Why do God/s "hide" from disbelievers?

[blü 2]

If you really wanted to know whether God exists or not, you would be doing everything to Discover. I have pointed the way.

That's simply untrue. You've totally failed to back your assertion that God is real, and obviously you no more know what a real god is than I do. You haven't even defined the imaginary god you've constructed in your head.

The only way anyone will know God exists is to have direct contact.

That statement is still meaningless, even after all these posts. It requires the brain to internally construct its god ─ resulting in an entity that doesn't intersect with reality at all.

You sorely need that objective test for truth.

 

[Andrew Reil]

tl;dr: prime directive to maintain moral agency

long answer:

I believe as an individual we have always existed and always will exist, that individuals cannot be created (even by God) or destroyed. We can be given a spirit and a physical body, but the "me" inside that body is eternal. Otherwise there is no real moral agency. If we were created evil then it's not our fault that we're evil. But if we cannot be created, if we are eternal, then we choose to either become evil or good.

I believe that our Heavenly Parents, our Heavenly Father and Mother bore us as spirits, giving us a human spirit body similar to the mortal body we would eventually be getting. They also raised us in love and learning.

I believe that eventually we needed to come to earth, as they did before, and choose for ourselves to become what we choose to become. We had to temporarily forget our past of being reared and taught by our Heavenly Parents and friends so that we would genuinely be free to choose our own path. This is the ultimate of "if you love something, let it go, if it comes back, it's yours, if it doesn't, it never was".

I believe that in this life our Father makes it so there is no proof that He is real, we are left to ideas and interpretations. He will only reveal Himself to us in small steps countering our exercised decisions to become like Him. The more we follow Him, the closer we get to Him.

I believe that our Heavenly Father sent two Gods to help us: His only begotten Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. Both are exactly obedient to Him (John 8:29), and are in complete agreement with Him. They are "one" with Him but in agreement and understanding, not physically (John 17:22). The role of Jesus Christ is to pay the ultimate price of the atonement and die on the cross and be resurrected for us. This would give Him knowledge and power to cleanse us, heal us and save us. He can grow us to be like Him, with our choosing by our heart and actions. He can make us holy, without spot. He will resurrect us (give us our physical bodies back in a glorified form). The role of the Holy Ghost is to deliver truth to our hearts and minds. His biggest most important message is that Jesus Christ is our Savior. It's subtle and doesn't interfere with our moral agency because we can easily reject the message. We can easily believe what we want. But if we're interested we can accept the message from the Holy Ghost. Our acceptance does not interfere with anyone else's moral agency because we cannot give them that truth into their minds and hearts like the Holy Ghost can, we can only testify what we ourselves have felt. They must get their own answers if they want it and pursue it.

I believe that before Judgement day (over 1,000 years from now) everyone will have the opportunity either in this mortal life, or in the spirit world after they die to learn about this (1 Pet 4:6). Even if they reject it and stop learning, they will be faced with what they will acknowledge as the truth at Judgement day. At that point I believe the vast majority of people will accept it, including accepting Jesus Christ, and will therefore go to a level of heaven (1 Cor 15:40-42). Very few will reject God even after they know that it's all real. These will not be forced to accept Him. They will not go to heaven, but rather to outer darkness.

I believe, therefore, that it is important to our Heavenly Parents that we are genuinely free to choose who we want to become by our decisions.

 

[Loaai]

Because God doesn't exist like you, me, a dog or particule, but more like a dream or caracter of fiction. He exist only in your mind and in the mind of those who believe in him. Note that even amongst believers, God is always a bit different.

Haven't you asked yourself once why you, a dog or particule even exist in the first place?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Second, would you feel a need to hide from someone who didn't believe you existed?

Hmm.

 

[Loaai]

The word god is an ambiguous word. When a believer asks "why don't you believe in god?" They're referring to their specific god. It's an unhelpful question given "I don't believe in god" signals to, for example, a christian they don't believe in "his or her" god.

