Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Interesting, my mother was Greek and was raised in the Greek Orthodox church, but she dropped out of Christianity before I was born so I never went to church and I never knew anything about Christian beliefs.
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Why do people leave Christianity?
- Thread starter filthyrottendirty
- Start date
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
If it's not a fact, then it's opinion and that means it isn't evidence of any kind.
Yes, it is reality, in just the same way that science can't prove the existence of Hogwarts, or Middle Earth, or any other fantasy.
Are you suggesting that whether they tell the truth or not has nothing to do with their nature?
If it is locked in, then we have no free choice.
If it is NOT locked in, then it's not fate, is it?
If it's not locked in, then it's not fate.
For what we are discussing, it makes no difference what the cause is.
And once again - if it does not happen, it was never fated in the first place.
If it can be altered, then it's not fate.
So God would only try to help me if I was already going to do it anyway? That's a silly way of doing things. If you want people to do things the way you want them to do it, you put your effort into trying to convince the people who are leaning AWAY from what you want. That's why politicians work extra hard to get the swing voters. There's no sense in trying to convince people of an idea when they're already sold on that idea.
By that logic, every single thing that could possibly happen is a would-be fate. If your viewpoint has to incorporate EVERYTHING in order to be valid, then it's a pretty weak viewpoint.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Facts are not the only kind of evidence.
15 Types of Evidence and How to Use Them
Evidence comes in many forms, and even if it’s not admissible in court it can still be relevant to a case and provide valuable insight during an investigation
Posted by Dawn Lomer on April 6th, 2016
1. Analogical Evidence
While not a kind of evidence you’d use in court, this kind of evidence can be useful for increasing credibility by drawing parallels when there isn’t enough information to prove something in a workplace investigation. Analogical evidence uses a comparison of things that are similar to draw an analogy.
2. Anecdotal Evidence
Anecdotal evidence isn’t used in court, but can sometimes help in a workplace investigation to get a better picture of an issue. The biggest problem with this kind of evidence is that it is often “cherry picked” to present only anecdotes that support a particular conclusion. Consider it with skepticism, and in combination with other, more reliable, kinds of evidence.
3. Character Evidence
This is a testimony or document that is used to help prove that someone acted in a particular way based on the person’s character. While this can’t be used to prove that a person’s behavior at a certain time was consistent with his or her character, it can be used in some workplace investigations to prove intent, motive, or opportunity.
4. Circumstantial Evidence
Also known as indirect evidence, this type of evidence is used to infer something based on a series of facts separate from the fact the argument is trying to prove. It requires a deduction of facts from other facts that can be proven and, while not considered to be strong evidence, it can be relevant in a workplace investigation, which has a different burden of proof than a criminal investigation.
5. Demonstrative Evidence
An object or document is considered to be demonstrative evidence when it directly demonstrates a fact. It’s a common and reliable kind of evidence. Examples of this kind of evidence are photographs, video and audio recordings, charts, etc. In a workplace investigation, this could be an audio recording of someone’s harassing behavior or a photograph of offensive graffiti.
How to Record Digital Evidence with Camtasia Screencasting Software
6. Digital Evidence
Digital evidence can be any sort of digital file from an electronic source. This includes email, text messages, instant messages, files and documents extracted from hard drives, electronic financial transactions, audio files, video files. Digital evidence can be found on any server or device that stores data, including some lesser-known sources such as home video game consoles, GPS sport watches and internet-enabled devices used in home automation. Digital evidence is often found through internet searches using open source intelligence (OSINT).
7. Direct Evidence
The most powerful type of evidence, direct evidence requires no inference. The evidence alone is the proof. This could be the testimony of a witness who saw first-hand an incident of sexual harassment in the workplace.
8. Documentary Evidence
Most commonly considered to be written forms of proof, such as letters or wills, documentary evidence can also include other types of media, such as images, video or audio recordings, etc.
9. Exculpatory Evidence
This type of evidence can exonerate a defendant in a – usually criminal – case. Prosecutors and police are required to disclose to the defendant any exculpatory evidence they find or risk having the case dismissed.
10. Forensic Evidence
Forensic Evidence is scientific evidence, such as DNA, trace evidence, fingerprints or ballistics reports, and can provide proof to establish a person’s guilt or innocence. Forensic evidence is generally considered to be strong and reliable evidence and alongside helping to convict criminals, its role in exonerating the innocent has been well documented. The term “forensic” means “for the courts”. Its use in workplace investigations is generally limited to serious cases that may end up in court.
