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Why do humans allow suffering?

Gallowglass

Member
Suffering is a direct result of sinful behavior, it always has been and it always will be.

God must inflict punishment on sinners, because He can't be a just God and allow sin to go unpunished. It's like asking a judge to forgive murder, it actually a ridiculous thing to say.

So, if we take the Christian view of Original Sin
God tells Adam not to eat of the fruit.
Adam later tells Eve and actively lies to her and/or changes the warning.
Eve eats the fruit and gives some to Adam.
Now, because they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, they feel shame that they are naked.

So...how could they know it was wrong to eat the fruit? How could they know it was evil to disobey? They had no knowledge of good or evil. How were they to know it was bad? Since Eden was supposed to be perfect, how could they even have a concept of wrong or bad?
 

Danny1988

Member
So, if we take the Christian view of Original Sin
God tells Adam not to eat of the fruit.
Adam later tells Eve and actively lies to her and/or changes the warning.
Eve eats the fruit and gives some to Adam.
Now, because they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, they feel shame that they are naked.

So...how could they know it was wrong to eat the fruit? How could they know it was evil to disobey? They had no knowledge of good or evil. How were they to know it was bad? Since Eden was supposed to be perfect, how could they even have a concept of wrong or bad?
They were commanded not to eat of that tree, but Satan deceived Eve first to eat. He outsmarted her by saying that they would not die and that God is holding back a blessing from them. so He managed to deceive Eve and she convinced Adam that it was good so he was deceived by her
 

Gallowglass

Member
They were commanded not to eat of that tree, but Satan deceived Eve first to eat. He outsmarted her by saying that they would not die and that God is holding back a blessing from them. so He managed to deceive Eve and she convinced Adam that it was good so he was deceived by her
But she didn't know it was wrong, and God never told her, just Adam. She had no concept of evil or good.
 

Danny1988

Member
But she didn't know it was wrong, and God never told her, just Adam. She had no concept of evil or good.
Of' course Adam told her what God commanded so she knew about Gods warning. She even told Satan that God forebode them to eat of that tree, she said that they would die if they ate of it and Satan lied and said that they would not die and that God knows that they would become as gods if they ate, so He was very clever and He knew exactly how to deceive her.

In any case God knew they would be deceived, so He had a plan to redeem them before they even sinned. God is sovereign over all things, He knows the beginning from the end. He chose to save a certain number of people, before He created the world. They are described as the elect of God in the Bible.

So it's all good, everything is in Gods hands. He has full control so the believers can rest assured that they have eternal life in paradise.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Suffering is a direct result of sinful behavior, it always has been and it always will be.

God must inflict punishment on sinners, because He can't be a just God and allow sin to go unpunished. It's like asking a judge to forgive murder, it actually a ridiculous thing to say.

What about suffering that is not a direct result of sinful behavior ?
Like a baby suffering from urinary tract infection.

Are you going to blame Adam and Eve ?
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Danny1988 said:
You forgot to look at the elephant in the room, the only reason the world has so many bad things happening is because man sinned against God and cut himself off from His blessings.

The Bible says that the whole of creation groans in agony waiting for the Lord to return and destroy the works of the wicked.

Everything will be perfect soon, God will destroy this world and everything in it and create a brand new world where everything will be absolutely perfect in every way.

So we can thank sin for bringing so much suffering into the world.

So if a little girl cries out for help it’s because of her sin the girl is raped and therefore deserves no help?
I think you are putting words into Danny's mouth. He never implied that people who suffer deserve no help. They can get it today by believing in God's goodness. They will not need it in the future because there will be no pain or suffering.

Rev 21:1-4,

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.​

That is the hope of all Christians. What's so bad about that? It all sounds like something to look forward to. Do you have a better solution?

God gave man free will. Sadly, man all too often misuses that free will and creates problems. God does the best he can to tell us how to act (vie the Bible) so as to minimize those problems, but He won't force us to do anything because true love never forces anything. People (Christian and non-Christian alike) create problems, not God.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
What about suffering that is not a direct result of sinful behavior ?
Like a baby suffering from urinary tract infection.

Are you going to blame Adam and Eve ?
Well, here's what the Bible says on the matter.

Gen 1:31,

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
The Bible was not written last year in New York or L.A. It was written thousands of years ago in a culture vastly different than ours. We need to understand what popped in the mind of the ancient Hebrew to get an accurate understanding. The word good is the Hebrew word tov. The Hebrews didn't think of that word as meaning a moral goodness. It simple meant that everything worked right, that it was functional, that it worked the way it was designed to work. When your car starts up and gets you to work it would be considered tov. The Hebrew word ra is usually translated as Evil. Again ra, isn't used in a moral sense, but it means something that does not work as designed, that it is dysfunctional. If your car didn't start it would be ra, or evil.

According to Genesis 1:31 the original creation was good, it functioned as designed to make for a good life, which is God's will for us. Part of God's plan was to give man free will. That's part of love. Forcing people to act a certain is not love. Man could listen to God, do what He says, and all would be fine.

But man decided to go with the Devil. God was very forthright in telling Adam what would happen if he did that, i.e. he would die.

Gen 2:17,

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Along comes the devil and tells Eve something quite different.

Gen 3:4-5,

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall NOT surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.​

By his free will, Adam decided to disregard what God told him and listen to the devil instead. After all, it seemed like Adam and Eve had a shot at becoming gods themselves. Must have been pretty tempting. So what happened then?

