Why do some atheists have to be so insulting and mean?

[Trailblazer]

Was just thinking, I do have a similar experience (just to add). I used to go to a Buddhist forum. The set up is nice but not the people. The firet time I came there years ago, I mentioned my experience with catholicism. The "supervisor" jumped on me saying I wasnt a real Buddhist and was mixed (similar what I got here but thank gosh only from a member, but thats it). Anyway, senior member at that site kept making jokes.

After awhile, it felt like they were ganging up and others say "why you so defensive." The supervisor kept messaging me to tell me I kept doing something wrong with the rules. In ALL foruns I read the rules. Trust issues.

Years later, I came back. I ignored the supervisor. Then I made a thread and she was the first to make a sassy comment. A newer member called her out on it and I messaged him saying thank you. It wasnt me. Just senior members seem to have issues with other religions others have grudges.

I went to another buddhist forum and said I started practicing at the Kadampa temple. Its the only lineage in my area who speak english. They warned me and said not to talk about it YET all the tibetan practices has their own sub forum, we just couldnt use the K-word. A member fussed at me in message and reported me.

I found another buddhist forum set up by monks and strictly Dharma study based. No "outsiders" (no one making a ruckess) and very few people outside the Theravada school including myself. Youd survive there if youre familar with the suttas for study and indepth talk.

I dont know what forum you were on. The christian forum I mentioned welcomes christians (no JW and no mormons no non trinitarians) with open arms. If you want the link, I'll give it to you.

Your experience on that forum sounds similar to mine, a power hungry manager. I have finally had it with that. He says he took my Voice away but I am still talking. I have my own forum so I can do whatever I want there, but I would never put people down or try to control them. He tries to make me look like the bad guy because I am the only one who will stand up to him, but I was never rude, never. I am just honest. He does not like that because he isn’t. He even told me that sometimes we have to lie. No we don’t.

Thanks for the offer of the forum but I have more posts than I can handle as it is. I can only have one forum as my primary forum and it will be this one. Nothing could bring me back to that forum except an apology, but I know that will never happen. He has a vendetta against the Baha’i Faith, so I hope he is now happy that Baha’i talk is now gone from his forum... My husband is a Baha’i but he also blocked him, blaming me for going on his forum using his handle to steal posts after I had been blocked. I never did that, but my husband will not go there again anyway.

 

[Trailblazer]

That may not have been your intention but it’s how your post came across. You apparently had some kind of dispute with a single individual but rather than address that, you decided to associate their actions with one particular characteristic they happen to share with millions of other people. Imagine someone doing the same kind of thing but opening with “Why are blacks..”, “Why are Jews…” or “Why are women…”?

Your dispute was with an individual and while their atheism was clearly relevant to your topic of discussion, it isn’t relevant to the negative manner they apparently behaved towards you. You have absolutely zero justification in associating their actions with even just some atheists any more than you would any of the countless other characteristics they would have.

Having no god to answer to isn’t why some atheists are immoral. Those people would be immoral regardless of whether they believed in a god (and believed they’d have to answer to that god). You also make the presumption that the god believers are answering to is moral themselves. So yes, it’s a mixed bag, to the point that there is literally no practical difference at all.

I understand how my OP came across to many people and I already explained to many people here why I posted it that way.Moreover, I do have some justification in associating these behaviors with more than one atheist because more than one atheist has behaved this way towards me, saying such things as “rational people do x” which of course implies I am irrational since I do y... I cannot count the number of atheists who have said this to me, over and over and over again. By contrast, I have never heard any believer say that. The implication is that I “cannot be” rational because rational people do not believe in sky fairies (gods).

If the shoe fits, wear it. If atheists do not want the reputation of being arrogant they should stop being arrogant, some but not all are.

Oh, regarding moral behavior, there absolutely is a difference between an atheist and a believer, since belief in God and an afterlife is a strong deterrent against treating others poorly and a whole lot of other stuff people do. I never said that believers do not do the same things but if one took a poll it would be less believers doing them since God is a scary fella, if one takes His existence seriously. For example, when it comes to sexual behavior, I do not know any atheists who object to premarital sex. That is because they do not believe in the Bible or any other scriptures that teach that. I am sure many believers have premarital sex, but at least if they are a Christian or a Baha’i, they know better.