11. Hearsay Evidence
Hearsay evidence consists of statements made by witnesses who are not present. While hearsay evidence is not admissible in court, it can be relevant and valuable in a workplace investigation where the burden of proof is less robust than in court.
12. Physical Evidence
As would be expected, evidence that is in the form of a tangible object, such as a firearm, fingerprints, rope purportedly used to strangle someone, or tire casts from a crime scene, is considered to be physical evidence. Physical evidence is also known as “real” or “material” evidence. It can be presented in court as an exhibit of a physical object, captured in still or moving images, described in text, audio or video or referred to in documents.
13. Prima Facie Evidence
Meaning “on its first appearance” this is evidence presented before a trial that is enough to prove something until it is successfully disproved or rebutted at trial. This is also called “presumptive evidence”.
14. Statistical Evidence
Evidence that uses numbers (or statistics) to support a position is called statistical evidence. This type of evidence is based on research or polls.
15. Testimonial Evidence
One of the most common forms of evidence, this is either spoken or written evidence given by a witness under oath. It can be gathered in court, at a deposition or through an affidavit.
15 Types of Evidence and How to Use Them in Investigations
Comparing religion to Hogwarts, or Middle Earth, or any other fantasy is illogical because it is a false equivalence.
False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency.[1] A colloquial expression of false equivalency is "comparing apples and oranges".
Characteristics
This fallacy is committed when one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result.[2] False equivalence is a common result when an anecdotal similarity is pointed out as equal, but the claim of equivalence doesn't bear scrutiny because the similarity is based on oversimplification or ignorance of additional factors. The pattern of the fallacy is often as such: "If A is the set of c and d, and B is the set of d and e, then since they both contain d, A and B are equal". d is not required to exist in both sets; only a passing similarity is required to cause this fallacy to be used.
False equivalence arguments are often used in journalism[3][4] and in politics, where flaws of one politician may be compared to flaws of a wholly different nature of another.[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence
That is what I am saying. Whether they tell the truth or not only has to do with their character and whether they are honest.
I told you there are two kinds of fate, a would-be fate and a locked in fate. The would-be fate is what would have happened if God had not altered that fate. The locked in fate is the fate God never alters, even though He could.
It does matter because unless God caused it, we caused it by making a free will choice to do it. The fact that God knew it would happen did not cause it to happen.
That is true, because whatever happens is in accordance with our fate.
That is false, because an all-powerful God can alter any damn thing He wants to alter whenever ever He wants to alter it. You really need to start thinking outside the box.
The thing is that God does not want people to do things that they do not want to do, and that is why God does not put any effort into trying to convince the people that He already knows will never believe, bearing in mind that God knows everything everyone will do before, during, and after they do it. But if God knows you are considering believing He might help you along.
You are right, everything is a would-be fate, EXCEPT the fate that is locked in, which is the fate that God has decided He will never alter, even though He could alter it, since it is not in our best interest to alter it.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Patently untrue. Most of the former Christians I know (and I’ve known many) have left because of a misunderstanding either about doctrine or about what the Bible is and what it says, or because they’ve been hurt by church members. Most committed and ordained Christian leaders, OTOH, have a deep theological understanding and are biblically educated.
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
They're the only kind that actually matters.
And there's a reason that it's not used in court. It's because it's rubbish. It's basically saying that if your car has a reversing camera, all cars have reversing cameras. Analogies are not evidence.
And again, it's not used in court because it's rubbish. If someone tells you an anecdote, how do you tell if it's real or if they just made the whole thing up? You can't. There's no way to verify the accuracy of it.
Anyone who sees how charming and delightful an abuser is in public would say they are wonderful, while being completely oblivious to the horrible things they do behind closed doors.
It says it right here - it's not considered strong evidence.
This is better, but even then, photographs can lie. I'm a skilled photographer, I can make the camera lie whenever I want.
And it can be altered.
I agree, this is the best kind of evidence.
Still fairly good, but there's the issue of verifying the claims made within.
Wouldn't this include any of the other types of evidence presented here? It seems an attempt at cheating to try to sneak it in as a separate type.