A productive question (I'm not saying your question isn't productive) to ask is "what is your experience of awe?" or What experience changed your life drastically that you never been the same since... what do you do or value that makes you feel whole?

Aka. The question (not you and any particular believer) is biased.

-
Also, because believers (any believer) have preset definitions of god, many atheists only go by that preset definition given to them not their own (if they have one as being an atheist many don't). So, instead of rejecting gods in general (pagan, eastern, mythological, abrahamic, etc), they just reject the "abrahamic" god-Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Bahai, and otherwise.

If the believer (any believer) has no intentions of learning about atheists views without interpreting it through his or her religious biases (which is hard, takes a lot of openness and patience), it's hard for the atheist to be reciprocal, and be interested in the views of believers.

You (not accusing you of being wrong or anything) have to be mindful that there are different definitions of gods that are not all creators and don't have similarities to abrahamic definitions. The experiences are different than abrahamics.

Therefore, it's not that god (abrahamic) hides from atheists. It's just that believers have predefinitions of god, and by definition atheists do not.

I know that it can be overwhelming to even think about learning the Abrahamic religions, but there are still questions that have no scientific answers, Like why/how do we exist, what caused the big bang (if it's even true) and whether or not life has a purpose, if you look into some verses in the Quran (which is the last Abrahamic religion) you would find literal scientific miracles said 1400 years ago, I'm just telling you that I (as a Muslim) am completely open minded to discuss this topic, but are you willing to?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why does it seems like God or Gods hide from disbelievers but atleast in some way are recognised by or shown to believers?

Any thoughts?

Why do they hide from God?

Reminds me of a poem or two I wrote sometime ago, in difficult times;

To remove the veils

Oh My Creator, my Love my aim,
my Passion, my service my pain.
My heart sings for a glimpse of thee,
lonely, languishing, longing to be set free.

What am I, that this longing be?
What am I, that I cannot see?

Graciously moulded from water and clay,
Given heart and Spirit, must find the way,
to remove the veils of an errant day.
placed by self content by worldly sway.

Forgiven, Gifted and blessed by thee
You stand within, so close to me.
Why do I veil myself there from?
Why do I shut the doors there on?

Graciously moulded from water and clay,
Given heart and Spirit, must find the way,
to remove the veils of an errant day.
placed by self, content by worldly sway.

I now pray to Thee, God of all humanity,
that we understand what it is to be free,
free to willingly remove the myriad Veils,
preventing transformation on a worldly scale,
yearning from within, may thee now shine,
resplendent unhindered proof of the divine.

T Bristow-Stagg
Mercy 10, BE 172 (3rd July 2015)

There is also this one;

But a moth

I am but a moth smitten by thy flame,
If I want to dive in, can I be put to blame?

Flame devourers, ashes fall to the ground,
spirit released, it is now not mortal bound.

What can my soul then recount and say,
when meeting its maker upon that very day?

T'was your love that called me in,
who am I to reject a whim?

I am but a moth smitten by the flame,
If only I could dive in again and again.

Oh would that thou let me choose this path,
To the lovers in Iran, would flee my heart.

TBS 2 June 2015 Grandeur 17, BE 172

Regards Tony

 

[epronovost]

Haven't you asked yourself once why you, a dog or particule even exist in the first place?

Yes I did. What's your point?

 

[PureX]

Why does it seems like God or Gods hide from disbelievers but atleast in some way are recognised by or shown to believers?

Any thoughts?

Expectations define our experience much of the time. We won't see what we don't look for. And what we do see, we understand according to what we expected it to be. Perception is all about our brains putting what we see into categories of preconceived understanding. Once we decide gods don't exist, we render ourselves unable and unlikely to ever perceive anything as being 'of God'.

 

[Bird123]

Wow. Bluebird. Just have to say you're totally missing Blu's point.

Just sayin'

Maybe you can explain it too me better.

 

[Bird123]

That's simply untrue. You've totally failed to back your assertion that God is real, and obviously you no more know what a real god is than I do. You haven't even defined the imaginary god you've constructed in your head.
That statement is still meaningless, even after all these posts. It requires the brain to internally construct its god ─ resulting in an entity that doesn't intersect with reality at all.

