Why do you believe Jesus is the Messiah?

[jimb]

1) I believe the Bible should be taken seriously. That means understanding the rhetorical devices that would be used. Maybe it's trivial to you, but I think it's important to be aware of such things. Especially when such things are brought up.

2) The Bible does not say that only belief in the Messiah can save a person. The Old Testament, when it does speak about the Messiah, speaks about justice. Belief in the Messiah doesn't save anyone. The Messiah ushers in the justice of God. This was generally seen by overthrowing the Earthly Kingdom and setting up the Kingdom of God. Belief in the Messiah is never a requisite to enter this kingdom though.

In the New Testament, where the idea of the Messiah drastically changes, belief in the Messiah is never a must. No verse says, one must have a belief in the Messiah to be saved. Instead, we are told a very different thing.

John 6:40 tells us that everyone who looks at the "SON" and believes in him (the Son) shall have eternal life. John 6:40 is really reiterating John 3:16, which also makes the argument that God gave his "SON" and who ever believe in him "the Son" shall have eternal life. John 14:6 makes a similar claim, that one only gets to the father through the son, through Jesus, who is the way, the truth and the light. Jesus never claims to be the Messiah. What we see instead is time and time again him being referred to, and him referring as himself, as the Son of God.

Now, others may have said that he was the Messiah, but Jesus doesn't make that claim, and as I explained in my first response, when it comes to Messianic prophecy, he fails. The one expectation of the Messiah was that they would free the Jewish people from subjugation. That they would free the Jewish people from the Kingdom of Earth and usher in the Kingdom of God. Jesus never does this. In order to claim Jesus is the Messiah, you have to create a new idea of what the Messiah is. And I don't think that is necessary as Jesus himself never claims to be the Messiah.

So no, belief in the Messiah is not necessary to be saved, nor does the Bible state such.

Read your Bible more carefully, then we can continue this discussion.

John 3:16-18, "For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 The one who believes in him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God."

John 6:37-40, "Everyone whom the Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will never send away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me. Now this is the will of the one who sent me—that I should not lose one person of every one he has given me, but raise them all up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father—for everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him to have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

 

[amatuerscholar]

Read your Bible more carefully, then we can continue this discussion.

John 3:16-18, "For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 The one who believes in him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God."

John 6:37-40, "Everyone whom the Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will never send away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me. Now this is the will of the one who sent me—that I should not lose one person of every one he has given me, but raise them all up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father—for everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him to have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

So where do those say you have to believe in the Messiah? Jesus is stating, as I already pointed out, that you come to the father through the Son. Not through the Messiah. Jesus never claims to be the Messiah.

Maybe read what I said first, because I already explained this.

 

[jimb]

So where do those say you have to believe in the Messiah? Jesus is stating, as I already pointed out, that you come to the father through the Son. Not through the Messiah. Jesus never claims to be the Messiah.

Maybe read what I said first, because I already explained this.

Are you serious? Read this carefully: Jesus is the Messiah. Matthew's gospel alone says so 12 times! A single example..

Matthew 13:16-17, Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God" And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but my Father in heaven".

If you're that clueless, why should I waste my time reading your posts?

 

[amatuerscholar]

Are you serious? Read this carefully: Jesus is the Messiah. Matthew's gospel alone says so 12 times! A single example..

Matthew 13:16-17, Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God" And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but my Father in heaven".

If you're that clueless, why should I waste my time reading your posts?

Jesus never states he's the Messiah. I've already presented an argument as to why he's not the Messiah, as per Jewish thought. If one wants to believe he's the Messiah, then one has to create a new definition of what the Messiah is. If you want to do that, fine, but just be aware it's not the Jewish Messiah.

I don't believe Jesus is the Messiah. I don't think it's necessary to see him as the Messiah. Whether it is or is not is a matter of faith. And you don't get to define my faith because you've taken one position.

I also don't accept the idea one can only be saved by accepting Jesus. That is a very inclusive view, and I think any loving God would reject that idea. I instead take a pluralistic view, as I believe a loving God doesn't care what path you'd take to get to God, as long as you get there.