 

[Trailblazer]

I didn't take your post as an attack upon all atheists.
Just the mean ones. And there are plenty of those.
We could call'm "Westboro Atheists", eh?

Thanks. No it was not an attack on ALL atheists. If it had been I would have said “atheists” or “all atheists.”

 

[Trailblazer]

"Could be taken that way"?

Your words are more than a little plain.

You are not describing one person.

You start with "some atheists", plural.
Then throughout it is "they" and "them". "Atheists",
plural. "Some of them".

Almost like freudian that it is always plural.

" their air of superiority, arrogance, and rude behavior, not to mention dishonesty, lack of self-awareness and unjust treatment of others."

There is no way on (god's) green earth this can be construed as being about one person.

And then you make it my problem that you said what you said.


All people project their own thoughts and feelings onto others but the more self-aware they are the less they do it, because they own their own thoughts and feelings instead of blaming someone else for them.

Right.

It was about one person but it was not stated as such. I already clarified that on this thread and explained why it was posted that way. At the time of posting I did not know if I wanted to discuss the one person. Then I was kind of backed into a corner.

But there is more than one atheist who behaves this way so “some atheists” covers it adequately.

 

[Trailblazer]

Clearly for some, not all, atheists, they despise people on an intellectual basis while not showing the love of Christ, if you follow me...

Yes, that is true for some but not all. It tends to be a personality thing.

 

[Trailblazer]

Oh, that is very easy to explain. I discovered I had a narcissistic father, and attracted the same (in)humans around me. They all have 1 specific characteristic "sorry does not exist in their vocabulary". On the other hand, and quite understandingly "lying is their second nature", needed of course to escape to have to say sorry [sometimes they might say sorry, but then it is a lie. The final escape to avoid exposure; but they only do it when no other choice is left]. I spend like 8month on a narcissistic forum. Took me a long time to get that issue cleared out. Now I give narcissists about 5sec slack.

It's good to know and accept that once they are a narcissist that it's one of those rare conditions and exceptions that is incurable [even God is incapable/impotent here; I didn't see my parents for few years because of narcissism]. My master used to say "How to get God to laugh...tell Him your plan", "so He must be laughing His head of now I am telling Him His plan and incapabiltity of curing narcissists.

So I do understand and sympathize with people on the forum who claim "how can God be so rude to allow this", that's why I kind of tickle God [no offense] now and then, just give God a good laugh, I like to laugh, so I just remember and practise what the Bible teaches us "do unto God what you want God to do unto you". And maybe when God laughs in His mercy He might cure a narcissist or 2.

Narcissists normally get it imposed on them by bad parenting [just google the father of Hitler then you get even pity on hitler] already before the age of 4 the experts say. Good to know, so you can forgive them BUT it is essential to forget about them; NOCONTACT is the only and best contact in that case [I know when married to one, it's a tough cookie to find the best solution; I am luckily single]. So when you understand this situation, there is an easy way out. You have it all in your own hands. I only had to learn this principle and put it in practise [took time, but worked miracles]. Good luck.

I don't know if this man you talk about is a narcissist. But this info might be very good to know anyway, because the universe has in the moment quite a few of them walking around [and you seem to me one of their favourite appetizers]. I think USA has one of the biggest [of course KJU will top that IMHO] ruling their country now [I might be wrong, but I see all the signals of narcissism to a T.]. Of course I hope I am wrong, because if it is the case you can be in for stormy ride [as he is himself also]. But I do have a feeling he might be taken out of the picture this year.
[We also have them here, though. That's why I can sympathize with you guys].

Well, you are right that sorry does not exist in his vocabulary and he will lie to save face. I am not sure he is a true narcissist though, he is just super arrogant about how smart he is because he has a PhD in a science subject, so anyone who is not educated is dumb. I have several college degrees, two advanced, but I am still dumb because they are not in science subjects... But the main reason I am dumb is because I have “mere belief” which to him is the lowest form of thinking. Really when people act like this they are knocking others down in order to feel superior. And he will use anything I say against me.

As I recall of his story, he was the child that was slated by his mother for success, he was the smartest child in his family, the one who would go a long way. So he did succeed in college and a career and that is his sole identity. He does not really flaunt that outwardly, but he drags it out as a weapon when in battle. Otherwise, he tries to appear humble, but humble people don’t call others stupid. No, he cannot call anyone stupid to their face because that is against the rules, so he calls their beliefs stupid, what’s the difference?