You sorely need that objective test for truth.

You assume God is not real. How would your view change if you were to bump into God? Is that imagination kicking up on you again??

 

[blü 2]

You assume God is not real. How would your view change if you were to bump into God? Is that imagination kicking up on you again??

A real, not-imaginary god? So bump into what real entity, exactly? ─ the point you've avoided being explicit about all the way through this conversation, the point that persuades me you have no idea what real thing you're actually talking about.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Maybe you can explain it too me better.

Sure. I'm doing this in numbers and blu can correct me if she/he likes

1. Objective existence is

a. what you can experience with your senses
b. what you can observe and test
c. all have the same foundation (i.e. the earth turns) but draw different conclusions based on their experiences (it's morning on one part of the globe and night on the other side)

God is not objective: we cannot see it. We cannot feel it (textile). We cannot hear it. We cannot observe it. Some say god is consciousness. Some say its the holy spirit. Some refer to the moon and stars as god. Some say god is a human and others say he cannot be described. Not all say he is a creator.

d. God has no observable foundation. Therefore, it is not objective.

e. Because god is not objective, not sensory, and can't be observed Blu's point is it is a concept-it's in your head, and her view its all imagination.

Unless you can literally and specifically describe god that a. is observable b. testable and c. common foundation that's not based on your belief (a bias) but something everyone can draw conclusions from, god (in her point) is only in your head.

--

1. Since you don't believe god exists independently and external to the world (105), it is not objective. Therefore, god is in your head (per blue's point). It's a concept and imaginary.

aka. I'm thinking Blue is getting at is god is fake; fiction

2. Here's blu's point: "god does not exist as a separate entity, like a human being can be understood, but god can be thought of in a way as a device in the mind using dualist concepts and mental device to approach nondual." This is all in the brain... an imaginary concept. (105)

You basically proved her point.

3. You're speaking of god as if its a person "his system" and saying "god has nothing to do with it" (111) Therefore, your above explanation you've invalidated. Back to the drawing board.

4. Imaginary concepts aren't systems and they can't do, own, and be anything outside of one's mind. They don't exist outside one's mind.

Unless you're personifying an imaginary concept of god, either he is objective (something you can talk about-he does/says/is/and all of that) or he is in your mind or imagination which has no barring on anything outside of yourself and your biases.

5. How did god point out to you something if you said he was not an entity (129). Is he a person or not?

Basically, you're going back and forth. Can god be "thought of in a way as a device in the mind using dualist concepts and mental device to approach nondual" or is he objective to where he can "point out to you that mainkind has such a narrow view.".... if god is not an entity and just a concept, how can he do anything? (Unless in your dreams?)

I think Blu is trying to figure out why you keep referring to god in an objective sense when, in my observation, you also said he was not objective but a dualistic concept of some sort that is in the mind.

6. What exactly is god that can do things and point to things for you?

If you can describe god in a manner all people can understand what you say then the conversation would be better. If you use vague words to describe god, it sounds like nothing more than an interpretation and thus from your mind not a reality and not real.

That's what I got from both of yous interesting conversation.

Gotta skate now.

 

[Bird123]

A real, not-imaginary god? So bump into what real entity, exactly? ─ the point you've avoided being explicit about all the way through this conversation, the point that persuades me you have no idea what real thing you're actually talking about.

Bump into God, of course. If you are confused by where I have been pointing and in everything I have been saying to you, there is much for you to Discover and learn for yourself. Without a certain amount of knowledge, you would only be confused if God chose to visit. In reality, what would be the purpose?

Understand first. Visit second. No one is going to Discover it for you. No one is going to take your journey for you.

