance of circumcision was an outward physical sign of one's willingness to obey God and be one of His chosen people. Under the New Covenant, God is calling a spiritual nation composed of individuals converted and regenerated by His Holy Spirit. God's people now are all to be "circumcised" spiritually.

Physical circumcision is no longer necessary for religious purposes. It was a forerunner or type of what God really wanted—circumcision of the heart (Deuteronomy 10:16; 30:6; Jeremiah 4:4). Paul told the congregation in Rome that physical circumcision is of no spiritual benefit (Romans 2:25-29). Spiritual circumcision, though, is a process of conversion. That Christ circumcises us spiritually is made plain in Colossians 2:10-11.

 

[Whoitbe]

Right, but Abrahams circumsision was more than a dicing of the peckle. It WAS a circumsision of the heart. *Every single mitzvah G-d gives has a deep, spiritual inner dimension as well as an external one. You think circumsision as Jews do it today has no holiness to it? Putting the covenent in the flesh greatly reflected and reflects the innerness of the covenent made with the Jewish people. If you really want to see what the depth of circumsision is about, read this:

Lech Lecha - Vol VI - Bereishis

Read and see that there is a deep inner dimension to this mitzvah directly related to the soul. You think G-d would have us cut off our shmeckle so He can have us simply so he can have us display outwardly are willingness in servitude?Not to say that isn't a part of it necessarily. But it's definitely not all there is to it. Ever wonder why Jews wear tzitzit?

 

[james2ko]

]Right, but Abrahams circumsision was more than a dicing of the peckle. It WAS a circumsision of the heart. *Every single mitzvah G-d gives has a deep, spiritual inner dimension as well as an external one. You think circumsision as Jews do it today has no holiness to it? Putting the covenent in the flesh greatly reflected and reflects the innerness of the covenent made with the Jewish people. If you really want to see what the depth of circumsision is about, read this:

Never seen it quite like this before...lol

 

[Whoitbe]

Never seen it quite like this before...lol

There's age old kabbalistic texts and midrashim which suggest the lofty spiritual impact every mitzvah, especially the bris, has on one's soul. At least they're age old according to when they were concieved(kabbalah and midrash were passed down by oral tradition, so a lot of kabbalistic and midrashic text didn't experience much attention in midevil times when they were published) Read that link though. That will blow your mind if you take it all in. At first glance, one might think that what Judaism has to offer is spiritually dry. With the black hats and lack of Christmas, but, it's not really an ism. It's a spiritually fertile and intellectually dynamic function of the Jewish people. It's not a religion. It's Torah.