 

[jimb]

Jesus never states he's the Messiah. I've already presented an argument as to why he's not the Messiah, as per Jewish thought. If one wants to believe he's the Messiah, then one has to create a new definition of what the Messiah is. If you want to do that, fine, but just be aware it's not the Jewish Messiah.

I don't believe Jesus is the Messiah. I don't think it's necessary to see him as the Messiah. Whether it is or is not is a matter of faith. And you don't get to define my faith because you've taken one position.

I also don't accept the idea one can only be saved by accepting Jesus. That is a very inclusive view, and I think any loving God would reject that idea. I instead take a pluralistic view, as I believe a loving God doesn't care what path you'd take to get to God, as long as you get there.

a) Jesus, a.k.a., Yeshua is the Messiah. It doesn't matter if you accept that or not.

b) He is the Messiah of all people, Jews and Gentiles.

c) You don't get to define my faith.

 

[jimb]

Jesus never states he's the Messiah. I've already presented an argument as to why he's not the Messiah, as per Jewish thought. If one wants to believe he's the Messiah, then one has to create a new definition of what the Messiah is. If you want to do that, fine, but just be aware it's not the Jewish Messiah.

I don't believe Jesus is the Messiah. I don't think it's necessary to see him as the Messiah. Whether it is or is not is a matter of faith. And you don't get to define my faith because you've taken one position.

I also don't accept the idea one can only be saved by accepting Jesus. That is a very inclusive view, and I think any loving God would reject that idea. I instead take a pluralistic view, as I believe a loving God doesn't care what path you'd take to get to God, as long as you get there.

a) Jesus, a.k.a., Yeshua is the Messiah. It doesn't matter if you accept that or not.

b) He is the Messiah of all people, Jews and Gentiles.

c) You don't get to define my faith.

d) So you don't accept that a person can only be saved by accepting Yeshua as their Savior. So what? You think you know the mind of God, which I would define as chutzpah. I believe what the Bible clearly says, as do billions of people. It clearly says that Jesus is the Messiah and that you must accept the fact that He died for your sins in order to be saved and have eternal life.

e) What you think doesn't matter.

 

[amatuerscholar]

a) Jesus, a.k.a., Yeshua is the Messiah. It doesn't matter if you accept that or not.

That's a statement of faith, not a statement of fact. I explained why Jesus fails as the Messiah as per Jewish ideology. Now, if based on your own faith, you want to create a new definition for Messiah, that's all find and dandy. But you can't expect others to simply accept that definition.

b) He is the Messiah of all people, Jews and Gentiles.

That's a statement of faith, not fact. I already explained why Jesus failed when it came to the idea of the Messiah.

c) You don't get to define my faith.

You're doing what's called parroting. The fact is, I'm not trying to define your faith. But you're demanding that your faith takes center stage and we must accept it, even though you've given us no reason to.

d) So you don't accept that a person can only be saved by accepting Yeshua as their Savior. So what? You think you know the mind of God, which I would define as chutzpah. I believe what the Bible clearly says, as do billions of people. It clearly says that Jesus is the Messiah and that you must accept the fact that He died for your sins in order to be saved and have eternal life.

I don't think I know the mind of God. I'm not the one who is making definitive claims. If we look at the Old Testament, we see salvation in a variety of other ways. Yet, you want to state that only your view of salvation is the right one, and everyone else isn't saved. You're making a definitive claim here, not me.

You believe what you think the Bible says based on your own interpretation. Billions of people may also do that, but that's a really bad appeal. Especially when many of those people see the Bible differently from you. Does that mean we take their interpretation over yours since they are also just taking what the "Bible clearly says?" Again, the Old Testament gives other options for salvation. And one can debate whether Jesus was the Messiah or not, and if one understand Messianic ideology, it's clear that he failed. But even beyond all of that, Jesus didn't think it was ever important enough to even claim to the be Messiah. He focused on him being the Son of God.

e) What you think doesn't matter.

One could say the same about you. But here's the thing. You're in a debate here. If you don't care what the other side is saying, maybe don't debate. It's really that simple.