God is not what you search for or this is so far over your head you have no clue.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

Sure. I'm doing this in numbers and blu can correct me if she/he likes

1. Objective existence is

a. what you can experience with your senses
b. what you can observe and test
c. all have the same foundation (i.e. the earth turns) but draw different conclusions based on their experiences (it's morning on one part of the globe and night on the other side)

God is not objective: we cannot see it. We cannot feel it (textile). We cannot hear it. We cannot observe it. Some say god is consciousness. Some say its the holy spirit. Some refer to the moon and stars as god. Some say god is a human and others say he cannot be described. Not all say he is a creator.

d. God has no observable foundation. Therefore, it is not objective.

e. Because god is not objective, not sensory, and can't be observed Blu's point is it is a concept-it's in your head, and her view its all imagination.

Unless you can literally and specifically describe god that a. is observable b. testable and c. common foundation that's not based on your belief (a bias) but something everyone can draw conclusions from, god (in her point) is only in your head.

--

1. Since you don't believe god exists independently and external to the world (105), it is not objective. Therefore, god is in your head (per blue's point). It's a concept and imaginary.

aka. I'm thinking Blue is getting at is god is fake; fiction

2. Here's blu's point: "god does not exist as a separate entity, like a human being can be understood, but god can be thought of in a way as a device in the mind using dualist concepts and mental device to approach nondual." This is all in the brain... an imaginary concept. (105)

You basically proved her point.

3. You're speaking of god as if its a person "his system" and saying "god has nothing to do with it" (111) Therefore, your above explanation you've invalidated. Back to the drawing board.

4. Imaginary concepts aren't systems and they can't do, own, and be anything outside of one's mind. They don't exist outside one's mind.

Unless you're personifying an imaginary concept of god, either he is objective (something you can talk about-he does/says/is/and all of that) or he is in your mind or imagination which has no barring on anything outside of yourself and your biases.

5. How did god point out to you something if you said he was not an entity (129). Is he a person or not?

Basically, you're going back and forth. Can god be "thought of in a way as a device in the mind using dualist concepts and mental device to approach nondual" or is he objective to where he can "point out to you that mainkind has such a narrow view.".... if god is not an entity and just a concept, how can he do anything? (Unless in your dreams?)

I think Blu is trying to figure out why you keep referring to god in an objective sense when, in my observation, you also said he was not objective but a dualistic concept of some sort that is in the mind.

6. What exactly is god that can do things and point to things for you?

If you can describe god in a manner all people can understand what you say then the conversation would be better. If you use vague words to describe god, it sounds like nothing more than an interpretation and thus from your mind not a reality and not real.

That's what I got from both of yous interesting conversation.

Gotta skate now.

Thanks for the view. It helps.

We are all Spiritual beings in our true natures, Consciousness if you will. We are not these physical bodies even though people choose to think so because of all the sensory input this physical world supplies.

The physical body is the interface with this physical world,( our transportation or cars) but it is not us.

God is a Spiritual Being as well, A Consciousness of His own.

This physical world exists for only one purpose. It's time-based causal nature if perfect for learning. We are place within physical bodies simply because it traps us within the physical laws of this universe.

Consciousness can not be defined within the physical laws of the universe because it's not part of it. If one insists that it must, isn't one's view in a box, not seeing the entire reality as it is??

Actions define who one is. You can Discover about a person by understanding their actions and choices. This is what I have done when I searched for answers about God. In this time-based causal universe, God's actions can be seen. Understand them and one learns what God is all about. Further, God's actions can not be altered as all those holy books written by mankind. It is the way to God.

One can choose to place labels and names trying to define reality as one deems fit, however none of that matters. What matters is what is. God is Big on what is. Names and labels will not be needed.

I hope this helps to bring Understanding. Concepts and Beliefs merely point the direction one can search to Discover the Truth rather than calling them truth and failing to continue moving forward.

It's the Journey.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

How do you explain this without the spiritual jargon?

Thanks for the view. It helps.

We are all Spiritual beings in our true natures, Consciousness if you will. We are not these physical bodies even though people choose to think so because of all the sensory input this physical world supplies.

1. For example, we are all spiritual beings in our true nature - what does this mean to someone who doesn't understand these terms?

They are vague: what do you personally mean by spiritual? There are different definitions of consciousness in reference to religious thought-eastern? western? scientific? independent? .. ? ..

