Why do many Christians claim the Spirit of God is a Holy ‘Ghost’?

[Oeste]

God is a Spirit and angels are spirits.

We only need substitute your definition for Spirit to see what this means:

God is a impersonal "It" and angels are impersonal "its".

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True the word 'person' does Not appear but God and angels are spirit persons​

God IS the Spirit:

Now Jehovah is the Spirit, and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom (2Cor 3:17 NWT)​

Your definition of "Spirit" strips God of all personality, a necessary step if one is to adhere to WT theology. I can understand the need to attach the word "person" afterwards.

Please see Hebrews 9:24 because Jesus appears in the presence of God, and God has a home location 1st Kings 8:39​

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The "home location" for God was once thought by the Watchtower to be in the Pleiades star system:​

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The constellation of the Pleiades is a small one compared with others which scientific instruments disclose to the wondering eyes of man. But the greatness in size of other stars or planets is small when compared with the Pleiades in importance, because the Pleiades is the place of the eternal throne of God.” Reconciliation page 14. Note "Reconciliation is a Watchtower publication.​

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However, by 1953, the WT considered it unwise to affix God's throne to any particular place, blaming the Pleiades debacle on "private interpretations" that were being offered by "some" in the Organization:​

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Some attribute striking qualities to these constellations or star groups and on the basis of such they then offer private interpretations of Job 38:31, 32 that amaze their hearers. Their views are not always sound from the standpoint of astronomy, and when viewed Scripturally they are completely without foundation...​

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Incidentally, Pleiades can no longer be considered the center of the universe and it would be unwise for us to try to fix God’s throne as being at a particular spot in the universe. Watchtower, Questions From Readers, 11/15/53​

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The end result is that God having a "home location" is now passe.​

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Like God's spirit (Numbers 11:17,25) is an impersonal "it" so is our spirit an "it"

Based on your definition of "spirit", God is an impersonal "it" (John 4:24) , His angels are impersonal its, and we can confidently say that as Christians we all have the very same "impersonal spirit of God"!

What a sad state of affairs if God is without feelings or personality, and how much more wretched are we if our Savior was raised as an impersonal it (spirit) creature.

 

[Kenny]

or rather No lordy. God's spirit is an impersonal powerful force that God used to create the visible realm - Psalm 104:30

Actually, He is very personal.

He comforts, He teaches, He can be grieved, He helps, He directs and so much more. (scriptures upon request)

 

[wellwisher]

The Dictionary definition of a ‘GHOST’ is:

• ‘An apparition of a dead person which is believed to appear or become manifest to the living, typically as a nebulous image.’

How does this definition apply to what is called, ‘The Third Person’ of the trinity?

Take into account that a Ghost is ‘of a DEAD’ person - yet the Spirit of God is a ‘LIFE GIVING’ entity.

Is the term, Holy Ghost, just an example of malicious thinking and teaching, or is it just to be taken as ignorance in innocence thinking and preaching?

The term Holy Ghost, has to do with most people assuming what is real, has to come into the brain through the five senses. This is the philosophy of science and the basis for common human experience. When we dream, the dreamscape appears to create another external reality, even though the processing all comes from the inside.

If I was to explain a dream as being due to neurons firing inside the brain, this becomes too abstract compared to saying a dream scape which is like external ethereal landscape for dreams. Holy Ghost instead of Holy Spirit was used to allow the Spirit to appear as something that is outside people, so they are more likely to accept it; seeing is believing even if via projection.

Jesus and Buddha talk of the inner man, but that is harder for even modern people to grasp, since how would that inner man talk to you? Hearing voices in your head is taboo and will require a straight jacket. It is better if it comes to you in a dream or vision; ghost. A ghost does not mean you are crazy compared to hearing voices in your head.

In classic symbolism, the soul is static, which in modern lingo, is like our memory. The spirit animates the soul. Our memory sits there until triggered by something. The spirit is what triggers your memory, so its output effect is more personal to you. If this output is projected, since it is the union of spirit and soul, it is not pure spirit. This composite state is more like a ghost. The spirit is like the puppet master pulling the specific strings and is not as easy to isolate. It is more like the CPU of a computer and not just the memory per se, but it uses the memory to give itself life, via your soul.