Again, I agree, this evidence is good. Not perfect, of course, because a criminal could intentionally leave samples of false DNA behind to throw off the investigators.
Again, hearsay is rubbish. It's even worse than anecdotal evidence. It not only requires that what the witness says is accurate, but the account of what the witness said is accurate too.
Seems like this would include forensic evidence as well.
Again, this seems like it would include all the other forms of evidence, it's not a separate type of evidence in and of itself.
Can be accurate, but it is also plagued with unreliability. It's also very easily misunderstood.
And how is this any different to either anecdote or hearsay?
Be careful of flinging out accusations of logical fallacies. If I said that Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings were both fantasies because they both contain magic and elves, you could also cry it is false equivalence because Harry Potter is set in a real modern world and Lord of the Rings is set in a fictitious primitive world. And yet they would still both be fantasies.
Then if you agree it is about their nature, why did you say "no" in post 217?
Two kinds of fate? A real fate and an imitation fate? That's funny, please tell me more about how you have to redefine things to prove your point.
So if you fall down the stairs, did God pushing or did you make the decision to throw yourself down the stairs?
So it wasn't fate. Unless it was the imitation fate, in which case it WAS fate, but it wasn't FATE fate.
Do you see how ludicrous your argument is?
Then there's no such thing as REAL fate.
You really don't see the flaw in this line of reasoning?
REALLY?
Okay, let me show you.
Let's say there's a guy, we'll call him John. John was raised completely secular. He's never had a belief in God, but he's open to the idea. Recently, he's been looking at religion, and some of them look pretty good to him.
This is exactly the kind of guy you claim God would help along.
But, as you say, God knows for a fact what decision John is going to make.
If God knows for a fact that John is going to decide that he will become a believer, then John will become a believer, whether God helps or not. So there's no point in God helping.
On the other hand, if God knows for a fact that John is NOT going to become a believer, then God is not going to put any effort into trying to convince him, as per your own argument.
So, in either case, there's absolutely no point in God trying to help people along.
And we get back to the trouble we had earlier.
If something is LOCKED IN FATE, say, today, Bill is going to meet the woman he is going to marry at work, then every single thing that leads to him being in the right place at the right time must also be LOCKED IN FATE. Because if it isn't LOCKED IN, then he could decide to call in sick, stay at home and binge Game of Thrones all day. Now, would you like to tell me how Bill could meet his future wife at work if he's called in sick and is binging TV?
(Also, you claimed that some fate isn't locked in, yet you also said that God knows everything everyone will ever do. You can't have it both ways. If God knows everything everyone will ever do, then everything everyone will ever do is locked in and can't be changed.)
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Blisters
New Member
I honestly think it depends entirely on your environment. Some people grow up around teachers who care, most don't. Religion is just another tradition to them. It brings nothing to their lives, so why search for it? That seems to be the attitude I've come across over the years.
There are of course other reasons, this is by no means meant to dismiss them, just sharing.
There are of course other reasons, this is by no means meant to dismiss them, just sharing.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
To you.
Good analysis, but you sure are picky. There is not always going to be direct evidence and you certainly are never going to have any direct evidence of God. The Messengers had direct evidence but you will have to settle for their testimonial evidence.
7. Direct Evidence
The most powerful type of evidence, direct evidence requires no inference. The evidence alone is the proof. This could be the testimony of a witness who saw first-hand an incident of sexual harassment in the workplace.
15. Testimonial Evidence
One of the most common forms of evidence, this is either spoken or written evidence given by a witness under oath. It can be gathered in court, at a deposition or through an affidavit.
But I would not call that false equivalence because they are both fantasies. By contrast, comparing religion to fantastical things like Hogwarts is false equivalence.
I would have to go back and look at that post.
I do not RE-define them, I define them. There are two kinds of fate, impending and irrevocable. Impending fate can be altered by God if God so chooses, irrevocable fate is never altered by God even though God is capable of altering it..
That was an accident, a misfortune that was fated to happen. That was not a free will choice. Everything that happens in life is not a free will choice:
“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.” Some Answered Questions, p. 248
Our fate is whatever God decides it will be because God determines our fate. Logically speaking, if God can determine our fate God can alter our fate because......God is all-powerful!
