Why do you do this?

[Caladan]

Do you see it as a chance to learn and to teach?

Not to learn and teach per se. Let's be honest, this is still an internet forum intended for lay people. It doesn't mean that there aren't informative members who are motivated to make the best of it, just that this shouldn't function as a primary education source about world religion.

Or is it something else?

For me this forum is a chance to discuss world religion with people from different regions, who hold different POVs. When answering this potential the forum can be very enjoyable, however obviously some people had something else in mind when they clicked join 'Religions Education Forum'. They didn't come to discuss comparative religion or for constructive historical or religion related debates, instead they came to repeat their beliefs while shutting themselves from any no strings attached discussion for the sake of learning new things or getting a fresh perspective.
Personally, I find it pretty sad that even the internet... a place in the outer realms of 'real life' has such a grip over people that even in a potentially neutral place like this they enforce this kind of inane environment.

At the end of the day members from all philosophies, whether generically religious or generically secular fall to patterns of preaching and common ignorance. However there is no shortage of members who actually do come to enjoy what the forum can offer in terms of discussing world religion in history and contemporary times without the delusion that they are going to change the world in a swift on line crusade. If anything, this is a chance for us to put down our rocks and swords and discuss as civilized human beings.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

On such a large forum as this, it seems pantheism is the best belief system. That way, you won't offend someone, or better yet, you may be liked.

Heh... if you think pantheists can never offend anyone, just wait until you've been here a bit longer.

 

[Levite]

I guess this is something that I still need to understand: what would atheist fundamentalism be like and how come people swear to have found it in existence.

Fundamentalism is essentially an absolutist and exclusivist position, combined with an aggressive tendency to proselytize that position, and to deride the positions of others.

In other words, a belief that one is absolutely right, that all other positions are wrong, and an aggressive willingness to try and change other people's minds to conform with one's own "right" belief, and to insult and demean those who do not agree.

This attitude is found in religious extremists and in atheist extremists. It is not about belief in God, but about extremism.

 

[LuisDantas]

Alright, let me walk you through it.

Sorry, Crossfire. Your intention is good, but also misguided.

In respect to you, I must state once again in no unclear terms that I refuse this judgement of yours as unfair and ill-informed.

Please follow your own advice and reflect on your own stance for a while.

I would advise you to stop attempting to over-rule my own opinion about my own mental states, at least in this specific case and for a while.

You have so far failed to convince me that you understand what you are talking about, and it seems counter-productive to attempt to go further until and unless that prerequisite is fulfilled.

All the best to you, my friend.

 

[LuisDantas]

Fundamentalism is essentially an absolutist and exclusivist position, combined with an aggressive tendency to proselytize that position, and to deride the positions of others.

In other words, a belief that one is absolutely right, that all other positions are wrong, and an aggressive willingness to try and change other people's minds to conform with one's own "right" belief, and to insult and demean those who do not agree.

Pretty much.

This attitude is found in religious extremists and in atheist extremists. It is not about belief in God, but about extremism.

Levite, since I will not and can not agree, I invite you to join us in Penguin's thread. Maybe we can work out how and why you say such a thing.

 

[sindex.1983]

I see this as a chance for Odyssey - the chance to explore other peoples' viewpoints than my own, and, if in the process, my own views become enhanced by my presence here, then all the better!

Also, it's a good place to express opinions to other minds who will actually pay it some attention and respond with their views... And that's very satisfying, especially in a world of people who lack imagination and interest in most anything besides TV, sports, politics, sex, etc.

Just my opinion though, food for thought, hope you enjoy

 

[HiddenHijabi]

For me my intention is, and was when I signed up, to discuss a topic which interests me a lot, namely religion with others willing to do so.

 

[crossfire]

Sorry, Crossfire. Your intention is good, but also misguided.

In respect to you, I must state once again in no unclear terms that I refuse this judgement of yours as unfair and ill-informed.

Please follow your own advice and reflect on your own stance for a while.

I would advise you to stop attempting to over-rule my own opinion about my own mental states, at least in this specific case and for a while.

You have so far failed to convince me that you understand what you are talking about, and it seems counter-productive to attempt to go further until and unless that prerequisite is fulfilled.

All the best to you, my friend.

Let me ask you this: is makyo dependent upon deity belief or lack thereof?