The ghost of loved one who have passed, can appear through the Holy Spirit triggering our fond memories, which also contain deep feeling tags, that can bring us back to the past when everyone was alive. Through that contact sometimes healing occurs; Holy Ghost.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Actually, He is very personal.
He comforts, He teaches, He can be grieved, He helps, He directs and so much more. (scriptures upon request)

In Greek grammar rules as in English a he or a she can still really be a neuter "IT"
For example picture a ship: A ship or even a car can be referred to as a she but they remain a neuter "IT"
God's spirit (Not Spirit ) is an "it" and so is our spirit an "it" - Numbers 11:17,25; Ecclesiastes 12:7 B
Notice in the KJV God's spirit (Psalm 104:30) is in the lower-case "s" and Not as a Spirit Person.
Using the masculine or feminine does Not make an "it" into a person.
Just like calling a car or a ship as a she does Not make the car or ship turn into a person

 

[URAVIP2ME]

We only need substitute your definition for Spirit to see what this means:
God is a impersonal "It" and angels are impersonal "its".
God IS the Spirit:

Now Jehovah is the Spirit, and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom (2Cor 3:17 NWT)​

Your definition of "Spirit" strips God of all personality, .........................................................

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The end result is that God having a "home location" is now passe.​

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Based on your definition of "spirit", God is an impersonal "it" (John 4:24) , His angels are impersonal its, and we can confidently say that as Christians we all have the very same "impersonal spirit of God"!
What a sad state of affairs if God is without feelings or personality, and how much more wretched are we if our Savior was raised as an impersonal it (spirit) creature.

Seems as if you never read 1st John 4:16 because " God IS Love "
God 'has' wisdom, God has 'mercy', but God "IS" love

As Joseph Joubert said, " Those who never retract their opinions love themselves more than they love truth. "
Proverbs 4:18 lets us know that spiritual light grows brighter with the passing of time.

Yes, God has a home location if you read 1st Kings chapter 8
Any wrong expectations never makes the Bible as wrong, but can make the thought as wrong.
Remember what Joseph Joubert said.

Jesus already agreed with 2nd Cor. 3:17 if you read John 4:24 that God is a Spirit....... (Spirit Person)
But God's spirit "it" (Numbers 11:17,25) is Not meaning the Spirit Person God
Isaiah 42:1; 11:2; 61:1 God's spirit was put upon the one who would be Jesus - Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10-12
Our spirit is also a neuter "it" at Ecclesiastes 12:7 B

 

[Kenny]

In Greek grammar rules as in English a he or a she can still really be a neuter "IT"
For example picture a ship: A ship or even a car can be referred to as a she but they remain a neuter "IT"
God's spirit (Not Spirit ) is an "it" and so is our spirit an "it" - Numbers 11:17,25; Ecclesiastes 12:7 B
Notice in the KJV God's spirit (Psalm 104:30) is in the lower-case "s" and Not as a Spirit Person.
Using the masculine or feminine does Not make an "it" into a person.
Just like calling a car or a ship as a she does Not make the car or ship turn into a person

That is so true.

Yet the Hebrew word “helper” which is used for Eve is the same word that is also used for the Holy Spirit.

Regardless of gender, Holy Spirit remains a person who teaches, guides, reveals, can be grieved and so much more. So much more than just “a power”.

 

[Oeste]

Using the masculine or feminine does Not make an "it" into a person.
Just like calling a car or a ship as a she does Not make the car or ship turn into a person

You can be remarkably inconsistent URAVIP2ME.

For the same reason, calling a spirit "it" does not make "it" less a person. Yet that is exactly what you've been telling us. You find a scripture where the term spirit was referred to as "it", and conclude that spirit must be impersonal or neuter.

That is a grammatical fallacy, and surely ignores other scripture which says otherwise

When's the last time you heard an "impersonal force" become grieved? Vexed? Speak? When was the last time you blasphemed an "impersonal force"? Is your electricity offended when you're late paying the utility bill?

 

[Oeste]

Seems as if you never read 1st John 4:16 because " God IS Love "
God 'has' wisdom, God has 'mercy', but God "IS" love

How does this help your argument???