You had that right but some minor alterations are in order:
Scenario #1: If God knows for a fact that John is going to decide that he will become a believer if God helps John along, then God will help John along, so there is point in God helping. In other words, God knows that John is on the fence between belief and non belief so God will help John over the fence to belief.
Scenario #2: If God knows for a fact that John is going to decide that he will become a believer without God's help, then John might become a believer without God's help.
Scenario #3: If God knows for a fact that John is NOT going to become a believer, then God is not going to put any effort into trying to convince him.
So in Scenario #1 there is a point in God trying to help people along.
Yes, you got that right. Why do you say it is trouble?
But if Bill's fate was not locked in, this is how it might look:
If Bill's fate is an impending fate, today Bill MIGHT meet the woman he is going to marry at work, but only if everything falls into place; but not every single thing that leads to him being in the right place at the right time does not happen. For example, Bill decides to call in sick, stay at home and binge Game of Thrones all day, so Bill could not meet his future wife at work. In other words, Bill's fate could have been to meet his future wife IF he has gone to work, but he did not go to work so that could not happen.
Yes, I can have it both ways. God knows everything everyone will ever do, but everything everyone will ever do is not locked in because what God knows is not locked in; what God knows will be different according to what we choose to do as we go through life.
I guess you forgot what I told you earlier... God does not exist in time like we do, God knows everything all the time by virtue of His omniscience.
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
Or to anyone else who wants the actual objectively true facts about the universe.
I'm "picky" because I want evidence that can actually be verified.
Without being able to verify a claim, there's no way to tell the difference between a messenger from God and some crazy person who thinks God is the half eaten ham sandwich under his pillow.
They're both fantasies as well.
I would have thought that you could have just done that instead of posting that you were going to do it....
Despite your claims to the contrary, you ARE making up the definitions you want. I've never heard anyone use the word "fate" like you do.
That's not what you said. You said, "unless God caused it, we caused it by making a free will choice to do it."
You specifically state there are only two possible options:
- God causes it.
- We make a choice to do it.
Now you are trying to get out of what you have claimed. Either you don't understand what you are talking about, or you are making it up as you go.
How many times do I need to say it? If it can be altered, it's not fate!
If God knows that John will become a believer, but only with God's help, then it seems that God is FATED to take action to make John a believer. God could not avoid it. Thus God has no free will.
How do you go from "Knows for a fact" to "Might"?
What if God knows that John won't become a believer because God knows he isn't going to help John become a believer?
And you robbed God of his own free will in order to get there.
Because Bill was fated to do something and he got out of it. Like it or not, fate can't be avoided. If we are fated to do things, then EVERYTHING is fated.
And as I've said before, THAT'S NOT FATE.
And if it's LOCKED IN that Bill is going to meet his wife at work today, then everything that leads up to that must be locked in as well. For example, if it was possible that he could have played football the day before where he would break a leg and require a week-long stay in the hospital, then it was LOCKED IN that he wouldn't play the game. And so EVERYTHING that could possible happen must be LOCKED IN as well, because if there's even one thing that is not locked in, then that could ruin all the things that are locked in. And since that can't happen, then there must not be anything at all that is not locked in.
What you are saying makes absolutely no sense.
You might as well say you are going to get married, but also remain single. Or that you are going to be a vegan, but still have a steak on the weekends.
And it seems you haven't been paying attention.
My problem is not that God could exist outside of time and thus be aware of all moments in all of time.
My problem is that if that is the case, we can have no free will at all because God knows 100% for certain every single thing that is ever going to happen down to the smallest detail. Everything that happens will be exactly as he has foreseen it, and nothing can ever be different in even the smallest degree.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
There is no way to verify as a fact that a man is a Messenger of God, but you can verify it in your own mind. Jesus said that you would know a prophet by his fruits. Good fruits might mean a true prophet, but bad fruits always mean false prophets.
Proofs of Prophethood, Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, pp. 8-9
There is more to it than just good fruits because many men have good fruits but that does not make them a prophet.
“I” did not make it up, I read it in the Writings of Baha’u’llah. You have not heard of it before because Baha’is are so few and you never ran into one before.
“Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.
The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.
