Why do we find ancient references to 8 people in a large boat in diverse cultures and languages

[shunyadragon]

Noah predates both. The basis of both, corrupted in the case of Gilgamesh

In any case Egyptologist Gavin Cox made a compelling case that
"A survey of standard Egyptian Encyclopedias and earliest mythology demonstrates Egyptian knowledge of Creation and the Flood consistent with the Genesis account."

There is no record of the Pentateuch prior to the Dead Sea Scrolls and a possible range of time of compilation ~1000- 700 BCE. The Hebrew language did not exist much before this. There is no Hebrew text prior to the Sumerian, Babylonian, nor Canaanite accounts

 

[Salvador]

View attachment 28807

It appears there is an ancient reference to 8 people on a large boat. And from there, early dynasties build on that. The 8 people morphed into an octet of gods

note image from Egyptologist Gavin Cox

The boat in this picture to me doesn't appear very large, a row boat the length of eight miniature people standing whom a giant person can lift is hardly of any significance relevant to anything else other than perhaps simple maritime mythology.

 

[shunyadragon]

If I missed this Christian Creation website rejects it

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CG/CG101.html

Claim CG101:
The Chinese glyph for ship is made up of pictographs for "vessel," "eight," and "mouth," indicating the eight passengers on Noah's ark.
Source:
Kang, C. H. and Ethel R. Nelson, 1979. The Discovery of Genesis, St. Louis, MO: Concordia Publishing House.
van Arnhem, Cees, 2002. The Genesis site: Chinese characters. Search | com.com
Response:

1. The Chinese character for boat (chuan 2) consists of the boat radical on the left and a phonetic element on the right. The phonetic element has two parts. The upper part is a primitive ideograph for "divide," though it looks the same as the character for "eight." The lower part is the pictograph for "mouth." However, these two elements have only phonetic significance (Wright 1996; Wright n.d.).
   
   
2. The "vessel" on the left side of the glyph is a pictograph of a dugout canoe, nothing like an ark.
   
   
3. According to the Bible, Noah's ark carried very many more than eight mouths.
   
   
4. No flood myths from China include an ark with eight passengers.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Short answer?

Because it really happened in some form.

Myth does not mean "not real."

Myth



Definitions 3 to 5 are overused, and commonly believed as the most important definition.

But the heart and soul of a myth is that it points to a larger truth. So what is it trying to teach us?

Myths are often based on real life events. But we know that there was nothing close to the flood in the Bible. Mankind was never threatened with extinction animal life was not threatened with extinction That some demand a child's view of the Bible be true is rather ridiculous.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The boat in this picture to me doesn't appear very large, a row boat the length of eight miniature people standing whom a giant person can lift is hardly of any significance relevant to anything else other than perhaps simple maritime mythology.

Only seven people on the boat and one giant beetle.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Now let us go to possibly the oldest of human scriptures, the RigVeda, going back to at least 6,000 BCE, and look for a similar expression.

"Aṣṭau putrāso aditerye jātāstanvas pari l devānupaprait saptabhiḥ parā mārtāṇḍamāsyat ll"
Eight are the Sons of Aditi who from her body sprang to life.
With seven she went to meet the Gods she cast Martanda far away.
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN LXXII. The Gods.

And the explanation: "A dawn of thirty days, as we measure days, implies a position so near the North Pole, that the period of sunshine at the place could not have been longer than about seven months, comprising, of course, a long day of four or five months, and a succession of regular days and nights during the remaining period; and we find that the RigVeda does preserve for us the memory of such months of sunshine. We refer first to the legend of Aditi, or the seven Âdityas (suns), which is obviously based on some natural phenomenon. This legend expressly tells us that the oldest number of Âdityas or suns was seven, and the same idea is independently found in many other places in the RigVeda."
"Arctic Home in Vedas", BG Tilak, Chapter VII - Months and Seasons.

The legend says the eighth, the not-fully formed sun, Martanda (Mrita anda = dead egg), who was cast away by Aditi, the God Mother, was used to create humankind which will be born and die. As for the boat, does not the sun row his boat across the sea of the sky (That is why 'Tarani' in Sanskrit, one who rows across is sun, and Triath in old Irish, Triton in Greek, and Thridi in old Norse relate to sea.