 

[jimb]

That's a statement of faith, not a statement of fact. I explained why Jesus fails as the Messiah as per Jewish ideology. Now, if based on your own faith, you want to create a new definition for Messiah, that's all find and dandy. But you can't expect others to simply accept that definition.
That's a statement of faith, not fact. I already explained why Jesus failed when it came to the idea of the Messiah.

You're doing what's called parroting. The fact is, I'm not trying to define your faith. But you're demanding that your faith takes center stage and we must accept it, even though you've given us no reason to.


I don't think I know the mind of God. I'm not the one who is making definitive claims. If we look at the Old Testament, we see salvation in a variety of other ways. Yet, you want to state that only your view of salvation is the right one, and everyone else isn't saved. You're making a definitive claim here, not me.

You believe what you think the Bible says based on your own interpretation. Billions of people may also do that, but that's a really bad appeal. Especially when many of those people see the Bible differently from you. Does that mean we take their interpretation over yours since they are also just taking what the "Bible clearly says?" Again, the Old Testament gives other options for salvation. And one can debate whether Jesus was the Messiah or not, and if one understand Messianic ideology, it's clear that he failed. But even beyond all of that, Jesus didn't think it was ever important enough to even claim to the be Messiah. He focused on him being the Son of God.

One could say the same about you. But here's the thing. You're in a debate here. If you don't care what the other side is saying, maybe don't debate. It's really that simple.

a) You're making statements of faith as though they are factual. It's simply your opinion that Jesus failed as Messiah. That is your faith.

b) I have given you statements, which you reject. Why should I accept your opinion? You have failed to prove that Jesus is not the Messiah

c) Why should anyone take your opinion of what the Bible says? Every author of the Bible "books" (both testaments) was a Jew (Luke being the sole exception) and all the first disciples were Jews. I believe all of them over your opinion.

d) Your statement that "one can debate whether Jesus was the Messiah" is about the only accurate statement you have made. Then you immediately make the contradictory declarative statement, saying "it's clear that He failed".

e) Jesus said that He was/is the Son of God and never corrected those who called Him the Messiah.

f) If you don't care what others are saying and make declarative statements as though they can't be challenged, why are you here? You have nothing more than opinions and billions of people disagree with you.

g) You remind me of the Pharisees who invented all kinds of arguments to trap Jesus. They couldn't prove that He wasn't the Messiah, and that He wasn't God's Son. And neither can you!

 

[jimb]

Did Moses exist? Is the torah God's word? Does YHWH exist? Are the Jews God's chosen people?

CAN YOU PROVE THAT JESUS IS NOT THE MESSIAH?

Can you prove any of the above?

 

[amatuerscholar]

a) You're making statements of faith as though they are factual. It's simply your opinion that Jesus failed as Messiah. That is your faith.

It's not a matter of opinion. Based on Jewish expectations of the Messiah, their own ideology, Jesus failed. Jesus did not accomplish the one thing the Messiah was supposed to do, which was to free the Jewish people from subjugation. After the death of Jesus, things got worse for the Jews, not better. So no, me stating Jesus failed as the Messiah is not an opinion.

Again, if you want Jesus to be the Messiah, you have to create a new definition, one that differs from the Jewish definition.

b) I have given you statements, which you reject. Why should I accept your opinion? You have failed to prove that Jesus is not the Messiah

You've stated your faith, your opinion. I have shown Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah. He died, and didn't do the one thing expected of the Messiah, to free the Jews.

c) Why should anyone take your opinion of what the Bible says? Every author of the Bible "books" (both testaments) was a Jew (Luke being the sole exception) and all the first disciples were Jews. I believe all of them over your opinion.

Do Jews think Jesus is the Messiah? No. Why not? Because he didn't fulfill Messianic prophecy. That's not my opinion, that's the truth.

d) Your statement that "one can debate whether Jesus was the Messiah" is about the only accurate statement you have made. Then you immediately make the contradictory declarative statement, saying "it's clear that He failed".