 

[Trailblazer]

Take it from an experienced Forum Debater. Every forum has people that are jerks, in all areas of life not limited to just the Religious and Non-Religious. If this is the only place you are having a hard time stop debating you don't have to. It is your choice. If however it is happening in real-life it needs to be addressed. I read the op as you understood it happens in debate forums but why is happening in real life. I am glad it is not happening to you in real life but suggest you need to get tougher on the internet. People tend to be jerks here because there is no consequence.

I just try to mind my own business and respond to posts posted to me. Rarely do I respond to a post NOT posted to me and if I do it is just light chit chat, nothing serious. I do not even attempt to debate, I gave that up years ago. I just present information related to the post I received. Then they (I mean he since it is mostly one person) does not “like” my answers. And because he is the forum owner you can guess what happens after that... Unless I apologize for doing nothing wrong, he just escalates and then he goes through the roof.

Well, I am off that forum now... He locked me out and then lied about why to the entire forum just to save face.... Now he can sit and watch his numbers go down because I was the main poster generating posts on his forum.... He was just so proud of being one of the top forums in that forum group, not anymore...

 

[Trailblazer]

Don't you understand ? Because their worldview is so vastly superior to yours, and because they think you are stupidly ignorant, it is within their right to jeer at you, condemn your beliefs in the crudest terms and call you names. It is simply the superior exercising his right against an inferior. In their view, this is just an extension of the "fittest" exercising inherent power over the "unfit".

You have just described this atheist I have been talking about to a tee. He thinks it is justified to call believers names because of course he is right about us and we are just too stupid to know how stupid we are. We are too brainwashed.

Don't expect civility from them, because their arguments are so weak, attempted verbal bullying is what substitutes for rational and reasoned argument. Many are driven by nothing more than rage and hate, and they are happy to try and use you as a punching bag. Since their morality is on a sliding scale, so is their civility slides around as well, you deserve none.

You described him again. It is too bad atheists like him make other good atheists look bad.
You raise a good point. The more rational and reasoned my argument is, the angrier they become. So the only way to stay out of the line of fire is to act stupid and make no good arguments... He says I need to change my tone because I am too aggressive but what he really means is that I need to stop making arguments that make sense, ones he cannot refute... Does my tone here sound aggressive?

If you are going to engage them, expect this. Don't disabuse them of their shoddy behavior, that encourages them. I, when provoked enough, stoop to returning in kind. I have no doubt that you are stronger in Christian self control than I, and wouldn't do that.

I metaphorically try and think of a Missionary amongst barbarians, even cannibals. That makes the engagement a little more palpable.

I have learned not to treat them in kind, not to stoop to their level. But I will not take the insults either so I call them out, in my own toned down way. This has taken years of practice.

 

[Trailblazer]

Could mean, not as you indicated, definitely will find. And considering to date, after several thousand years of worshiping many and varied gods none have ever owned up with """I DONE IT""".

In the mean time I'll stick with the evidence.

In anyone behaves badly, they should face justice, you don't need a god belief to understand what is right and what is wrong.

I fully agree. No need for a God to know right from wrong...
They should face justice in this life but often that does not happen, in which case I hope they face it in the afterlife.

 

[Trailblazer]

To an atheist, this is a pretty arrogant statement.

No, it is just logical. Fear of God and knowing there is an afterlife where we will be called to account for our actions is a strong deterrent.

If I was an atheist I can imagine trying to be kind to everyone, but not worrying as much as I do now if I mess up. Given I believe in God and in an afterlife, I know I will be faced with how I hurt others if I did. If there are no repercussions in an afterlife, one can scrape by in this world and not worry as much. That is what I meant by my comment.

 

[Trailblazer]

I do not claim God exists, I believe and know God exists... there is a big difference.
All I can do is point you to the evidence that led me to that conclusion but it probably won’t constitute evidence for you.

 

[Trailblazer]

I agree with you, but if you go to online groups that are concerned with discussing true vs. false, you will necessarily attract discourtesy if you don't learn critical thinking. Even then you will attract discourtesy, but you won't care about it as much.