God grant that thou who art the fruit of My Tree, and they that are associated with thee, may be shielded from its evil consequences.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 133
That was an accident, a misfortune that was fated to happen. That was not a free will choice. Everything that happens in life is not a free will choice:
“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.” Some Answered Questions, p. 248
I am not playing that game of “what I said before” or else that means that I am making it up as I go. I can correct myself as I go along and cone up with new ways to explain things. Some things we do not choose but we are compelled to endure them because they are just part of life in a material world, but that does not mean that God caused them to happen (see passage in blue above).
How many times do I need to say it? If it can be altered, it's an impending fate (see passage above).
If God knows that John will become a believer, but only with God's help, then John is FATED to take action and become a believer (because what God knows is identical with what John will do.) John could not avoid it. John had to use his free will to take the action that God knew he would take.
Good catch, I stated that incorrectly. It should read as follows:
Scenario #2: If God knows for a fact that John is going to decide that he will become a believer without God's help, then John WILL become a believer without God's help.
If God knows for a fact that John is NOT going to CHOOSE to become a believer, then God is not going to put any effort into trying to convince him. God is not going to override John’s choice not to become a believer. Only of John is undecided and might become a believer is God going to influence him.
God is not trying to get anywhere because God already knows that He exists, and God does not want to force people to believe He exists.
I am not going around that block again. Please refer to the passage in red above.
It is a possible fate (an impending fate) that never became an actual fate.
That is true. And if it's LOCKED IN that Bill is going to meet his wife at work today, then everything that leads up to that must be locked in as well.
No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that not all fates are locked in and they are impending fates (what could have been our fate) until they become an actual fates. Before we decide to do something and act the fate is impending unless it is an irrevocable fate, in which case we cannot choose – we have to do what was fated, which is what God knows we will do.
Oh, we are back to this again. It is true that God knows 100% for certain every single thing that is ever going to happen down to the smallest detail. Everything that happens will be exactly as he has foreseen it, and nothing can ever be different in even the smallest degree but that does not mean that what God knows is what CAUSED anything to happen. What God knows is not what causes anything to happen. What happens to us happens (a) because of what we freely chose to do, or (b) because things that were not chosen but happened to us (such as in the case if accidents and injuries and diseases or being raped, etc.)
Please read this carefully:
“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150
Jeremiah Ames
Well-Known Member
why do some people equate leaving a religion with turning your back on God?
i wonder whether the two things are equivalent or diametrically opposite?
just wondering
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
Seems to me this is just a fancy way of saying you can't verify after all.
Then someone else made it up and you just accepted it.
The simple fact remains that if I say that someone is fated to do something, it's taken to mean that the person can't avoid it. It's set in stone, and can't be changed.
Yes you are. If you are correcting yourself, then it is indeed changing your position from the position you previously claimed to have.
How many times do I need to say it? If it can be altered, it's not fated at all!
In which case, God has no choice but to provide that help. You've just robbed God of his free will.
And that's just repeating yourself. It's like saying, If the apple is red, then the apple is red.
That doesn't address the point I was making.
If God knows that John will not become a believer because God isn't going to help him, and yet would become a believer if God does help him, is God going to help or not?
I don't think you understood what I was saying. I was saying that you robbed God of his free will in order to get where YOU were going.
Telling me to read the same unconvincing argument isn't going to make it more convincing.
And there are some things that happen BEFORE Bill meets his wife at work that are NOT locked in, correct?
Now tell me, is it possible that one of those not-locked-in things could change things so Bill is incapable of going to work on that day?
You don't seem to grasp what I am telling you. These not locked in things ARE NOT FATE.
You contradict yourself.
If God knows every single little thing that will ever happen in the universe down to the most minute detail, how can your "impending fate" be a real thing?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
If by verify you mean “prove” no, there is no way to prove it, not to anyone except yourself.
Something is scientifically verifiable if it can be tested and proven to be true. Verifiable comes from the verb verify, "authenticate" or "prove," from the Old French verifier, "find out the truth about." The Latin root is verus, or "true." Definitions of verifiable.
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/verifiable
Baha’u’llah did not make it up, He got it from God…. Why would anyone make up all of that?! What would be His motive? After all, He certainly did not get anything for Himself, He did whatever He did for the sake of God.