We are debating if he was the Messiah aren't we? I think so. My view is that he failed. I showed why he failed. I showed why he did not fulfill Messianic prophecy. Now, if a debate is to progress, the other side, which is you here, needs to offer a rebuttal. You need to show why Jesus is the Messiah. How did he fulfill actual Messianic prophecy?

e) Jesus said that He was/is the Son of God and never corrected those who called Him the Messiah.

People called Jesus a lot of things that he never corrected. He never claimed to be the Messiah, and he failed to fulfill the one Messianic prophecy that mattered.

f) If you don't care what others are saying and make declarative statements as though they can't be challenged, why are you here? You have nothing more than opinions and billions of people disagree with you.

I'm interested in what you have to say. That's why I'm imploring you to make a real argument instead of just going personal all of the time. That's why I'm addressing what you are saying, and offering rebuttals. I'm not going to simply say, oh yeah you're right just because you have a differing view. For me to accept your view, as in any debate, you have to show that it is a more probable view than my own. I claim Jesus was not the Messiah because he failed to fulfill Messianic prophecy, and did not free the Jews. You've offered me no reason to doubt that declarative statement.

And lets be clear, I did give a number of opinions, just to show that the view that you were demanding was not the only view that was possible. You seem to think your view is the only one, but the fact is, there are many of other views. And making the false claim that billions disagree with me doesn't help you anywhere, as many Christians take the same position that I do.

g) You remind me of the Pharisees who invented all kinds of arguments to trap Jesus. They couldn't prove that He wasn't the Messiah, and that He wasn't God's Son. And neither can you!

I'm not attempting to prove Jesus wasn't the son of God. I'm in fact saying that is what was important. And just to be clear, Paul was a Pharisee, and many have thought Jesus was probably a Pharisee as well, so I'm in good company.

Did Moses exist? Is the torah God's word? Does YHWH exist? Are the Jews God's chosen people?

CAN YOU PROVE THAT JESUS IS NOT THE MESSIAH?

Can you prove any of the above?

Moses probably didn't exist. There is no evidence he existed outside of the Bible (the claims he made simply are not supported by the historical record. The Torah, the first 5 books of the Bible, may be inspired by God. That's a statement of faith at best though as one can not prove God exists, thus the claim the Bible is God's word is faith based. Does God exist? I believe so, but again, that's a statement of faith, as would be saying that the Jews are God's chosen people. All of that is faith based.

Me saying Jesus is not the Messiah though is based on what the Jewish Messianic ideology says.

 

[jimb]

It's not a matter of opinion. Based on Jewish expectations of the Messiah, their own ideology, Jesus failed. Jesus did not accomplish the one thing the Messiah was supposed to do, which was to free the Jewish people from subjugation. After the death of Jesus, things got worse for the Jews, not better. So no, me stating Jesus failed as the Messiah is not an opinion.

Again, if you want Jesus to be the Messiah, you have to create a new definition, one that differs from the Jewish definition.
You've stated your faith, your opinion. I have shown Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah. He died, and didn't do the one thing expected of the Messiah, to free the Jews.
Do Jews think Jesus is the Messiah? No. Why not? Because he didn't fulfill Messianic prophecy. That's not my opinion, that's the truth.

We are debating if he was the Messiah aren't we? I think so. My view is that he failed. I showed why he failed. I showed why he did not fulfill Messianic prophecy. Now, if a debate is to progress, the other side, which is you here, needs to offer a rebuttal. You need to show why Jesus is the Messiah. How did he fulfill actual Messianic prophecy?
People called Jesus a lot of things that he never corrected. He never claimed to be the Messiah, and he failed to fulfill the one Messianic prophecy that mattered.

I'm interested in what you have to say. That's why I'm imploring you to make a real argument instead of just going personal all of the time. That's why I'm addressing what you are saying, and offering rebuttals. I'm not going to simply say, oh yeah you're right just because you have a differing view. For me to accept your view, as in any debate, you have to show that it is a more probable view than my own. I claim Jesus was not the Messiah because he failed to fulfill Messianic prophecy, and did not free the Jews. You've offered me no reason to doubt that declarative statement.

