Why does baptism for the dead bother you?

[lunamoth]

You really think that? And what if one day it came to light what we were doing? Don't you think it is better we get permission to do it?

Yes, non-LDS relative would probably be mad. But how does it make the non-LDS relatives feel when approached to get permission? This is what I don't understand. I mean when I participate in an interfaith forum I can pretty much expect to have people tell me that my baptism is not 'official,' along with lots of other criticisms.

But if I'm a devout Catholic or Lutheran and have fond memories of Aunt Tilda at my first communion, how am I going to feel when my distant cousins who are LDS come knocking to tell me that she was not really baptized, and it needs to be done again. Just in case. :areyoucra

 

[Bishka]

But if I'm a devout Catholic or Lutheran and have fond memories of Aunt Tilda at my first communion, how am I going to feel when my distant cousins who are LDS come knocking to tell me that she was not really baptized, and it needs to be done again. Just in case. :areyoucra

Offended as many would, but you can deny them that permission. If you are the closest living relative, then you can deny it. I really do not see that problem here.

 

[lunamoth]

Offended as many would, but you can deny them that permission. If you are the closest living relative, then you can deny it. I really do not see that problem here.

Not to be picky, but if even one distant cousin objects, you don't do the baptism?

Added: Oops, I misread you. OK, so only the closest relatives are asked. How is the closest relative determined after a few generations and there are now several great-great-grandkids spread over a few different branches of the family?

Heck Becky, in my family we would all probably just laugh and say sure do it, whatever floats your boat.

But I know families that have been torn apart over seemingly smaller issues. Why risk the relationships of people living in the here and now?

 

[Bishka]

Not to be picky, but if even one distant cousin objects, you don't do the baptism?

Added: Oops, I misread you. OK, so only the closest relatives are asked. How is the closest relative determined after a few generations and there are now several great-great-grandkids spread over a few different branches of the family?

Not sure how it works that far down....

 

[Bishka]

Why risk the relationships of people living in the here and now?

If they don't believe in it, how is it affecting them? I truly don't understand that....:sorry1:

 

[Truth_Faith13]

If they don't believe in it, how is it affecting them? I truly don't understand that....:sorry1:

This is what I dont understand - if it were actually baptizing the dead themselves then I would see the problem. But its not - its someone else, so for those who dont believe in it in their eyes their loved ones are not being baptized.

I think people are forgetting also at the end of the day its down to the person who died (in our eyes anyway). They choose whether or not to accept the baptism.

 

[MaddLlama]

MOD POST

This is a general reminder for everyone to stay on the topic of the thread.
If you need a reminder as to the topic, please go back and re-read the OP
​

 

[dawny0826]

I don't believe in the validity of baptism for the dead but it certainly doesn't bother me.

 

[lunamoth]

If they don't believe in it, how is it affecting them? I truly don't understand that....:sorry1:

It affects them because it is exactly the same as telling them that what they hold dear is cr*p. It's as if a family member came to you one day and decided to have a nice long chat about how LDS are not Christians, and that you really should be baptized in a real Christian church. It's the same as what goes on here when the evangelists tell you that you are not Christian and I've noticed you don't seem to really like that all that much. You don't believe what they are saying do you? So why does it bother you? And in the case of BTD, the relatives have not gone out looking for a debate about their faith.

Look, you don't want to think anyone could have a legitimate reason for objecting to this practice. So, don't worry about it. You are free to write off my opinions for exactly what they are: my opinions.

 

[Katzpur]

I don't object to the proxy aspect. I object to the idea that the baptism a person has already had in life, either as an infant or consenting adult, is deemed insufficient. I think it would be better if this was done totally in secret and that you did not go about getting permission from living relatives.

I can understand where you're coming from and why you feel this way. About the only explanation I can give you is that we believe that a baptism is legitimate only is performed by someone who holds the proper authority to do so. It all gets back to Christ telling Peter that he was going to give him the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, allowing him to bind in heaven all things he would bind on earth. We believe that all of the ordinances prescribed by the Savior -- the first one being baptism -- are eternal in nature. The effect of baptism is intended by God to extend beyond the grave into the next life. If a person lacked the God-given authority (i.e. the Aaronic priesthood) to perform the baptism, it would not have the power to bind us in a covenant relationship with Jesus Christ, not on Earth and much less in Heaven.