Thanks, but it is my critical thinking that causes the discourtesy in the first place because they cannot refute what I present and it makes them angry.

 

[Trailblazer]

As Malcom S. Forbes is reported to have said, “You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him." You cannot, however, as reliably judge the character of a person by how intelligent or knowledgeable they are.

Having said that, even the best people sometimes show frustration at views they find absurd or dangerous. That's no excuse, but human nature is what it is.

Both good points... Well said.

 

[Cary Cook]

Thanks, but it is my critical thinking that causes the discourtesy in the first place because they cannot refute what I present and it makes them angry.

Doesn't knowing that make you care less about their discourtesy?

 

[Trailblazer]

Maybe frustration and lack of patiences by non-believers, occur when non-believers are talking about apples, and believers are talking about oranges. Maybe it's because non-believers are sensitive to being told that their position on Religion, is only just another religious belief in disguise (another fallacy). Maybe it's because non-believers do not like being told that they are sinful, immoral, or that they just hate God. Maybe it's because non-believers must suffer through every fallacious argument, believers use to support their position, except "I believe because I just want to believe". Maybe it's because of the threats of personal damnation, or the implied claim that righteousness and moral behavior are exclusive only to those of faith. Maybe it's because of suffering through believers rote learned, distorted, and incomplete knowledge of even the most basic of scientific principles. Finally, the shear unmasked avoidances and denials, whenever believers are asked to present evidence to support their non-testimonial claims, or the blatant shifting of their burden of responsibility. All these might extend the bounds of human endurance and patience.

Hello again my friend. I consider all men one people because that is according to my religion. If a believer behaved the way that atheist (and some others) behaved I would say the same thing. People should not treat each other this way simply because they have different beliefs. That is okay if it happens once in a while, nobody’s perfect, but when insults and derogatory comments happen repeatedly I find it inexcusable. It is mean and selfish. What else can I say? These are the people who are godless, whether they believe in God or not. Beliefs do not make anyone a good person.

Why can’t we talk about apples and oranges and still get along? Why is it necessary to cut someone else down? Believers and nonbelievers are just horses of a different color but we can all run in the same field.

I can understand non-believers complaining if a believer threatens you with personal damnation, tells you are sinful, immoral, or that you just hate God. There is no excuse for this kind of behavior in the part of believers. People should never speak for other people and tell them what they are or what their intentions are or what their eternal destination is. It is just wrong.

You said non-believers must suffer through every fallacious argument believers use to support their position, except “I believe because I just want to believe” and non-believers must suffer through believers rote learned, distorted, and incomplete knowledge of even the most basic of scientific principles, and non-believers must suffer through the shear unmasked avoidances and denials, whenever believers are asked to present evidence to support their non-testimonial claims, or the blatant shifting of their burden of responsibility. You said that all these might extend the bounds of human endurance and patience.

Why must you suffer through these things? Why do these things extend the bounds of human endurance and patience? Why do believers have the burden of proof to prove God exists when that is impossible? Why do you assume all believers are the same? I do not think all non-believers are the same. All believers do not have rote learned, distorted, and incomplete knowledge of even the most basic of scientific principles, but even if some do, why does that cause you to suffer, unless they are inflicting those upon you?

Now, let’s put the shoe on the other foot. I cannot speak for other believers, only myself. Non-believers continually ask me for “evidence” that God exists or that a Messenger/Prophet is from God, but then when I give them the evidence they do not like the evidence. I give non-believers all the evidence I have and they continually complain I should have some other kind of evidence. It is as if a robber holds me up and I give him everything I have and he thinks I should have more. But I only have what I have and if that is not good enough, then what am I supposed to do? I cannot produce evidence I do not have. God provides what God provides for evidence and I cannot make an omnipotent God provide any more. It is illogical to expect that.

Atheist don't say they don't need any god(s).They simple don't believe that there is any proof that any exist. If there was even one ounce of proof, then there would be zero Atheists in the world today. Even someone as well credentialed as you must know, that intellectual maturity is not immune to the effects of cognitive dissonance or other psychological needs. Even very smart people can be fooled and manipulated, if given the right encouragement. Atheist are simply the people that believe, that the "king is not wearing any clothes". I think the idea of a personal belief and a personal God, should be kept that way.