2. How can you explain that you are someone different apart from your brain and and mind?

The physical body is the interface with this physical world,( our transportation or cars) but it is not us.

God is a Spiritual Being as well, A Consciousness of His own.

3. You've made it even more complicated. So, consciousness is a person? (But I thought you said to Blu god was not an entity?)

This physical world exists for only one purpose. It's time-based causal nature if perfect for learning. We are place within physical bodies simply because it traps us within the physical laws of this universe.

4. This is a belief expressed as a fact. Can you break it down so anyone who reads this can say "I understand 'and' I disagree"?

What you're saying is very vague. To make points, it's helpful to be more specific since not many people will take you for your directions if you just put "it's right there; it's very clear!" It needs to be more distinct than that.

Consciousness can not be defined within the physical laws of the universe because it's not part of it. If one insists that it must, isn't one's view in a box, not seeing the entire reality as it is??

5. Spiritual jargon. I actually don't know what you're saying, to tell you honestly.

Actions define who one is. You can Discover about a person by understanding their actions and choices. This is what I have done when I searched for answers about God. In this time-based causal universe, God's actions can be seen. Understand them and one learns what God is all about. Further, God's actions can not be altered as all those holy books written by mankind. It is the way to God.

6. But the actions we can discover are those of the physical body not the spiritual one, no?

7. You're mixing up the physical and spiritual body to make a point. I'm sure discovering the spiritual body has different criteria and dynamics than discovering the physical one, right?

One can choose to place labels and names trying to define reality as one deems fit, however none of that matters. What matters is what is. God is Big on what is. Names and labels will not be needed.

8. More jargon. Caps on Big does not explain what consciousness, spiritual, beings, god, and so forth mean. If labels were not needed, how could you convey what god is nonetheless have a conversation about it?

I hope this helps to bring Understanding. Concepts and Beliefs merely point the direction one can search to Discover the Truth rather than calling them truth and failing to continue moving forward.

9. It doesn't because the words are vague (Big? Truth? Discover?), jargon (consciousness, beings, god), and quite confusing (you can discover the spiritual world just as the physical world but the spiritual and physical world are separate since we are not physical, we're spiritual.)

Can you explain all this in clear straightforward language (as if you're translating a foreign language)?

 

[blü 2]

Bump into God, of course. If you are confused by where I have been pointing and in everything I have been saying to you, there is much for you to Discover and learn for yourself.

Blah blah blah, anything but address the question, what is a real God?

Without a certain amount of knowledge, you would only be confused if God chose to visit. In reality, what would be the purpose?

You STILL have no idea what real thing you intend to denote when you say "God". You STILL don't know what you're talking about.

All you're doing is pointing to imaginary gods, gods one constructs in one's own head.

You need to hone your understanding of what you mean by "truth" and by "real".

Feel free to re-open the conversation when you have a description of a real god such that if we find a real suspect we can determine whether it's God or not. Otherwise, don't bother ─ this is just repetitious and boring.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Thanks for the view. It helps.

We are all Spiritual beings in our true natures, Consciousness if you will. We are not these physical bodies even though people choose to think so because of all the sensory input this physical world supplies.

The physical body is the interface with this physical world,( our transportation or cars) but it is not us.

God is a Spiritual Being as well, A Consciousness of His own.

This physical world exists for only one purpose. It's time-based causal nature if perfect for learning. We are place within physical bodies simply because it traps us within the physical laws of this universe.

Consciousness can not be defined within the physical laws of the universe because it's not part of it. If one insists that it must, isn't one's view in a box, not seeing the entire reality as it is??

Actions define who one is. You can Discover about a person by understanding their actions and choices. This is what I have done when I searched for answers about God. In this time-based causal universe, God's actions can be seen. Understand them and one learns what God is all about. Further, God's actions can not be altered as all those holy books written by mankind. It is the way to God.

One can choose to place labels and names trying to define reality as one deems fit, however none of that matters. What matters is what is. God is Big on what is. Names and labels will not be needed.