YOU tell us God's Spirit, as well as our own spirit is "impersonal" because spirit was described as an "it" in scripture.

Like God's spirit (Numbers 11:17,25) is an impersonal "it" so is our spirit an "it" - see Ecclesiastes 12:7

Seems as if you never read 1 Corinthians 13 4-7:

Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. ...​

So there you go. Love is is referred to as an "it". Therefore, for the exact same reason you describe God's Spirit as a neutered, impersonal "it", I am sure you describe God's Love as a neutered, impersonal "it" for the exact same reasons you gave us earlier.

 

[blü 2]

Thanks, Oeste. The Trinitarians can always rely on your input when it find themselves at a loss as to how to devise a solution to a fallacy they believe.

The inane response from you just proved my point.

I have CONSISTENTLY directed my posts responses to the thread question which addresses the Scriptures and the SPIRIT OF GOD.

My point was that the word, ‘Ghost’ CAN NEVER apply to the Spirit of God, and therefore there can never ever be such a thing as a ‘Holy GHOST’,

A ‘Ghost’ is defined as a ‘The SPIRIT… of… a dead person ….. [roaming the living world in hauntings and causing havoc]’.

The debate was certainly not about any diverse definition of ‘Ghost’ not in keeping with the point and purpose of the thread topic….

Stay on topic, Oeste.

In #217 above I pointed out to you that there are a variety of meanings of 'ghost' as we go back through the English language, and it's not correct to say that the Spirit of God has never been called the (Holy) Ghost.

And that its appearance as standard in the Anglican Book of Common Prayer has kept the usage alive to this day. The phrase "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" is familiar to me from my early days in Pisco church. (Here that's an etymological observation, not a religious one, btw.)

 

[Aupmanyav]

"Why do many Christians claim the Spirit of God is a Holy 'Ghost'?"
They have to explain Mary's pregnancy before marriage (It was God's doing, therefore, Jesus is the Son of God).

 

[Oeste]

As Joseph Joubert said, " Those who never retract their opinions love themselves more than they love truth. "

That is is very correct URAVIP2ME!

But the Watchtower never retracted their prior opinion that God lived in the constellation Pleiades. They simply changed it. They didn't "pull back" from their original position, they abandoned it, and then blamed their flock, not themselves, for having the audacity to believe what they told them was food from God.

That's like a shepherd leading his flock to Astro-turf, and then chastising the sheep when they get sick.

Proverbs 4:18 lets us know that spiritual light grows brighter with the passing of time.

So this idea that God lived in the constellation Pleiades got "brighter with the passing of time"??

Can you explain to our readers how this works in an Organization that claims to "feed proper food at the proper time"?

 

[Oeste]

Yes, God has a home location if you read 1st Kings chapter 8

1Kings 8:27 “But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!

Any wrong expectations never makes the Bible as wrong, but can make the thought as wrong.

Yes, and the WT was wrong about Pleiades as is your notion that this idea got "brighter over time" is also wrong.

Remember what Joseph Joubert said.

You likewise, @URAVIP2ME.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That is so true.
Yet the Hebrew word “helper” which is used for Eve is the same word that is also used for the Holy Spirit.
Regardless of gender, Holy Spirit remains a person who teaches, guides, reveals, can be grieved and so much more. So much more than just “a power”.

How true that Eve would be a helper for Adam
I was just working with a screwdriver and it sure was a helper to me, but not a person.
I see in the TANACH at Psalm 104:30 says ' breath' instead of 'spirit ' ( also No captial "S" for God's spirit JKV Psalm 104:30 )
Any thoughts about Psalm 33:6 _____________

 

[URAVIP2ME]

1Kings 8:27 “But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!

Thanks for reading 1st Kings 8, but why stop at verse 27
The heavens or heaven includes our immediate heavens, mid-heavens where birds fly, and outer space as also heavens.
Any thoughts about Isaiah 57:15 ______________
If we continue reading at 1st Kings 8:30 we find that heaven is God's dwelling place ( not our physical heavens of sky and outer space )
Where does God hear from but from in heaven - 1st Kings 8:32
" hear thou in heaven" - 1st Kings 8:34,36
I find verse 39 lets us know heaven is God's dwelling place
Where God hears prayers - 1st Kings 8:49
Who looks from heaven - Psalm 33:13 ____________

 

[Oeste]

Thanks for reading 1st Kings 8, but why stop at verse 27
The heavens or heaven includes our immediate heavens, mid-heavens where birds fly, and outer space as also heavens.