 

[sun rise]

Which cultures? Name them?

If you can come up with any that aren't direct cultural successors and predecessors of one another I'll be very surprised.

8 people is one thing. But the story of a flood is pretty universal List of flood myths - Wikipedia

• 1 Africa
• 2 Americas
  • 2.1 North America
  • 2.2 Mesoamerica
  • 2.3 South America
    • 2.3.1 Canari
    • 2.3.2 Inca
    • 2.3.3 Mapuche
    • 2.3.4 Muisca
    • 2.3.5 Tupi
• 3 Asia
  • 3.1 Ancient Near East
    • 3.1.1 Sumerian
    • 3.1.2 Mesopotamia
    • 3.1.3 Abrahamic religions
  • 3.2 China
  • 3.3 India
  • 3.4 Korea
  • 3.5 Malaysia
  • 3.6 Philippines
  • 3.7 Tai-Kadai people
• 4 Europe
  • 4.1 Classical Antiquity
  • 4.2 Medieval Europe
    • 4.2.1 Irish
    • 4.2.2 Welsh
    • 4.2.3 Norse
  • 4.3 Modern era folklore
    • 4.3.1 Finnish
• 5 Oceania
  • 5.1 Polynesia and Hawaii

 

[Subduction Zone]

Now let us go to possibly the oldest of human scriptures, the RigVeda, going back to at least 6,000 BCE, and look for a similar expression.

"Aṣṭau putrāso aditerye jātāstanvas pari l devānupaprait saptabhiḥ parā mārtāṇḍamāsyat ll"
Eight are the Sons of Aditi who from her body sprang to life.
With seven she went to meet the Gods she cast Martanda far away.
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN LXXII. The Gods.

And the explanation: "A dawn of thirty days, as we measure days, implies a position so near the North Pole, that the period of sunshine at the place could not have been longer than about seven months, comprising, of course, a long day of four or five months, and a succession of regular days and nights during the remaining period; and we find that the RigVeda does preserve for us the memory of such months of sunshine. We refer first to the legend of Aditi, or the seven Âdityas (suns), which is obviously based on some natural phenomenon. This legend expressly tells us that the oldest number of Âdityas or suns was seven, and the same idea is independently found in many other places in the RigVeda."

The legend says the eighth, the not-fully formed sun, Martanda (Mrita anda = dead egg), who was cast away by Aditi, the God Mother, was used to create humankind which will be born and die. As for the boat, does not the sun row his boat across the sea of the sky (That is why 'Tarani' in Sanskrit, one who rows across is sin, and Triath in old Irish, Triton in Greek, and Thridi in old Norse relate to sea.
"Arctic Home in Vedas", BG Tilak, Chapter VII - Months and Seasons.

You need a very strong source to make that claim. Though older than the Old Testament it is not thought to be nearly that old. If is more likely to have been written from 1,700 to 1,100 BC. That is about a thousand years older than the Old Testament. You may be making the same error that Christians make, that of treating "historical" parts of your holy book literally.

The Rig Veda - Wikisource, the free online library

 

[Jumi]

View attachment 28807

It appears there is an ancient reference to 8 people on a large boat. And from there, early dynasties build on that. The 8 people morphed into an octet of gods

note image from Egyptologist Gavin Cox

6 human-headed ones on that boat, one hawk headed one, and a large beetle. What does the Egyptian text say?

 

[amorphous_constellation]

The fact that the myth is so prevalent makes me wonder if there is a connection the last glacial melt, which would have probably walloped the human race right in the middle of the neolithic.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The fact that the myth is so prevalent makes me wonder if there is a connection the last glacial melt, which would have probably walloped the human race right in the middle of the neolithic.