Gen 3:17-19,

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.
Just like God had warned them, things took a turn for the worse. It wasn't God's idea to make things so hard. But unfortunately, the very nature of the world was changed. It went from being functional to being dysfunctional. It certainly isn't the baby's fault it has a urinary tract infection. It's just the nature of the beast. A tiger can't change it's stripes, and man can't change the nature of the fallen world we live in.

Suffering is not any one individual's fault. Like I said, it's just the nature of our world. The nature of the world was fine the way God made it. He would have rather that Adam obeyed and kept things the way they were, but Adam had a different idea. Bottom line is that this world is not what God intended.

The good news is that in the future, God will create a whole new world where everything will be peachy for eternity.

Rev 21:1-4,

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.​
 

Danny1988

Member
What about suffering that is not a direct result of sinful behavior ?
Like a baby suffering from urinary tract infection.

Are you going to blame Adam and Eve ?
Every baby is born with the fatal cancer of sin, that's why everybody needs to be born again
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Well, here's what the Bible says on the matter.

Gen 1:31,

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
The Bible was not written last year in New York or L.A. It was written thousands of years ago in a culture vastly different than ours. We need to understand what popped in the mind of the ancient Hebrew to get an accurate understanding. The word good is the Hebrew word tov. The Hebrews didn't think of that word as meaning a moral goodness. It simple meant that everything worked right, that it was functional, that it worked the way it was designed to work. When your car starts up and gets you to work it would be considered tov. The Hebrew word ra is usually translated as Evil. Again ra, isn't used in a moral sense, but it means something that does not work as designed, that it is dysfunctional. If your car didn't start it would be ra, or evil.

According to Genesis 1:31 the original creation was good, it functioned as designed to make for a good life, which is God's will for us. Part of God's plan was to give man free will. That's part of love. Forcing people to act a certain is not love. Man could listen to God, do what He says, and all would be fine.

But man decided to go with the Devil. God was very forthright in telling Adam what would happen if he did that, i.e. he would die.

Gen 2:17,

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Along comes the devil and tells Eve something quite different.

Gen 3:4-5,

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall NOT surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.​

By his free will, Adam decided to disregard what God told him and listen to the devil instead. After all, it seemed like Adam and Eve had a shot at becoming gods themselves. Must have been pretty tempting. So what happened then?

Gen 3:17-19,

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.
Just like God had warned them, things took a turn for the worse. It wasn't God's idea to make things so hard. But unfortunately, the very nature of the world was changed. It went from being functional to being dysfunctional. It certainly isn't the baby's fault it has a urinary tract infection. It's just the nature of the beast. A tiger can't change it's stripes, and man can't change the nature of the fallen world we live in.

Suffering is not any one individual's fault. Like I said, it's just the nature of our world. The nature of the world was fine the way God made it. He would have rather that Adam obeyed and kept things the way they were, but Adam had a different idea. Bottom line is that this world is not what God intended.

The good news is that in the future, God will create a whole new world where everything will be peachy for eternity.

Rev 21:1-4,

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.​

Putting aside the debate of whether Adam and Eve existed, why did their actions have to change the nature of the world ?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
They were commanded not to eat of that tree, but Satan deceived Eve first to eat. He outsmarted her by saying that they would not die and that God is holding back a blessing from them. so He managed to deceive Eve and she convinced Adam that it was good so he was deceived by her
Satan patently Does. Not. Appear in the creation myths in Genesis. The serpent Is. not. Satan. The serpent represents Wisdom.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Putting aside the debate of whether Adam and Eve existed, why did their actions have to change the nature of the world ?
Looking to science (for those who don't like the Bible), one might say every action has a reaction?
 

Danny1988

Member
How is that just ?
Where is justice in that ?
That's just the reality of fallen mankind, our first parents sinned against God and we all inherited corrupt bodies of death. God had to come and rectify the problem by suffering on our behalf, so anyone who rejects the saving medicine only has themselves to blame for the coming punishment
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Sure, but why that reaction in particular had to happen ?
I don't know. What would you have done?

If you want, you can take the Bible as a fairy tail or fantasy, but at least make sure to get the whole story right. God had warned Adam and Eve as to what would happen if they stopped listening to him and started listening to the devil. They chose the latter and, sure enough, everything God said would happen did happen. Would someone be a bad parent if their child put their hand in the flame after having been warned of the consequences by that parent?

People seem to forget that the devil has a role in this life. He's the one who causes the problems, not God. God tells us, via the Bible, how to live a good life, but if someone doesn't want to listen He won't force them. Free will allows us to make up our own minds.

Take care...
 

MonkeyFire

Well-Known Member
Suffering is a direct result of sinful behavior, it always has been and it always will be.

Suffering itself is inoscent, unless it's a liar.

God must inflict punishment on sinners, because He can't be a just God and allow sin to go unpunished. It's like asking a judge to forgive murder, it actually a ridiculous thing to say.

No sinners must suffer, God can be passive though.
 

Danny1988

Member
Suffering itself is inoscent, unless it's a liar.



No sinners must suffer, God can be passive though.
You want God to just forgive sin because you love your sins so you wish that God could somehow stop being Holy and righteous and wink at sin. If He did that He would cease to be God. good and Holy God must punish sin severally and he does, so His integrity remains intact
 
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