That’s correct, and as verse 27 makes clear none of this can contain Him. So how do you rationalize your position? Is part of God dwelling in the Heavens, with His overflow, the part that cannot contain Him, dwelling somewhere else?

Any thoughts about Isaiah 57:15 ______________

Yes, plenty of thoughts, but you are ‘proof texting’ again, jumping around from text to text, cherry picking text to "prove" a doctoral point, ignoring any text that might refute it.

I was hoping you would explain to readers how the WT’s notion that God’s home was in the star cluster Pleiades became “brighter and brighter” over time.

I am confident you or someone in your organization can answer this.

Where does God hear from but from in heaven - 1st Kings 8:32

More proof-texting?? Do you really, honestly, truly believe this verse tell us that God must be in heaven to hear?

God made the universe. There is nowhere that God is not, and there is nothing that He does not hear.

I find verse 39 lets us know heaven is God's dwelling place

You are defining God spatially rather the spiritually, a common interpretive error which can be demonstrated with a question:

If God dwells in heaven, and the heavens cannot contain God, where does the rest of God not contained by heaven go?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

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If God dwells in heaven, and the heavens cannot contain God, where does the rest of God not contained by heaven go?

Point is: There is the immediate heavens above us such as the atmospheric mid-heavens where birds and planes fly
There is also the heavens of outer space, but that is Not God's home - 1st Kings 8:39, 43, 49, 30, 34, 36
So, it is as Deuteronomy 10:14 says the heavens and the heavens of heavens (Highest Heavens is God's home ) ........ Nehemiah 9:6
I realize you don't agree, but perhaps someone else might understand that in Scripture 'heaven' has more than one meaning

 

[Kenny]

How true that Eve would be a helper for Adam
I was just working with a screwdriver and it sure was a helper to me, but not a person.
I see in the TANACH at Psalm 104:30 says ' breath' instead of 'spirit ' ( also No captial "S" for God's spirit JKV Psalm 104:30 )
Any thoughts about Psalm 33:6 _____________

there is no capital letters in the Greek or Hebrew.

If you think the Holy Spirit of the Living God is a screwdriver… well, I would say “God help you”.

The Holy Spirit teaches, grieves and speaks… so I’m not sure where you get “it” from that.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The Holy Spirit teaches, grieves and speaks… so I’m not sure where you get “it” from that.

Since there are No capital letters then why the H & S in holy spirit
Is God sending forth a person at Psalm 104:30
God is Not sending forth a person at Numbers 11:17,25 (it)
God is Not 'pouring out' a person at Acts 2:17-18 from Joel 2:28 is He
Any thoughts about Ezekiel 39:29 and Isaiah 44:3 _______________

 

[Kenny]

Since there are No capital letters then why the H & S in holy spirit
Is God sending forth a person at Psalm 104:30
God is Not sending forth a person at Numbers 11:17,25 (it)
God is Not 'pouring out' a person at Acts 2:17-18 from Joel 2:28 is He
Any thoughts about Ezekiel 39:29 and Isaiah 44:3 _______________

Because the translators into English did it to help the reader at their discretion.

 

[Oeste]

Point is: There is the immediate heavens above us such as the atmospheric mid-heavens where birds and planes fly
There is also the heavens of outer space, but that is Not God's home - 1st Kings 8:39, 43, 49, 30, 34, 36

Agreed!

See? Not so hard.

So, it is as Deuteronomy 10:14 says the heavens and the heavens of heavens (Highest Heavens is God's home ) ........ Nehemiah 9:6

Neither Deuteronomy 10:14 or Nehemiah 9:6 tells us that the Highest Heavens is God's home.

I realize you don't agree, but perhaps someone else might understand that in Scripture 'heaven' has more than one meaning

Our disagreement is not whether 'heaven' has more than one meaning. Our disagreement is on whether God can be measured or contained.

So yes, we do disagree on a lot of issues, but it was nice talking with you, I appreciate your attempted answers, and I look forward to our next discussion.