And lets be clear, I did give a number of opinions, just to show that the view that you were demanding was not the only view that was possible. You seem to think your view is the only one, but the fact is, there are many of other views. And making the false claim that billions disagree with me doesn't help you anywhere, as many Christians take the same position that I do.
I'm not attempting to prove Jesus wasn't the son of God. I'm in fact saying that is what was important. And just to be clear, Paul was a Pharisee, and many have thought Jesus was probably a Pharisee as well, so I'm in good company.

Moses probably didn't exist. There is no evidence he existed outside of the Bible (the claims he made simply are not supported by the historical record. The Torah, the first 5 books of the Bible, may be inspired by God. That's a statement of faith at best though as one can not prove God exists, thus the claim the Bible is God's word is faith based. Does God exist? I believe so, but again, that's a statement of faith, as would be saying that the Jews are God's chosen people. All of that is faith based.

Me saying Jesus is not the Messiah though is based on what the Jewish Messianic ideology says.

You are NOT interested in what I have to say.

Your second to last paragraph says it all. As long as you state your opinions as facts, there is nothing more to discuss.

You are denying the Jewish Messiah!

 

[amatuerscholar]

You are NOT interested in what I have to say.

Your final paragraph says it all. As long as you state your opinions as facts, there is nothing more to discuss.

You are denying the Jewish Messiah!

I think what it comes down to is that you can't actually form a real rebuttal, and instead have to say I'm the problem.

I clearly separate when I'm talking about my opinion, and when I'm stating something is a fact.

And yes, I'm denying Jesus is the Jewish Messiah because he didn't fulfill Messianic prophecy. The fact that you can't provide a counter to this, an explanation as to why Jesus in fact did fulfill such prophecy, means I have absolutely no reason to take what you say here as a real rebuttal, or as a legitimate challenge. You've give me no reason to challenge my own view.

 

[jimb]

I think what it comes down to is that you can't actually form a real rebuttal, and instead have to say I'm the problem.

I clearly separate when I'm talking about my opinion, and when I'm stating something is a fact.

And yes, I'm denying Jesus is the Jewish Messiah because he didn't fulfill Messianic prophecy. The fact that you can't provide a counter to this, an explanation as to why Jesus in fact did fulfill such prophecy, means I have absolutely no reason to take what you say here as a real rebuttal, or as a legitimate challenge. You've give me no reason to challenge my own view.

You THINK that Yeshua isn't the Jewish Messiah. So, since you are in denial, there is no point discussing anything with you. You have swallowed Jewish ideology 100%, stating it as truth. It isn't!

Read John 8:31-47. Then, after you can show that you've read it, we can continue this discussion. Otherwise I don't want to read any more of your posts.

Also, read Hebrews 11:1 and you might learn about what faith really is. In fact, read the entire chapter!

 

[amatuerscholar]

You THINK that Yeshua isn't the Jewish Messiah. So, since you are in denial, there is no point discussing anything with you. You have swallowed Jewish ideology 100%, stating it as truth. It isn't!

Read John 8:31-47. Then, after you can show that you've read it, we can continue this discussion. Otherwise I don't want to read any more of your posts.

I don't think Jesus is the Jewish Messiah and stated very clearly why. You've given no actual rebuttal, and instead have been exceptionally judgmental, which both Jesus and Paul tells us is not our position. If you want me to reconsider my idea, offer a rebuttal. That's how debates work.

And no, John 8 doesn't equate to them being set free. Because being set free, as per Messianic prophecy, was clear. It was being set free from the Kingdom of Earth (meaning Rome in this place and time) and for the Kingdom of God to replace it. So that Jews were no longer be subjugated by some other power.

 

[jimb]

I don't think Jesus is the Jewish Messiah and stated very clearly why. You've given no actual rebuttal, and instead have been exceptionally judgmental, which both Jesus and Paul tells us is not our position. If you want me to reconsider my idea, offer a rebuttal. That's how debates work.

And no, John 8 doesn't equate to them being set free. Because being set free, as per Messianic prophecy, was clear. It was being set free from the Kingdom of Earth (meaning Rome in this place and time) and for the Kingdom of God to replace it. So that Jews were no longer be subjugated by some other power.