“Who can ever believe that this Servant of God hath at any time cherished in His heart a desire for any earthly honor or benefit? The Cause associated with His Name is far above the transitory things of this world. Behold Him, an exile, a victim of tyranny, in this Most Great Prison. His enemies have assailed Him on every side, and will continue to do so till the end of His life. Whatever, therefore, He saith unto you is wholly for the sake of God, that haply the peoples of the earth may cleanse their hearts from the stain of evil desire, may rend its veil asunder, and attain unto the knowledge of the one true God—the most exalted station to which any man can aspire. Their belief or disbelief in My Cause can neither profit nor harm Me. We summon them wholly for the sake of God. He, verily, can afford to dispense with all creatures.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 85
That is what is commonly believed, but new info has been revealed by Baha’u’llah about God and fate.
Keep saying it if you want to, but impending means impending and conditional means conditional. That means it is a fate that might have happened if conditions had been different; so for example if John had made it to work then he would have met his future wife – that was a conditional fate -- but since he did not make it to work that day the fate never became his actual fate.
God does not have free will, God has a will.
God will provide that help because what God does is identical with what God knows He will do. Nobody is forcing God to do anything, but sometimes what God does is according to what a human chooses to do. For example, if a human prays sometimes God will answer that prayer,
If God knows that John will become a believer, but only with God's help, God will provide the help.
No, I changed a word -- from might to will -- and that changed the meaning.
- Incorrect: Scenario #2: If God knows for a fact that John is going to decide that he will become a believer without God's help, then John MIGHT become a believer without God's help.
- Correct: Scenario #2: If God knows for a fact that John is going to decide that he will become a believer without God's help, then John WILL become a believer without God's help.
Do you see why I had to correct that statement?
If God knows for a fact what John is going to do then John WILL do it because what God knows is identical with whatever happens.
Yes, God will help John if he is a sincere seeker and makes an effort…
“Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.””Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 266-267
But it might depend upon which religion John was looking at.
God does not have free will. God just has a will. God wills it and it is a done deal! As soon as God wills it, it is as if it is done.
Yes, and then it will not be Bill-s fate to meet his future wife.
No, they are not an ultimate fate, they are a would-be fate, an impending or a conditional fate.
It would be like if Tom got a gun it would have been his fate to commit a murder but since Tom could not get a gun committing the murder never became Tom’s fate.
Simple, God knew there would be an impending fate would never become an actual fate.
Remember, God knows everything, before during and after it happens in this world.
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
And that leaves it as just an opinion, doesn't it?
Granted, an opinion you can be really really convinced is true, but an opinion nonetheless.
Telling me the origin and meaning of the word does nothing in regards to our discussion.
How do you know he got it from God? Lots of people have claimed to have been told things from God, and most, if not all of them, are people you would consider to be insane.
This is just a very wordy way of saying, "Fraid not!"
You seem intent on ignoring what I am trying to tell you here.
By your logic, anything that could ever happen is this "impending fate" nonsense.
It's impending fate that I'll be the first person on Pluto. It's impending fate that I'll be whisked off by fairies to the magical world of Elnaria to fight the evil wizard Vornax.
Yeah, you're using two different meanings of the word WILL here.
When you say, "God has a will," you are using "will" to mean "Intent."
Then when you say, "God WILL provide that help," you are expressing future tense. They are two completely different things, despite being spelled the same.
You might as well say, "If you jump off the roof you WILL fall to the ground," and then claim it was my will to fall to the ground.
If God knows, then your impending fate idea is meaningless.
Yes, God will help John if he is a sincere seeker and makes an effort…
“Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.””Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 266-267
But it might depend upon which religion John was looking at.
You are contradicting yourself. God already knows that John will NOT become a believer without that help. And you said that if God knows someone will not become a believer, then he will not help them. So, since God knows John will not become a believer without help, God isn't going to provide that help, and thus John won't become a believer.
What you've done here is put yourself into the Barber's Paradox. If you haven't heard of it, it goes like this:
In a small town, the barber shaves everyone who doesn't shave themselves. So who shaves the barber?
Does the barber shave himself? He can't, because the barber only shaves the people who DON'T shave themselves. If the barber shaves himself, he doesn't fall into the category of "people who don't shave themselves," and thus can't be shaved by the barber. But if he doesn't shave himself, then he has to be shaved by the barber, which means he has to shave himself.
Your religion seems to have put you in a similar quandary.
The God is a slave to predestination and he is just a robot.
But meeting his wife is something that is LOCKED IN. You can't avoid that. Not unless you say that nothing is locked in.