No, there is no proof that God exists, but there is evidence.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid:
Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement:

Atheists want proof of something that cannot be proven, which is illogical. An “immaterial” God cannot be proven to exist by any objective means that science employs. Religion is the evidence that God exists, whether non-believers like that or not, because that is how God decided to reveal Himself, through Messengers who establish religions.

Sure, I know that intellectual maturity is not immune to the effects of cognitive dissonance or other psychological needs and that even very smart people can be fooled and manipulated, if given the right encouragement, but it does not logically follow that all believers believe in God because they have psychological needs or that they were fooled and manipulated, or that they were given encouragement. It could just be that they investigated a religion for themselves and decided it was the Truth from God. It could just be that is the reason they believe in it, not because they have any special psychological need to believe. We are all human so we all have psychological needs. This idea nonbelievers have that all believers are “needy” because they believe in God is just silly. Some very well might be, but not all are. For example, my Christian coworker once said that she is needy (in need of God) and she said she did not care what anyone thinks of that. I just smiled under my breath because I do not feel that way at all; in fact, many days I wish I could leave God off at the bus depot for all the help I get from Him!

Nobody can be fooled or manipulated unless they allow themselves to be fooled or manipulated, since we all have free will. If we each independently investigate Truth for ourselves then we cannot be fooled or manipulated. This one atheist I was referring to in the OP says we are brainwashed but that is ridiculous because brainwashing requires a brainwasher. To that he will say we brainwashed ourselves, but who is he to say that, how can he know what goes on in another person’s mind? That is so arrogant.

 

[Trailblazer]

Except you did generalize. No, not to every single atheist, but you generalized to a larger trend.

Atheists also have no gods to forgive them. If we hurt someone and want to make it right, we have to do it ourselves. No god is going to excuse us from fixing our own mistakes.

I said nothing about a larger trend. I said “some atheists.” I know more than one who has behaved this way although it was only one I was thinking about when I posted the OP. Moreover, on forums I am constantly being insulted, directly or indirectly. This forum seems to be an exception.

All believers are not Christians so not all believers have a God who is going to forgive them. Baha’is are accountable to God and we are not forgiven if we do bad things, not any more than anyone else.

 

[Trailblazer]

Speaking as an ex atheist, I was every bit as patronizing and mean as many atheists here.

And I agree, from the other side, I just don't feel that same disdain.

So it's not that I am an angelic person now who is above being mean, I think there is something inherent in the belief;

That is to say, the denial of belief/faith. The belief that atheism is an 'intellectually superior truth'. Anyone with a different belief is hence 'intellectually inferior'- which justifies having the truth forced on them

Case in point: "Evolution is a fact. Beyond reasonable doubt, beyond serious doubt, beyond sane, informed, intelligent doubt, beyond doubt evolution is a fact." Dawkins

..and hence..

It is absolutely safe to say that if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane or wicked.... Dawkins

For most atheists I have encountered, the belief is that atheism is an intellectually superior truth. Anyone with a different belief is hence intellectually inferior- which justifies having the truth forced on them.

That says it all regarding the atheist I was referring to in the OP.

But let me just say this.... There has only been one atheist I have known like that, although there have been others who are in the same ball park... They just do not justify having the truth of their superiority forced on believers.

Moreover, most agnostics are not arrogant like that although some who call themselves agnostics are really atheists and they can get really rude... I was verbally accosted by one on my forum today... They do that when they are backed into a corner and cannot respond to my logical arguments for why we need Messengers of God, it is as predictable as the sun will come up tomorrow morning... They think that God owes them a personal message.

LOL.... What comes around goes around. That atheist banned me from his forum to muzzle my beliefs, and he used false pretenses to justify that to everyone on that forum. My husband has the same beliefs as me and that atheist put my husband on moderation for no good reason. He thinks he can have my husband and not me on his forum, all the while censoring everything he writes, but he found out today that is not happening because my husband gave him the boot and told him if he wants to post to him he will have to come to my forum which is right next door.... There is no censorship there...

So now there is only one Baha’i left on that forum and she hardly ever talks about her beliefs, she just chats... But she is not very knowledgeable so whatever she says is not always accurate... Like yesterday she said that there was no world crisis! ~~~ Does she have a television? Then that atheist forum owner told her my husband said there was a crisis... He will just have to come to MY FORUM if he wants to find out what it is.