 

[nutshell]

I never heard of Mormons asking permission to baptize the dead. Can a Mormon provide me the authority for such a claim?


Nutshell
Evangelical n Training

 

[lillitruthseeker]

why would you baptize a dead person? isnt it kinda over at that point? or is it like how people put gold coins on the eyes of dead people so they can pay the toll in the afterlife?

 

[jonny]

I never heard of Mormons asking permission to baptize the dead. Can a Mormon provide me the authority for such a claim?


Nutshell
Evangelical n Training

From A Member’s Guide to Temple and Family History Work: Ordinances and Covenants

General Guidelines:
A waiting period of at least one full year after death is required before temple ordinances may be performed for those who died without receiving their ordinances. This one-year waiting period does not apply to worthy members who died when under twenty-one years of age or who were unable to go to a temple in their lifetime for reasons beyond their control.

If the person was born within the last ninety-five years, obtain permission for the ordinances from the person’s closest living relative. This relative often wishes to receive the ordinances in behalf of the deceased or designate someone to receive them. In some instances, the relative may wish to postpone the performance of the ordinances. Also, be aware that acting in conflict with the wishes of the closest living relative can result in bad feelings toward you and the Church.

Delaying Ordinance Work:
You may wish to delay having ordinances performed for a person when research is still in progress, when you have not received permission from the immediate family members, or when another family member is going to submit the person’s name for ordinances. If you do not want some ordinances to be performed for a person at this time, you may submit the person’s name at a later time or submit the name now and request that only certain ordinances be performed.

 

[jonny]

From The Latter-day Saint Woman: Basic Manual for Women, Part B

Some Guidelines

As we submit names for temple work, we should remember these guidelines:

1. Our foremost obligation is for our own ancestors. We should not submit the names of people who are not related to us, including names we may obtain from personal extraction projects.

2. A person whose name is submitted must have been deceased for at least one full year.

3. If the person was born in the past 95 years, permission should be obtained from a close living relative before the name is submitted.

 

[jonny]

Branching Out on Your Family Tree
April 2007 Ensign

We should, however, be sensitive to the feelings of others and obtain permission from the closest living relative when submitting the names of deceased persons who were born within the last 95 years.

 

[jonny]

Let me know if these examples are not good enough. There are a lot more I could post.

 

[Scott1]

I think I asked this before, but refresh my memory please:

In Alma 34:35-36 it says: "For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he does seal you his. Therefore, the spirit of the Lord has withdrawn from you and hath no place in you; the power of the devil is over you, and this is the final state of the wicked."

Sounds to me that in other words, there's no point to an after death baptism... your holy book makes plain that death is FINAL.

 

[Katzpur]

why would you baptize a dead person? isnt it kinda over at that point?

I guess that would all depend upon what your view of the immortality of the human soul is, wouldn't it. You may believe it's "kinda over at that point." We believe it's just beginning.

or is it like how people put gold coins on the eyes of dead people so they can pay the toll in the afterlife?

I've never heard that one before. No, it's not even close.

 

[jonny]

I never heard of Mormons asking permission to baptize the dead. Can a Mormon provide me the authority for such a claim?

One more comment on this. A young woman in our ward passed away a few years ago. She had been baptised, but had never gone through the temple. I remember my mom mentioning that she was talking with their family to see if it was ok to do her temple work (they were not members of the church). It's not an official example, but it is an example.

 

[Katzpur]

I think I asked this before, but refresh my memory please:

In Alma 34:35-36 it says: "For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he does seal you his. Therefore, the spirit of the Lord has withdrawn from you and hath no place in you; the power of the devil is over you, and this is the final state of the wicked."

Sounds to me that in other words, there's no point to an after death baptism... your holy book makes plain that death is FINAL.

I think the key here is the condition of one's heart. God knows whose faith is weak due to circumstances beyond his control and who is simply being stubborn. Clearly, there are people who have perhaps been exposed to the gospel of Jesus Christ who, for whatever reason, never received a testimony of its truth and who, on the other hand, simply ignored the witness of the Spirit with the intention of repenting at some later date. The spirit of the Lord can only be withdrawn from someone who has already received it. To what extent the Lord will be willing to make allowances for these people is something we don't fully understand. What we do know is that (1) some people have not had what would constitute a "fair chance" to accept the gospel during mortality, (2) it's not for us to decide who has and who hasn't, and (3) baptism is a requirment for everybody.