And as I've already said, then anything is potential fate, and the term becomes meaningless.
Again, by this logic, anything is potential fate. The term is meaningless.
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
I personally don’t trust a theology that only essentially uses a Cliffs’ Notes version.
PoetPhilosopher
Veteran Member
I left because things got too crazy politically and personally in my life, with the evangelical movement and its followers.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Sorry it took so long to get back to you but I have been buried in Christians all week and I started a thread on free will that engendered more posts than I had ever imagined. I have your other three posts so I will get back to those as soon as time. I never forget my favorite atheists, just ask Nimos.
Everything that happens to you was not willed by you, some things just happen to you through no willing by you. It was not my will that caused me to get hit by a car on the highway while I was riding my bike to work in 2005. It was an accident.
The difference is that God has no accidents; everything God does is intentional on His part. Moreover, God does not do things like a humans does things, God wills things and they are done.
But having read your scenario twice I figured it out pretty quick. The reason God does not provide the help is because God knows that even with the help, John won’t become a believer. After all, since God knows everything that has ever happened or will ever happen, God knows who will choose to become a believer. The reason John won’t choose to become a believer is NOT because God wouldn’t help John, it is because even with God’s help John would not choose to become a believer. The caveat is that God never forces His will upon anyone, everyone has to choose to become a believer or not. God might help those people who are on the fence because God knows they might choose to become a believer with God’s help.
God probably tries to help more people than we will ever know about, but of course we cannot know what God is doing (willing) at any time.
“Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.
The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.
God grant that thou who art the fruit of My Tree, and they that are associated with thee, may be shielded from its evil consequences.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 133
Simple, God knew there would be an impending fate would never become an actual fate.
Remember, God knows everything, before during and after it happens in this world.
No, it is a belief which is different than an opinion because an opinion is personal and a belief is based upon scriptures.
I know because I did my research so I know that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be. I would not believe the others who claim to be from God because they have nothing that shows that they got any communication from God -- they have no fruits, no mission and no scriptures.
Not anything can happen, only things God has slated as being “impending” (meaning something that might have happened if you has done things differently ir if you had not done anything to avert it, like praying to God.)
Good catch.
But that is not what I am saying. I am saying that God will do certain things if they are in accordance with His will. God ONLY does what is in accordance with His will but things happen to humans that are not willed by them.
Everything that happens to you was not willed by you, some things just happen to you through no willing by you. It was not my will that caused me to get hit by a car on the highway while I was riding my bike to work in 2005. It was an accident.
The difference is that God has no accidents; everything God does is intentional on His part. Moreover, God does not do things like a humans does things, God wills things and they are done.
Why would it be meaningless?
That’s really nice of you to force me to think when it is 100 degrees outside and almost as hot indoors!
But having read your scenario twice I figured it out pretty quick. The reason God does not provide the help is because God knows that even with the help, John won’t become a believer. After all, since God knows everything that has ever happened or will ever happen, God knows who will choose to become a believer. The reason John won’t choose to become a believer is NOT because God wouldn’t help John, it is because even with God’s help John would not choose to become a believer. The caveat is that God never forces His will upon anyone, everyone has to choose to become a believer or not. God might help those people who are on the fence because God knows they might choose to become a believer with God’s help.God probably tries to help more people than we will ever know about, but of course we cannot know what God is doing (willing) at any time.
That is what I have been saying, that nothing is locked in unless it is an irrevocable fate. That means it will happen no matter what and even though God could alter it He never does because altering it would cause more harm than good.
It is not meaningless to me and to others who know what it implies. It implies that an impending fate can be altered by praying and asking God to be spared having to endure that fate…
“Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.
The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.
God grant that thou who art the fruit of My Tree, and they that are associated with thee, may be shielded from its evil consequences.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 133
Simple, God knew there would be an impending fate would never become an actual fate.
Remember, God knows everything, before during and after it happens in this world.
As I said above, since God is the determiner of all fate, but what God has set as a potential fate is a potential fate and a potential fate does not become a fate until it unfolds. For example, it might be my potential fate to get into medical school, but until I actually the admitted into medical school it is not my actual fate.
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
So a belief is an opinion that is based on scriptures'.
People of other faiths would say that about their beliefs with just as much conviction as you say it about yours. If they can still be wrong, so can you.
I don't see how this can eliminate anything.
Good catch.
