Why Do They Do It?

[Scolopendra]

How can a father look at his 12 year old daughter, and shoot her to death?
Nev. Police Officer Fatally Shot Daughter, 12, and Injured Wife and Son Before Turning Gun on Himself

I would say, for starters, it's a lack of love.
What do you think? Why do people do things like this?

Mental instability. Complete lack of empathy is a sign of mental illness.

 

[nPeace]

A couple of things here ─ you're an honest money-changer lawfully conducting your occupation at the Temple with full permission of the Temple authorities, and some thug takes to you with a whip, drives you out, kicks over your tables and scatters your money. You wouldn't see much love in that, would you? Rather, you'd say, "Excuse me, sir, we're here trading completely lawfully. Please get control of yourself and put down that whip. If you assault us that won't change anything except that honest people will think the less of you, and you'll be guilty of breaching the peace and liable to punishment accordingly. If you don't like the rules, why don't you peaceably make your case to the Temple authorities and see what you can achieve within the law?"

Do you seriously believe a foreigner, from God knows where could just go into the Jewish temple, and sell goods? Laughs

Do you seriously think any foreigner among the Jews, did not know if they were violating Jewish law? Laughs

Where did you read that Jesus took to anyone with a whip?

No argument. Killing children is horrific and killing your own children is an order of magnitude more so. But our question is, why does it actually happen at all, no?

Why do you think people do these things?

What then is your definition of love? How come H sap sap individuals love, their partners, their parents, their siblings, their children, their friends ...? Why did we evolve with those traits, and what parts of our metabolism cause them to happen?

Did you not say it is an aspect of being human?
Why did we evolve with those traits? The last time I checked, they said we can trace heredity to ones grandparents -> their parents -> their parents ... You get the picture.
They extrapolate that, but those ides are not swallowed by everone.
Heredity is not evolution either.

H sap sap is a species of animal. I don't think that's controversial, is it?

It's not? Laughs
So you are saying, animals are human?

 

[nPeace]

Mental instability. Complete lack of empathy is a sign of mental illness.

I don't think many people agree with you, otherwise Ted Bundy, and many others would have been in a mental institute, rather than dead, by execution.

Though, I do believe the mind is not "normal", most people think "Mental instability" always has physical explanations. I don't think so.

 

[nPeace]

Well I tend to agree - as to twisted love - in that any love that might be present - and I think such would exist given their previous life all too often, as to not showing any abnormal signs quite often - but something makes them flip as to seeing any future prospects. And this personal feeling of doom then spreading to encompass all that they do in fact love. I doubt many who kill toddlers or very young children of their own do not love them. Their mind is unbalanced is the most likely reason for doing such things - like an unsolvable dilemma perhaps, and where they take the worst option rather than anything else available.

Okay, thanks.
I'm not sure anyone can find out if that's true, but it's your theory.
I think the better explanation is the Bible's.
So, you believe people that are living today, lived before in another life?

 

[blü 2]

Do you seriously believe a foreigner, from God knows where could just go into the Jewish temple, and sell goods? Laughs

[Joins in the laughter] No, I mean that the traders in the Temple were carrying out traditional. customary and approved roles, which is why they were there in the first place.

Do you seriously think any foreigner among the Jews, did not know if they were violating Jewish law? Laughs

[Joins in the laughter] I have no idea what a non-Jew would have made of Jewish customs. Jesus however was a Jew.

And as I keep saying, if Jesus had an argument about the way the Temple was run, his argument was with the Temple authorities who'd authorized it all, not with the traders who were there with all due permissions.

Where did you read that Jesus took to anyone with a whip?

John 2:15 And making a whip of cords, he drove them all, with the sheep and oxen, out of the temple.

No, don't thank me ─ glad to be of service.

Why do you think people do these things?

For complex reasons along the lines I've already outlined.

Why did we evolve with those traits? The last time I checked, they said we can trace heredity to ones grandparents -> their parents -> their parents ... You get the picture.

And each of your ancestors, way back to the first self-reproducing cell, lived long enough to replicate /breed. Our species evolved our traits, our methods of surviving, as gregarious primates, gaining benefits from cooperative living.

So when we look at people who kill their partners and their children, the question you put is a serious one, and deserves and receives serious study ─ reports of which I tend to read when I come across them.

It's not? Laughs
So you are saying, animals are human?