My husband asked in the moderated post what the justification was for putting him on moderation but I doubt the forum owner will come clean because there is no justification, as my husband did not do anything except get married to me. He just wants to screen my husband’s posts in case my husband posts the truth of why I was banned or God forbid, in case my husband talks about his Baha’i beliefs on a “purportedly” religious forum! Dontcha know, that is proselytizing whenever you talk about religious beliefs but he can promote atheist beliefs and that is just fine... did I hear the word hypocrite?

Like duh, does he really think we are that dumb that we do not know what he is up to....? No we do not have a PhD in Physics like he does but I have an MA in Psychology, which tends to be more useful than the Physics degree when assessing forum behavior.

LOL, that same atheist came to another believer forum that was mostly Baha’is and called them all brainwashed believers... that went on for a while until the forum owner changed his rules so that was disallowed.... I have not seem him posting there since... I wonder why?

Oh, one more thing... that atheist forum owner has in his forum rules that personal jabs and personal insults are against the rules but he is constantly calling believers brainwashed and dumb and he says that belief is the lowest from of thought.... THAT is not an insult?

Never once did I ever insult anyone and in fact I always say that atheism is a respectable position since nobody can prove that God exists....

 

[Trailblazer]

Evolution IS a fact beyond any reasonable doubt. It is a scientific certainty, proven by the scientific method of enquiry through inductive and deductive reasoning.. The story of Jesus and the existence of a God IS NOT a fact beyond any reasonable doubt. It is a cultural belief based on faith and tradition, not on certainty.

But so what if the story of Jesus and the existence of a God IS NOT a fact beyond any reasonable doubt? The effect that Jesus had upon civilization is a FACT.

“What then is the mission of the divine prophets? Their mission is the education and advancement of the world of humanity. They are the real teachers and educators, the universal instructors of mankind. If we wish to discover whether any one of these great souls or messengers was in reality a prophet of God we must investigate the facts surrounding His life and history; and the first point of our investigation will be the education He bestowed upon mankind. If He has been an educator, if He has really trained a nation or people, causing it to rise from the lowest depths of ignorance to the highest station of knowledge, then we are sure that He was a prophet. This is a plain and clear method of procedure, proof that is irrefutable. We do not need to seek after other proofs.”
Bahá’í World Faith, pp. 270, 272, 273

Religion was not designed to produce any tangible benefits, only emotional rewards. It was designed to make adults feel good about themselves and others. Despite this emotive aspect of religious belief, it still persists despite the development of our improved reasoning ability. Religious beliefs and rituals may continue to help adults feel good, but this is more a matter of feelings than of reason. So, why should we elevate the emotional aspects of religious belief over the cognitive or intellectual ones?

Here is the value of religion, in a nutshell:

“Our past is not the thing that matters so much in this world as what we intend to do with our future. The inestimable value of religion is that when a man is vitally connected with it, through a real and living belief in it and in the Prophet Who brought it, he receives a strength greater than his own which helps him to develop his good characteristics and overcome his bad ones. The whole purpose of religion is to change not only our thoughts but our acts; when we believe in God and His Prophet and His Teachings, we find we are growing, even though we perhaps thought ourselves incapable of growth and change!”
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, October 3, 1943)
Lights of Guidance (second part)

The effect that belief in God and His Prophet has upon people is a FACT because many people can testify to that effect, including myself.

 

[Trailblazer]

My position (not belief), is that there is not one bit of evidence that could support any belief in the existence of any Deity. In any God(s). In anything supernatural. If anyone could present just one God-specific bit of evidence, my position would change immediately. I should never need to convince myself that anything that I believe is real, actually is real.

What do you envision would be acceptable evidence? Why shouldn’t you need to convince yourself that anything you believe in is actually real, because the evidence should make God’s existence self-evident?

"So you have no need for any God because God does not exist?". I think we are talking about two different questions, and are just trying to link the two to make them inclusive. I may or may not have need of a God, but I find no evidence that any God(s) exist. Or, maybe a God does exist, and I still may have or have not any need for a God. To answer your question, Since I have no reason to believe that a God(s) does actually exist, then the need for a non-existent God(s) becomes irrelevant. If you are talking about a need for God(s) in a rhetorical sense, I certainly do. In Viet Nam, in times of sickness, and other events in my life, I have called for God's help many times.