Do I take it you are withdrawing your claim in question? Specifically, about God's free will?
Do you actually think about this? "God will do certain things if they are in accordance with His will." The simple fact is that this applies to anyone. I will get a pizza tonight if it is my will that I get a pizza. Ultimately, it's meaningless double talk that sounds impressive but explains little to nothing.
You missed my point. I was showing how you were deceptively using the different meanings of the word "will" to try to prove a point. I've already called you out on it.
So the mechanism by which he makes things happen is different.
Because if there is an "impending fate" for today that you will have chicken for dinner after buying some at the supermarket, but actual fate is to stay home, do the groceries tomorrow and just order a pizza for dinner tonight, then God can eliminate the impending fate altogether. Thus, it is not an impending fate because God knows for sure that it won't happen.
That’s really nice of you to force me to think when it is 100 degrees outside and almost as hot indoors!
God probably tries to help more people than we will ever know about, but of course we cannot know what God is doing (willing) at any time.
You didn't read my scenario very well.
I said that John would not become a believer if he doesn't receive help, but he would become a believer if he does receive help.
By your logic, God could provide no help, John will remain an unbeliever, and God would say, "See? I told you he wouldn't become a believer, that's why I didn't help him."
Okay, let's leave aside the fact that you are just guessing that changing it could do more harm than good.
The fact remains that anything that is NOT locked in could create a situation that would render what is locked in impossible.
For example, it could be locked in that tonight I go out to dinner with my girlfriend. But what I do during the day is not locked in.
So, it's possible that during the day I fall off the roof and end up in a coma, spending six weeks unconscious in hospital. Ah, but that would mean I couldn't go out to dinner with my girlfriend. So I guess anything that has me falling off a roof and ending up in a coma is locked out.
Or, I might choose to go to the airport and get on a place to New Zealand, leaving my girlfriend at home. Ah, but that also means that I couldn't go out to dinner with my girlfriend. So I guess that's locked out too.
And I could go on, thinking up literally as many situations as you want that I could do in my not-locked-in day that would make it impossible to have my locked-in dinner with my girlfriend.
The only way you can avoid this problem is to claim that what I do during the day is locked in, because that's the only way you can explain why it is impossible for me to do something in my not-locked-in day that would render my locked-in dinner impossible.
If God knew it would never become actual fate, what is it that makes it impending fate?
How could it be your potential fate if it is your actual fate to never step into medical school at all? If it is your actual fate to never go to medical school, that eliminates any potential in the potential fate.
As Christ and the Gospels are a part of my Faith I only ceased following man made church doctrines but accept Jesus and His Teachings.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Anyone can be wrong because humans are not infallible. Do you understand why what other people believe with conviction is no proof that I am wrong even if they are wrong? Logically speaking my religion is either true or false and it has nothing to do with what I believe or what other people believe about it. You need to determine for yourself if it is true or false, if you want to know.
It eliminates anything that was not an impending fate.
It does apply to anyone but the caveat is that things happen to humans that are not what they willed whereas everything God does is according to His will and nothing ever happens to God against His will. The same cannot be said for humans who have things done to them against their will or outside of their will. Accidents and injuries are not willed by humans, they just happen to humans.
I am not here to win a debate or prove anything. I just explain things as best I can.
It sure is different because God is different from a human.
It was still an impending fate until you decided to stay home, do the groceries tomorrow and just order a pizza for dinner tonight. What God knew would not happen had nothing to do with it.
You still do not understand, do you? God did not provide the help because God knew that John would not become a believer even if God helped John. So that is why God did not help John, because God knew God would not choose to become a believer even with God’s help. God’s help is no guarantee that John will become a believer, John still has to choose.
To try to keep this simple, let’s just say that anything that would make it impossible for you to have dinner with your girlfriend would be locked out, but that does not mean that everything you do during the day would be locked in, because many different things could lead up to and make it possible for you to have dinner with your girlfriend.
Because it is what was fated by God to happen unless we did something differently, like praying.
No, because all the way up until I did not get into medical school it was my potential fate, but as soon as I did not get into medical school that interfered with what could have happened, making it impossible for me to attend medical school. This is no different from your dinner scenario. All the way up to the time that you had the dinner with your girlfriend it was your potential fate to have the dinner, until something happened that interfered and made that dinner date impossible.