No, I'm saying all humans are animals, thus some animals are humans. It ain't rocket science.

 

[nPeace]

[Joins in the laughter] No, I mean that the traders in the Temple were carrying out traditional. customary and approved roles, which is why they were there in the first place.

Approved by corrupt Jewish leaders, carrying out customs condemned by Jewish laws.

[Joins in the laughter] I have no idea what a non-Jew would have made of Jewish customs. Jesus however was a Jew.

All you have to do, is read the Bible. It says what foreigners living among the Jews had to do.

And as I keep saying, if Jesus had an argument about the way the Temple was run, his argument was with the Temple authorities who'd authorized it all, not with the traders who were there with all due permissions.

Jesus did take up the argument with them... when they came up to him, demanding on what authority he was doing that.
He answered them.

John 2:15 And making a whip of cords, he drove them all, with the sheep and oxen, out of the temple.
No, don't thank me ─ glad to be of service.

Thanks. So nowhere did you read that Jesus took to anyone with a whip.

For complex reasons along the lines I've already outlined.

Yes, of course, but the question is how and why, what benefit to our survival and breeding as a species do we gain from these behaviors, and what is the role of our evolved endocrine systems in the way we act?

Huh?
You are just here to breed? Laughs

And each of your ancestors, way back to the first self-reproducing cell, lived long enough to replicate /breed. Our species evolved our traits, our methods of surviving, as gregarious primates, gaining benefits from cooperative living.

Extrapolated ideas are not swallowed by everyone.
Are you trying to force others to swallow what you have?

So when we look at people who kill their partners and their children, the question you put is a serious one, and deserves and receives serious study ─ reports of which I tend to read when I come across them.

Okay.

No, I'm saying all humans are animals, thus some animals are humans. It ain't rocket science.

...but you made a distinction, did you not? Was I mistaken?

 

[Scolopendra]

I don't think many people agree with you, otherwise Ted Bundy, and many others would have been in a mental institute, rather than dead, by execution.

Though, I do believe the mind is not "normal", most people think "Mental instability" always has physical explanations. I don't think so.

If you see living organisms as machines running programs a lack of empathy looks more like a bug in the code than an intentional act of evilness

 

[blü 2]

Approved by corrupt Jewish leaders, carrying out customs condemned by Jewish laws.

Where does history say the Temple authorities were corrupt?

And how does assaulting the traders change anything? As I keep pointing out to you, Jesus could achieve nothing but personal spite release with his assault ─ only the leaders could change anything. The moral of that Jesus story is, it's okay to bash someone if you're cranky enough. That's not my view.

All you have to do, is read the Bible. It says what foreigners living among the Jews had to do.

Where does it say that? How is it relevant anyway?

Thanks. So nowhere did you read that Jesus took to anyone with a whip.

Ah, sorry, my fault ─ I should have made it clear that when it says Jesus drove them out, it's not referring to his auto or truck ─ it's a usage from stock management meaning you apply the whip to the animals to get them to move where you want.

Huh?
You are just here to breed? Laughs

[Joins in the laughter] No, you're here to do anything you like, but the ONLY reason you're here is because ALL of your ancestors back to that first self-replicating cell successfully reproduced; and if humans don't, then there won't be any humans. THEREFORE one of the imperatives that results from evolution is, the next generation is made up mostly from the ones who bred best. You can see how natural selection works like that.

Extrapolated ideas are not swallowed by everyone.
Are you trying to force others to swallow what you have?

No, you don't have to understand science if you don't want to.

...but you made a distinction, did you not? Was I mistaken?

No, I said we're animals. I then elaborated at your request. At the end of it, we're still animals.

 

[Koldo]

You find?
Man... I don't know where you live... I guess that is a factor, but from the news alone, that's not what I am seeing.

However, you should have noticed, I didn't say parents.
I'm talking about what's happening to children and the treatment they are getting - not from parents alone.

I'll do some research on the overall facts, and get back to you.

When you say before, when are you thinking of?

Homicides of infants and young children are most often committed in the home, by parents/caregivers, using “weapons of opportunity”. This suggests that the risk of infant/child homicide is greatest within the primary care giving environment. Moreover, the use of “weapons of opportunity” may be indicative of maladaptive stress responses. Prevention and intervention strategies to reduce infant/child homicide should target the home environment and attend to maladaptive stress responses.