The rise in sea level was never catastrophic. At that time man only had villages. Moving back from a rising sea slowly over the years would not have been a problem.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yeah it was not catastrophic. More catastrophic was the coming of ice-age which caused a lot of people to move to refugias. Ice-age actually caused the sea to recede, that is when humans crossed over to Americas. Avesta mentions a deluge by snow and Ahur Mazda warns King Yima (even the tops of hills will be covered by three cubits of snow, etc.), to make an enclosure and save the seeds of all living being and vegetation. Perhaps that is the origin of the deluge stories.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You need a very strong source to make that claim. Though older than the Old Testament it is not thought to be nearly that old. If is more likely to have been written from 1,700 to 1,100 BC. That is about a thousand years older than the Old Testament. You may be making the same error that Christians make, that of treating "historical" parts of your holy book literally.

I don't think I am making a mistake. The rise of sun on the day of vernal equinox in the asterism of Orion is mentioned repeatedly in RigVeda. The Aryans began their new year at that time. It is also mentions that in that age Sirius (Dog Star, Shwana) heralded coming of spring. That makes it from around 4,000 BC. There are references to an even earlier phase when the vernal equinox happened in the asterism of Castor and Pollux, although that reference is not very strong which would make the story even older. Hindus changed the beginning of their two-part year by three months, which would be necessitated in 6,000 years due to the precession of equinoxes. The concept that RigVeda is from 1,700 to 1.100 BCE was the first estimation by Indologists and hugely incorrect. The Vedas and Zorostrian Gathas/Yasna are older than that and both are from the same stock with same mythologies and language. Their mythologies have their parallels in all European mythologies, their language also is derived from the same stock as the European languages (PIE).

Old system: Devayana/Pitriyana, New system: Uttarayana/Dakshinayana.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I don't think I am making a mistake. The rise of sun on the day of vernal equinox in the asterism of Orion is mentioned repeatedly in RigVeda. The Aryans began their new year at that time. It is also mentions that in that age Sirius (Dog Star, Shwana) heralded coming of spring. That makes it from around 4,000 BC. There are references to an even earlier phase when the vernal equinox happened in the asterism of Castor and Pollux, although that reference is not very strong which would make the story even older. Hindus changed the beginning of their two-part year by three months, which would be necessitated in 6,000 years due to the precession of equinoxes. The concept that RigVeda is from 1,700 to 1.100 BCE was the first estimation by Indologists and hugely incorrect. The Vedas and Zorostrian Gathas/Yasna are older than that and both are from the same stock with same mythologies and language. Their mythologies have their parallels in all European mythologies, their language also is derived from the same stock as the European languages (PIE).

View attachment 28818 Old system: Devayana/Pitriyana, New system: Uttarayana/Dakshinayana.

You need something stronger than just your say so or a link to an apologist site.

In other words: Citation needed.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I have given no link. I have myself created the image to show the change of calendar by three months in Hindu time keeping necessitated by change in location of the people and precession of equinoxes.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I have given no link. I have myself created the image to show the change of calendar by three months in Hindu time keeping necessitated by change in location of the people and precession of equinoxes.

My point exactly.

 

[Audie]

I thought that was funny, but then, the notion of "eight men with cox" has a certain cachet for me...

Eight without.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

The fact that the myth is so prevalent makes me wonder if there is a connection the last glacial melt, which would have probably walloped the human race right in the middle of the neolithic.

The theory I like is that the Noah's Ark myth, and other Mediterranean variants thereof, are folk memory of the Black Sea inundation, retold and mythologised over thousands of years, although the theory has fallen from favour in recent years.

Black Sea deluge hypothesis - Wikipedia

Flood myth - Wikipedia

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

 

[shunyadragon]

Myths are often based on real life events. But we know that there was nothing close to the flood in the Bible. Mankind was never threatened with extinction animal life was not threatened with extinction That some demand a child's view of the Bible be true is rather ridiculous.

Literature and history before ~100 AD -~100 BC most often third party records contained myth, and personal interpretations and additions. After this mythology faded from the historical record, and first person historical accounts increased in all literate cultures of the world. Though many Roman official records (incomplete) are detailed and very accurate.

As far as accurate ancient historical records in general Chinese records are more accurate. For example, the catastrophic river flood 4,000 years ago is considered accurately recorded, described and dated in Chinese records, and supported by geologic and archaeological evidence. .