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

In another thread I made the comment that quite often inter-faith dialogue ends up as a platform to chastise and prove people wrong. To me, it should be an opportunity to learn about other religions, teach about your own, and to make a real effort to understand how your neighbor relates to God and to the world.

So, why do you come here and do this?

Do you see it as chance to attack religions you see as being wrong and act as a champion of your faith?
Do you see it as a chance to proselytize?
Do you see it as a chance to learn and to teach?
Or is it something else?

I have also asked the same question.

The replies I have received go along the lines of:

"People reading this thread deserve an 'alternative opinion' to the one that is being currently represented by your faith/school/teachings, so I am just giving any 'discerning readers' that ability to 'discern".

It has happened to me a few times, whenever I have asked; 'why must you always be so disagreeable? What have I said or done to deserve this?".

Then, the answer comes; 'stop thinking this is all about you and move on'.

I put this in the same basket as when a person directly insults/disrespects me, to which I take issue, then get told "I am only kidding...can't you take a joke?"

I respond with; "I am not laughing and if that was 'sposed to be humorous, I am still waiting for the punchline."

If I had of said nothing, would they still be 'only kidding'?

It's like them saying this, gives them an excuse to just keep on doing it.

This is an aspect of human behaviour I will never understand either and it is torture to an Aspies sufferer...I wish people would stop doing this, so human behaviour would have some kind of 'consistency' that I can relate to.

 

[Asha]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarheeler
In another thread I made the comment that quite often inter-faith dialogue ends up as a platform to chastise and prove people wrong. To me, it should be an opportunity to learn about other religions, teach about your own, and to make a real effort to understand how your neighbor relates to God and to the world.

So, why do you come here and do this?

Do you see it as chance to attack religions you see as being wrong and act as a champion of your faith?
Do you see it as a chance to proselytize?
Do you see it as a chance to learn and to teach?
Or is it something else?

I have also asked the same question.

The replies I have received go along the lines of:

"People reading this thread deserve an 'alternative opinion' to the one that is being currently represented by your faith/school/teachings, so I am just giving any 'discerning readers' that ability to 'discern".

It has happened to me a few times, whenever I have asked; 'why must you always be so disagreeable? What have I said or done to deserve this?".

Then, the answer comes; 'stop thinking this is all about you and move on'.

I put this in the same basket as when a person directly insults/disrespects me, to which I take issue, then get told "I am only kidding...can't you take a joke?"

I respond with; "I am not laughing and if that was 'sposed to be humorous, I am still waiting for the punchline."

If I had of said nothing, would they still be 'only kidding'?

It's like them saying this, gives them an excuse to just keep on doing it.

This is an aspect of human behaviour I will never understand either and it is torture to an Aspies sufferer...I wish people would stop doing this, so human behaviour would have some kind of 'consistency' that I can relate to.

This says a lot about our ability to listen and to allow others the grace to have their own opinions .

I have been reading here for a couple of months and many times I have witnessed a poster trying his best to sincerely answer a question, this poster does not take offence at another his attitude is that this is my opinion only,this poster tries to discuss and reason.
Another type of poster will speak in a more personal manner he says ''this is my opinion'' but he means ''and chalenge me if you dare''.

we could make life easier for ourselves by remembering that we are only human beings and we are failiable we are in ignorance and are all attempting to learn.
The elders amongst us are aware through experience that there is still so much to learn, then there are youngsters who naturaly think that they know it all, that is just a symptom of youth, it is natural.

So why are we surprised ?

This is an aspect of human behaviour I will never understand either and it is torture to an Aspies sufferer...I wish people would stop doing this, so human behaviour would have some kind of 'consistency' that I can relate to.

I forget who said it probably it has been said time and time again, but how can any of us ever hope to understand eachother unless we first learn to understand ourselves ?

If we examine our own nature we will understand how and why others behave as they do without the need to be surprised at everything. Then the world becomes less painfull.

I think it is safe to say that ignorance on the whole will not change very quickly so we need to change our expectations of others.
I am sure no one wishes to torture you people are all just fighting to have their say and we will all find ourselves doing exactly this at some point in a conversation.

I have read so much here that I could take offence at, but what is the point ? what is to be acheived ?