Homicide is the leading cause of infant deaths due to intentional injury in the US. In 2003, there were 717 reported homicides of children between zero and four years of age. The risk for homicide is greater in infancy than in any other year of childhood before the age of 15 years.
Imagine that.

The article says that prior research suggests the vast majority of perpetrators of infant or child homicide are female - most often the mother.

This is what is said in all data on child homicide. Not just the mother, though.
Children face the highest risk of homicide by parents and someone they know.

The risk for homicide is greater in infancy than in any other year of childhood before the age of 15 years.​

I wasn't thinking of homicide rates per se but rather the quality of life. Physical abuse and bullying were far more common decades ago than nowadays.

 

[stvdv]

When you say, "should be able to understand violence in some way", what do you mean? I don't understand. Can you explain please?

We can usually empathize better when we have gone through a similar (violent) situation

 

[F1fan]

I am referring to people in their right mind.
If you are referring to people with severe mental problems, I have already covered that here.

There are people with disorders that can function normally on medications. There are people who are by most assessments behave sanely and normally, but can make bad decisions when they face unusual stress in life and under the influence of something to help cope.

One dilemma of Christians is thinking in ideals that are not realistic. You refer to love as if it has some magic to it.

 

[nPeace]

Where does history say the Temple authorities were corrupt?

In that case, may I suggest you don't quote the Bible, if you don't think there is any history there, then. Just don't use the Bible when you think it convenient to do so, okay?

And how does assaulting the traders change anything? As I keep pointing out to you, Jesus could achieve nothing but personal spite release with his assault ─ only the leaders could change anything. The moral of that Jesus story is, it's okay to bash someone if you're cranky enough. That's not my view.

Jesus assaulted no one.
You didn't show that in the scriptures, remember.

Jesus cleansed the temple of those who were using it, for unholy purposes... according to the Gospels.
According to the Gospels, he had that authority.

Where does it say that?

(Exodus 12:49) One law will apply for the native and for the foreigner who is residing among you.”

How is it relevant anyway?

The foreigner knew the law of the Jews. Therefore, they were not guiltless.
You said... I have no idea what a non-Jew would have made of Jewish customs. Jesus however was a Jew.

Ah, sorry, my fault ─ I should have made it clear that when it says Jesus drove them out, it's not referring to his auto or truck ─ it's a usage from stock management meaning you apply the whip to the animals to get them to move where you want.

Ha Ha. Trucks is 1 AD?
More like mules, bulls, etc.
Yes, correct. The whip was used to drive the bulls out. The people fled... wisely.
Jesus took a whip to no one, as you asserted.

[Joins in the laughter] No, you're here to do anything you like, but the ONLY reason you're here is because ALL of your ancestors back to that first self-replicating cell successfully reproduced; and if humans don't, then there won't be any humans. THEREFORE one of the imperatives that results from evolution is, the next generation is made up mostly from the ones who bred best. You can see how natural selection works like that.

Funny... you believe that idea, though you never saw it, yet ask for proof of an invisible creator.

No, you don't have to understand science if you don't want to.

Call it science if you like.

No, I said we're animals. I then elaborated at your request. At the end of it, we're still animals.

You said... love is an important aspect of being human.
That's making a distinction, isn't it? You could easily have said, love is an important aspect of being "animal".
Why didn't you?

 

[nPeace]

I wasn't thinking of homicide rates per se but rather the quality of life. Physical abuse and bullying were far more common decades ago than nowadays.

Really? What year(s) do you have in mind, may I ask?

 

[nPeace]

There are people with disorders that can function normally on medications. There are people who are by most assessments behave sanely and normally, but can make bad decisions when they face unusual stress in life and under the influence of something to help cope.

One dilemma of Christians is thinking in ideals that are not realistic. You refer to love as if it has some magic to it.

I tam not sure we are communicating here.
Can you explain that last sentence, and how your first two statements are relevant to the discussion?
Thanks.

 

[blü 2]

In that case, may I suggest you don't quote the Bible, if you don't think there is any history there, then. Just don't use the Bible when you think it convenient to do so, okay?

So you just invented the part about the temple authorities being corrupt?

Okay. Noted.

Jesus assaulted no one. You didn't show that in the scriptures, remember.