Okay thanks. I think I understand now. You have no evidence that a Deity but if you could obtain evidence, then you would decide if you needed the deity or not. It is irrelevant if you NEED a deity that does not exist. I get it.

Why do you think that you have called for God’s help if God does not exist? You would not cry “Oh Santa Claus!” or “Oh, pink unicorn!” Imo, it is inborn, because on a subconscious level we all know God exists. It is our conscious mind that blocks that knowledge with all the reasons we can think of to question God’s existence. There is so much confirmation bias from previous experiences with religion and things others say. I did not have any of that because I am a free spirit and I float my own boat. Also, I was not raised in any religion so I had no confirmation bias.

Because many believers feel that their belief is right, some feel that those that do not believe are wrong, ignorant, evil, or just making a bad choice. Many feel that the reason Atheist refuse to believe in God's existence, is not because of the lack of evidence supporting the existence of a God, but that they lack a need to believe in the existence of a God. This implies that a belief in God does not fit into their everyday lives, and nothing to do with the lack of actual evidence. Therefore lack of need equates to lack of belief. One statement does not depend on the other. This is false equivocation(fallacy).

No, I do not believe any of that. I have been posting to nonbelievers day and night for over five years. I also have an advanced degree in psychology so I understand how the mind works. I also have a keen interest in analyzing things and helping people. I think everyone should have the opportunity to believe in God if they want to, but the evidence as per the Bible that there has been to date is sorely lacking. This is very sad.

Belief is nobody’s right. It is something God guides us towards if we make a sincere effort. Some people will never believe in God because of the constraints on their free will. What people see and understand is varies according to a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. For example, if one has a huge confirmation bias from a past bad experience with religion in childhood or adulthood, they are not going to give God a fair shot. In effect, they threw the baby (God) out with the bath water (religion). That bath water was dirty so I can understand that.

I know too much about psychology and I have talked to too many nonbelievers to say that those that do not believe are wrong, ignorant, evil, or just making a bad choice. That is a judgment and I do not have the right or interest in judging anyone. Moreover, if someone tell me something, I take that at face value. Why would I think ** I ** know more than someone knows about themselves? Belief is and isn’t a choice. However, I think that if someone rejects the evidence out of hand then in a sense they are making a choice not to believe. Why they make that choice is complicated. That is not to say that if the “looked” at the evidence they “would believe” but one cannot get out of the driveway and down to the store without a car.

You said “Many feel that the reason Atheist refuse to believe in God's existence, is not because of the lack of evidence supporting the existence of a God, but that they lack a need to believe in the existence of a God.” This makes no logical sense at all because it implies that all one needs is a need, but any logical person needs evidence. Anyone who believes based upon need does not really know that God exists, they are just so needy that they accepted belief to have their needs met.

I was not looking for God when I stumbled upon my belief. I had no interest and I had no need.For decades after I realized God existed I tried to ignore God because I wanted to be in the driver’s seat.Moreover, belief in God did not fit into my everyday life. I now know I need God but I am still driving the car. He is just in the back seat guiding me as I go down the road.

 

[Trailblazer]

The fact that it's your OPINION that there's lots of evidence to support the existence of a Deity, will negate the idea of absolute certainty. In fact, it negates the idea of any level of certainty. I will concede that you may subjectively have absolute confidence and conviction, in regards to this certitude. But no certitute is absolute. So let's simply start with just one objective fact or data, or any consistent fallacy-free train of logic, that might suggest the existence of any Deity.

I can have absolute certainty that there is a deity but that does not prove there is a deity. I just know there is. The REASON I know is because of the “lots of evidence.”

The objective facts and data I have are regarding the deity’s Messenger. I can present a logical argument as to why that is the only way we can ever know anything about the deity. I have scads of Word documents on this topic because I have written so many posts to nonbelievers on other forums. I would not even know where to start.

Sorry it took me so long to get back to your posts... I got so far behind because of the fiasco with the atheist referred to in the OP. I need to make a clean break from that forum group and I am in the process of doing so. The problem I have encountered is that I have my own forum there that I feel responsible for and a couple of my atheist friends recently came back to post there. I never ignore people who want to talk to me but time is limited.