Thus it is said that tolerance/patience is a virtue

so what better way to converse with each other than in the spirit of freindship and tolerance.

ok, sure people want to champion their faiths but there are ways of doing this without treading on eachothers toes, we all need to be sencitive to this. When we are talking about facts we can be a little more strident about it, but talking about faith requires a gentler aproach.

yes ? no ?

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

I agree with you about being sensitive and tolerant. I always try to be.

I don't understand how I can understand others by understanding myself though. This makes no sense to me.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Understanding oneself will mean to be cognizant of our own biases. When we know our biases, we can evade them to know another person better.

 

[Asha]

I agree with you about being sensitive and tolerant. I always try to be.

I don't understand how I can understand others by understanding myself though. This makes no sense to me.

As human beings we all have the same basic tendencies, the only difference is that we all learn to respond differently.
Sometimes it is cultural conditioning that makes us the way we are and sometimes it is just our personal nature, and sometimes it is a combination of them both.so as soon as we begin to realise that we are not realy so different, as soon as we recognise our own tendancies then we will see the same in others.
It is only on the surface that we are culturaly different deep down we are very much more similar than we think.

It all starts with the fact that we are embodied beings, as soon as we are born we develop a strong sense of self and other, so from day one we are craving fulfilment in one sense or another.
Although you and I are very different people with very different qualities we still have common desires. Basic comfort and the friendship of others, we come here to discuss, why ? because we are social animals we like to find likeminded company and we like to be appreciated in some small way.

Even the ones who say that they have come here to learn and to teach, however humble or altruistic they are there is still a little side in all human beings that likes to be appreciated so when our views are not appreciated we feel just a little disappointed, it is only natural, so what ever feelings you have you can be sure that others experience the same feelings too.

So to me what I am seeing as fundamentalism is an extreme, an extreme in the sence of self and ones own culture, ones own conditioning. We need to look past this attitude of a strong self and a strong culture, also strong opinion it is realy dangerous it isolates people and makes them angry and inflexable, we need to take more time listen more often .

So here on these kind of sites many people are wanting to express their opinions, every one is wanting to be heard and appreciated to some extent and because the views are different there will be conflicts, we just need to understand that even though the views may differ we all have the same basic needs and wishes.
When we do not have our needs fulfilled we get tetchy and argumentative or we miss read what is being said, we misinterpret one another and make false judgements about who is freind and who is foe, then we beleive this or that person is against us.

But in truth everyone is just wanting to express their veiws

 

[LuisDantas]

Understanding oneself will mean to be cognizant of our own biases. When we know our biases, we can evade them to know another person better.

I have recently come to wonder if it doesn't also mean not assuming biases that others perceive...

 

[LuisDantas]

Let me ask you this: is makyo dependent upon deity belief or lack thereof?

Most certainly not.

Although I assume this matter is settled between us already at this point. I would have answered earlier if I saw this post of yours previously.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

As human beings we all have the same basic tendencies, the only difference is that we all learn to respond differently.
Sometimes it is cultural conditioning that makes us the way we are and sometimes it is just our personal nature, and sometimes it is a combination of them both.so as soon as we begin to realise that we are not realy so different, as soon as we recognise our own tendancies then we will see the same in others.
It is only on the surface that we are culturaly different deep down we are very much more similar than we think.

It all starts with the fact that we are embodied beings, as soon as we are born we develop a strong sense of self and other, so from day one we are craving fulfilment in one sense or another.
Although you and I are very different people with very different qualities we still have common desires. Basic comfort and the friendship of others, we come here to discuss, why ? because we are social animals we like to find likeminded company and we like to be appreciated in some small way.

Even the ones who say that they have come here to learn and to teach, however humble or altruistic they are there is still a little side in all human beings that likes to be appreciated so when our views are not appreciated we feel just a little disappointed, it is only natural, so what ever feelings you have you can be sure that others experience the same feelings too.

So to me what I am seeing as fundamentalism is an extreme, an extreme in the sence of self and ones own culture, ones own conditioning. We need to look past this attitude of a strong self and a strong culture, also strong opinion it is realy dangerous it isolates people and makes them angry and inflexable, we need to take more time listen more often .

So here on these kind of sites many people are wanting to express their opinions, every one is wanting to be heard and appreciated to some extent and because the views are different there will be conflicts, we just need to understand that even though the views may differ we all have the same basic needs and wishes.
When we do not have our needs fulfilled we get tetchy and argumentative or we miss read what is being said, we misinterpret one another and make false judgements about who is freind and who is foe, then we beleive this or that person is against us.