I showed you the words in John which say Jesus made a whip and "drove" ─ used the whip ─ to drive the traders out. If you want to pretend to yourself that this means he didn't actually strike anyone, despite the clear wording to the contrary, well, I guess you're free to believe whatever you like.

Jesus cleansed the temple of those who were using it, for unholy purposes... according to the Gospels.

1. Jesus assaulted Temple traders lawfully going about their business.

2. This was simply a tantrum on Jesus' part. If he had an argument about the way the Temple was run, that argument was with the Temple authorities, not the traders. The Temple authorities could bring about change, the traders could not. Jesus' behavior was petulant past the point of foolish.

(Exodus 12:49) One law will apply for the native and for the foreigner who is residing among you.”

Thanks. Noted.

The foreigner knew the law of the Jews. Therefore, they were not guiltless.

Some foreigners would. Others would not.

You said... love is an important aspect of being human.
That's making a distinction, isn't it? You could easily have said, love is an important aspect of being "animal".
Why didn't you?

Because the animal that I am is H sap sap. If you wish to apply the word to other animals, in each case you'll need to define what aspects of their behaviors you intend it to refer to. In what sense would you say eg snakes, turtles, frogs, rats, crows, "love"?

 

[nPeace]

Because the animal that I am is H sap sap. If you wish to apply the word to other animals, in each case you'll need to define what aspects of their behaviors you intend it to refer to. In what sense would you say eg snakes, turtles, frogs, rats, crows, "love"?

Me? You're not forgetting what you said, are you?

You said...
Across the animal kingdom various kinds of bonding ─ love ─ are found. Some birds mate for life, for example. Humans bond for a period of years because young humans need five years growth or thereabouts ─ hence protection ─ before they have the beginnings of independence.

Bonding is a human biochemical reaction, taking different forms with partners, children, parents, kinfolk, social unit. Testosterone and estrogen are part of sexual arousal but also of bonding of sexual partners, along with oxytocin and others. Over all you could say we've evolved the biochemistry appropriate to surviving and breeding as gregarious primates. Emotionally it can be enormously satisfying, but of course it doesn't have to be and isn't always.

So now, I am confused.
You make a distinction. Yet you don't seem to want to admit any.
Or, maybe I am misunderstanding you. You'll have to clarify.
Do snakes, turtles, frogs, rats, crows, love... or not?

 

[blü 2]

Me? You're not forgetting what you said, are you?

You said...
Across the animal kingdom various kinds of bonding ─ love ─ are found. Some birds mate for life, for example. Humans bond for a period of years because young humans need five years growth or thereabouts ─ hence protection ─ before they have the beginnings of independence.

Bonding is a human biochemical reaction, taking different forms with partners, children, parents, kinfolk, social unit. Testosterone and estrogen are part of sexual arousal but also of bonding of sexual partners, along with oxytocin and others. Over all you could say we've evolved the biochemistry appropriate to surviving and breeding as gregarious primates. Emotionally it can be enormously satisfying, but of course it doesn't have to be and isn't always.

So now, I am confused.
You make a distinction. Yet you don't seem to want to admit any.
Or, maybe I am misunderstanding you. You'll have to clarify.
Do snakes, turtles, frogs, rats, crows, love... or not?

I'm not surprised you're confused.

You don't even know what 'drive' means.

 

[nPeace]

I'm not surprised you're confused.

You don't even know what 'drive' means.

Yeah. Blame me. LOL.

 

[blü 2]

Yeah. Blame me. LOL.

*chuckle*

 

[F1fan]

I tam not sure we are communicating here.
Can you explain that last sentence, and how your first two statements are relevant to the discussion?
Thanks.

Well your opening post is a prime example:

How can a father look at his 12 year old daughter, and shoot her to death?
Nev. Police Officer Fatally Shot Daughter, 12, and Injured Wife and Son Before Turning Gun on Himself

I would say, for starters, it's a lack of love.
What do you think? Why do people do things like this?​

To say "lack of love" for such an act is quite simplistic and inadequate. Obviously your ideas here are driven by your ideals of Christianity that all we need is love. As if it is that simple. It isn't. You are debating from an idealistic view from Christianity, and it just doesn't work against reality. This is a huge problem with the anti-choice people who want to eliminate abortion as a medical service for women. They are looking at this issue in an idealistic sense, and not at the broader set of realities that make abortion a sound option for women.