I hope this helps to bring Understanding. Concepts and Beliefs merely point the direction one can search to Discover the Truth rather than calling them truth and failing to continue moving forward.

It's the Journey.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Bird. Just a straightforward question for you:

If I never heard of the word god, (consciousness, entity, being, spirit, Big, Truth, and One), what would be a clear, concrete, descriptor of the term god

that I am able to discern in my head you are talking about a real existing thing or a concept in your head?

 

[halbhh]

Why does it seems like God or Gods hide from disbelievers but atleast in some way are recognised by or shown to believers?

Any thoughts?

We have at least part of His answer to precisely that:


6 For though the LORD is high, he regards the lowly,
but the haughty he knows from afar.

34 Toward the scorners he is scornful,
but to the humble he gives favor.

23 One’s pride will bring him low,
but he who is lowly in spirit will obtain honor.

12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

52 he has brought down the mighty from their thrones
and exalted those of humble estate;

6 ... “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”

Psalm 138:6; Proverbs 3:34; Proverbs 29:23; Matthew 23:12; Luke 1:52; James 4:6; 1 Peter 5:5

Only those that are humble in heart seem to have any chance at all (as we learn further from Christ also; Matthew chapter 18)

 

[Bird123]

How do you explain this without the spiritual jargon?



1. For example, we are all spiritual beings in our true nature - what does this mean to someone who doesn't understand these terms?

They are vague: what do you personally mean by spiritual? There are different definitions of consciousness in reference to religious thought-eastern? western? scientific? independent? .. ? ..

2. How can you explain that you are someone different apart from your brain and and mind?



3. You've made it even more complicated. So, consciousness is a person? (But I thought you said to Blu god was not an entity?)



4. This is a belief expressed as a fact. Can you break it down so anyone who reads this can say "I understand 'and' I disagree"?

What you're saying is very vague. To make points, it's helpful to be more specific since not many people will take you for your directions if you just put "it's right there; it's very clear!" It needs to be more distinct than that.



5. Spiritual jargon. I actually don't know what you're saying, to tell you honestly.



6. But the actions we can discover are those of the physical body not the spiritual one, no?

7. You're mixing up the physical and spiritual body to make a point. I'm sure discovering the spiritual body has different criteria and dynamics than discovering the physical one, right?



8. More jargon. Caps on Big does not explain what consciousness, spiritual, beings, god, and so forth mean. If labels were not needed, how could you convey what god is nonetheless have a conversation about it?



9. It doesn't because the words are vague (Big? Truth? Discover?), jargon (consciousness, beings, god), and quite confusing (you can discover the spiritual world just as the physical world but the spiritual and physical world are separate since we are not physical, we're spiritual.)

Can you explain all this in clear straightforward language (as if you're translating a foreign language)?

I see your point. On the other hand, I am not here to get anyone to Believe. I am not here to supply all the answers.

Wisdom is acquired on the journey to Discover those answers. This is why God doesn't just give everyone the knowledge. ( This is a Action of God)

God places knowledge all around. How long did mankind watch birds fly before they figured out how?

I merely copy God. I place Truth and Knowledge in the world. I point the direction by which one can acquire that knowledge. The rest is up to those that seek the knowledge.

God is actually Someone. Though God is in all religions to a certain extent, I have found no religion that really understands God and yet the knowledge stares us all in the face. God hides nothing. Are people's view narrow??

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

Blah blah blah, anything but address the question, what is a real God?
You STILL have no idea what real thing you intend to denote when you say "God". You STILL don't know what you're talking about.

All you're doing is pointing to imaginary gods, gods one constructs in one's own head.

You need to hone your understanding of what you mean by "truth" and by "real".

Feel free to re-open the conversation when you have a description of a real god such that if we find a real suspect we can determine whether it's God or not. Otherwise, don't bother ─ this is just repetitious and boring.

What is God is up to you to Discover for yourself. I point where to look. The rest is up to you. Your journey has always been up to you.

That's what I see. It's very clear.