You think that you have the answers, but clearly you do not.

You don't think that Jesus is the Messiah. I know that Jesus is the Messiah.

You want to play games, as in "offer a rebuttal", and then follow it with "Jesus and Paul tell us is not our position". If you respect Jesus and/or Paul you would KNOW that Jesus is the Messiah. So, I don't believe you.

And you claim to be able to interpret the New Testament! You haven't a clue what it means! If you did you would know that Jesus is the Messiah!

You want to debate what is the truth, just like the Pharisees. And, like them, you have no understanding of the truth!

And you claim to be able to interpret John's gospel! What a joke! You have no understanding of God's truth, so you are incapable of understanding, not only his gospel, but also the truth.

In John 14:6. Jesus says "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." There it is: the absolute truth!

I hope that you will gain some understanding but I have my doubts. Clearly, your mind is closed.

 

[amatuerscholar]

You think that you have the answers, but clearly you do not.

You don't think that Jesus is the Messiah. I know that Jesus is the Messiah.

You want to play games, as in "offer a rebuttal", and then follow it with "Jesus and Paul tell us is not our position". If you respect Jesus and/or Paul you would KNOW that Jesus is the Messiah. So, I don't believe you.

And you claim to be able to interpret the New Testament! You haven't a clue what it means! If you did you would know that Jesus is the Messiah!

You want to debate what is the truth, just like the Pharisees. And, like them, you have no understanding of the truth!

And you claim to be able to interpret John's gospel! What a joke! You have no understanding of God's truth, so you are incapable of understanding, not only his gospel, but also the truth.

In John 14:6. Jesus says "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." There it is: the absolute truth!

I hope that you will gain some understanding but I have my doubts. Clearly, your mind is closed.

Try again. If you start your response with an insult, don't expect someone to read the rest of what you have to say.

If you have a rebuttal, I'm happy to hear it and have a conversation with you. But you'll need to repost it without the judgement and negativity. If all you have is the latter, then I won't waste my time. Good day.

 

[jimb]

Try again. If you start your response with an insult, don't expect someone to read the rest of what you have to say.

If you have a rebuttal, I'm happy to hear it and have a conversation with you. But you'll need to repost it without the judgement and negativity. If all you have is the latter, then I won't waste my time. Good day.

If YOU start YOUR response with an insult, don't expect me to read the rest of your message.

Jesus is the Savior of all people, Jews and Gentiles. Deal with it!

 

[walt]

Jesus is the Savior of all people, Jews and Gentiles.

Hello my friend, how have you been doing? If there is anything I can do, please let me know, all you have ti do is ask, thanks for our conversations.

I love Jesus more then I can express with words, I agree with you Jesus is my Savior and His words are my everything.

 

[amatuerscholar]

If YOU start YOUR response with an insult, don't expect me to read the rest of your message.

Jesus is the Savior of all people, Jews and Gentiles. Deal with it!

Where have I insulted you? You've been needlessly aggressive while refusing to offer a real rebuttal. Is this forum just trying to show people why they should avoid Christianity?

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Is this forum just trying to show people why they should avoid Christianity?

So much for 1 Peter 3:15-16, huh? When I was a Christian evangelist and street preacher, I had to remind other Christians of these verses whenever they treated others (non-Christians and fellow Christians alike) with contempt. I reminded them about how they are called to be ambassadors for Christ, how they are to be the salt and light of the world, and the biblical commands to "love your neighbor as yourself" and "treat others the way you would like to be treated." It was evident by their continual misbehavior that they didn't love their enemies as they were commanded to do so. They did not turn the other cheek. Nevertheless, they lacked the humility to admit that their rude behavior was severely tainting their Christian witness and damaging their personal reputation. I remember thinking how badly they tainted the name of Jesus by their stubbornly obnoxious and hypocritical judgmental behavior towards non-Christians, as well as other Christians who followed different doctrinal beliefs and biblical interpretations. To be honest, I've witnessed the same kind of obnoxious behavior and self-righteousness among Christians on this forum, and what I've seen makes me feel relieved that I'm no longer a Christian.