But in truth everyone is just wanting to express their veiws

It will take me a while to digest this.

I mentioned it before...I was born with Asperger's disorder, but it is a very 'low functioning' form. I was born without any of those things you mentioned there...none of them.

So much so, I have spent the past 12 years living in total isolation, cut off from the rest of the world/society...not going out (except for the wee small hours to get my groceries from a 7/11), not associating with another living soul (except for my parents and the grocer)...I didn't even use the internet much or watch any TV (I had no digital decoder and was living in a communications 'black spot' anyway...even my mobile wouldn't work there).

During that 12 years, I got to know myself really well. I was my own 'best friend' and didn't need anybody else. The government pensioned me off because I was beyond social rehabilitation. I was seen as an 'eccentric recluse'.

So, I understand myself fully, but I do not understand others...NYK from Mars, Everybody else from Venus...and all that.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

Okay, Asha. I shall tell you (and everybody else) what happened okay?

We were having a little debate over in the Hindu DIR about the 'Nature of Mind'.

I read the thread before replying, and noticed that everybody was sticking to the 'Hindu hard line' and saying that samskaras were a Hindu 'right of passage' (which they are, but not only that).

This was only one interpretation of the word 'samskara', so I decided to keep in with the thread premise about 'The Nature of Mind' and started to incorporate the notion of samskaras into an essay based on Patanjali's Yoga Sutras and the benefits of meditation when it comes to actually realising these things for oneself.

I received a few frubals and two 'glowing replies' for it (from fellow Advaitins), then a Vaishnava Buddhist came along and started to poke holes in my essay with her Buddhist philosophy and teachings, which had nothing whatsoever to do with what I was talking about anyway and I found myself getting very annoyed and agitated....is this human?

I indulged in that anger/agitation for a few hours, then I dropped it (because it was a samskara itself), but after dropping it, I felt guilty for being upset in the first place....how/why did it ever get to this point? I am not like this. I am a nice person, not a b*tch.

I was 'intellectually insulted', so I posted a reply in another thread last night to explain the whole thing...and why I decided to make post in this thread...

There's a 'method to my madness'....problem is, that only I can fully understand/appreciate it when it's sorta 'lost' on everybody else.

Then, when I mentally/intellectually try and 'set the record straight', I just get totally ignored.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3649711-post87.html

Original thread:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/hinduism-dir/158973-how-do-hindus-view-mind.html

That is why I have been acting strange and why I posted here.

Please explain this situation to me. Thank you.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

Lesson:

Sometimes, ones's thoughts and experiences go way beyond that which can provide any reasonable or rational excuse for 'experiencing' them (hence the term).

Therefore, when a question is asked of their Faith or belief, they can only provide one 'piece of the puzzle', according to what puzzle they are completing at that time.

The reason why I 'see' things differently, is that I have had to learn all of my experiences. Nothing came 'natural' for me (and still doesn't), so I tend to cringe a little whenever the term 'human nature' comes up because I wouldn't have a clue what that is...

I was looking for a state/escape where I could actually have an experience that I didn't always have to think about first...where there were no preconditions, no pre-judgment. I found that in Hinduism and in the embrace of Lord Siva.

I don't know how I became drawn to Advaita, or if that's a natural part of the process...it just made more 'sense' than any other philosophy did. I also figured there was a huge enough difference/gap of Jnana vs Bhakti within myself that I didn't need to create any 'external' division of belief.

I came to the realisation ages ago that each Faith/God is like one small facet on a multi-faceted diamond. How that diamond shines, relates to the angle/individual perspective and the 'light source' = Achintya Brahman.

Everything else doesn't matter...so, you can all stop worrying about me now. lol

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

...or, we could always discuss my new Advaitic/Scientific theory I am currently working on:

Grand
Unified
Inertial
Non-Dual
Energy
Atman

Particle of
Indescribable
God-ness.

....so, we'll put a wheel in its cage and watch it roll (Like John Lennon once said).

I'm also boring, I know it. lol

 

[Aupmanyav]

I have recently come to wonder if it doesn't also mean not assuming biases that others perceive...

The biases can be on both sides, but one carries on none-the-less.