Why does baptism for the dead bother you?

[Scott1]

I think the key here is the condition of one's heart.

I understand your opinion... but I'm wondering why God (as you believe) didn't explain this in your BOM... but seemed very clear on the issue in the quote from Alma.

.... also this quote in 2 Nephi 9:15: "And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from this first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, they must appear before the judgment seat of the Holy One of Israel, and then cometh the judgment and then must they be judged according to the holy judgment of God. For the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy . . . shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end."

Seems to CONTRADICT quite plainly your teaching on baptism for the dead.

????

 

[madhatter85]

I understand your opinion... but I'm wondering why God (as you believe) didn't explain this in your BOM... but seemed very clear on the issue in the quote from Alma.

.... also this quote in 2 Nephi 9:15: "And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from this first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, they must appear before the judgment seat of the Holy One of Israel, and then cometh the judgment and then must they be judged according to the holy judgment of God. For the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy . . . shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end."

Seems to CONTRADICT quite plainly your teaching on baptism for the dead.

????

Right there at the beginning- "And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from this first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal,

Right there statin this is after everyone has been resurrected to become immortal, if they are still filthy, then they will be judged and.... "shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end."

read more carefully. it does not at all contradict the baptisms for the dead. it states after everyone has passed this life giving plenty of time for the souls in "spirit prison" to be still saved by baptism. (mentioned in corinthians and peter)

 

[Scott1]

read more carefully.

Hmmmm... nice.

I've read it quite carefully, thank you... I just don't agree with you... there's a difference.

 

[Katzpur]

Hmmmm... nice.

I've read it quite carefully, thank you... I just don't agree with you... there's a difference.

If I'm not mistaken, Scott, Catholics believe in two separate judgments, although I can't remember the terminology you use in referring to them. 2 Nephi 9:15 is definitely speaking of "the Last Judgment," after which there will be no opportunity to repent. We will not receive our new, immortal bodies until this time, therefore, the judgment at which some will be deemed worthy of torment "that has no end" will not take place immediately after death, but at the end of Christ's millennial reign.

 

[Scott1]

If I'm not mistaken, Scott, Catholics believe in two separate judgments, although I can't remember the terminology you use in referring to them.

Nope... one judgement:

"Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."CCC # 1035 (emphasis mine)

2 Nephi 9:15 is definitely speaking of "the Last Judgment,"

Not saying you are wrong, of course... but to me the text seems pretty clearly to go against the teaching and your opinion on it.

Thanks anyway...
S

 

[Inky]

At the end of the day, it is the person/or soul of that persons choice whether they accept it or not - and yes I am talking about when they are dead. The proxy baptism isnt forcing the religion on that person it is giving them a choice to accept it if now seeing the truth they wish to accept it.

Very interesting; I didn't know this. I was against the practice when I heard of it, but I thought the church considered everyone who's been baptized by proxy to be a Mormon, which would just seem like a way to "convert" someone who can't refuse. It seems fine to me now, though.

 

[madhatter85]

Hmmmm... nice.

I've read it quite carefully, thank you... I just don't agree with you... there's a difference.

you said a scripture is stating somethign it's not, that's the difference

 

[Scott1]

you said a scripture is stating somethign it's not, that's the difference

Umm... it's a matter of interpretation.... I read it differently than you.... just because you can't imagine being wrong does not mean it does not boil down to opinion.

Hope you understand.

 

[Bishka]

you said a scripture is stating somethign it's not, that's the difference

No, we have a difference of interpretation/opinion, that's the problem.

 

[madhatter85]

Umm... it's a matter of interpretation.... I read it differently than you.... just because you can't imagine being wrong does not mean it does not boil down to opinion.

Hope you understand.

How can it be read wrong when it's not ambiguous in any way?

 

[Scott1]

How can it be read wrong when it's not ambiguous in any way?

I guess you're just smarter/more holy than I am.... let's move on.

 

[madhatter85]

I guess you're just smarter/more holy than I am.... let's move on.

i'm really curious if you could break it down so i understand what you mean?

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Very interesting; I didn't know this. I was against the practice when I heard of it, but I thought the church considered everyone who's been baptized by proxy to be a Mormon, which would just seem like a way to "convert" someone who can't refuse. It seems fine to me now, though.

I think most people have the same problem you had. Its perfectly understandable! It depends on peoples view of the soul - but as I said, it is after all down to the soul of the deceased. Their choice, as it was their choice in life.

 

[Runt]

If you go back to my last response you will see that the people that recieve this baptism still have the right to choose whether to accept the baptism or not... in the gospel of jesus christ alot of it has to do with agency.. the god given gift to man.. satan wishes to destroy our agency by taking away our freedom through sin.. if doing baptism for the dead and opening up the choice for those on the other side to accept baptism or not is taking away agency.. than i could understand your point.. but it actually gives agency.. allowing those that would have accepted baptism in this life but never had the chance with the situation or knowledge that they had in this life.. so casting a spell or hex on someone is taking away agency, but allowing someone the choice to accept or not a sacred ordinance of the gospel of jesus christ is opening up more freedom.

Yes, but imagine that the Satanist were not attempting to cast a spell on you or hex you. They were just offering you the opportunity to turn away from God if you so choose. Or a pagan might be offering you the opportunity for rebirth. Or a Catholic might be offering you a chance to get out of Purgatory. Would it bother you if another religion were doing to for you precisely what Mormons are doing for others? I.E. deciding, based on their beliefs, that you might not be happy with your religious choices in life, and so might want an opportunity to go to THEIR version of the afterlife instead, since you apparently screwed up so monumentally in your own life.

 

[Katzpur]

Yes, but imagine that the Satanist were not attempting to cast a spell on you or hex you. They were just offering you the opportunity to turn away from God if you so choose. Or a pagan might be offering you the opportunity for rebirth. Or a Catholic might be offering you a chance to get out of Purgatory. Would it bother you if another religion were doing to for you precisely what Mormons are doing for others? I.E. deciding, based on their beliefs, that you might not be happy with your religious choices in life, and so might want an opportunity to go to THEIR version of the afterlife instead, since you apparently screwed up so monumentally in your own life.

I don't believe there's a single Latter-day Saint here who wouldn't be willing to see the tables turned. After all, if we were given free will to either accept or reject the results of what their offering provided -- and particularly if their offering were done out of a sincere belief that we just might see things differently at some point in the future -- I think we'd be fine with it. As long as their was no coersion involved, as is the case with proxy baptism, what harm would be done?

 

[Runt]

I don't believe there's a single Latter-day Saint here who wouldn't be willing to see the tables turned. After all, if we were given free will to either accept or reject the results of what their offering provided -- and particularly if their offering were done out of a sincere belief that we just might see things differently at some point in the future -- I think we'd be fine with it. As long as their was no coersion involved, as is the case with proxy baptism, what harm would be done?

EXCELLENT *rubs hands together*

 

[Katzpur]

Nope... one judgement:

"Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."CCC # 1035 (emphasis mine)

Awhile back, when I was talking to Runlikethewind about the similarities and differences between the LDS doctrine of the Spirit World and the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory, he said, "From what I understand Catholics believe in a personal judgment for each individual when we die and then later on a final judgment of all humanity."

Since he's not around any more, you might want to clarify this statement for me. As I was asking him, if you believe that each of us is judged immediately after death and is sent to either heaven or hell, what's the point of the Last Judgment, as described in Revelation? Who's going to be left to be judged? And, assuming that there really is a "Last Judgment," and that this judgment is to take place when Christ returns to the Earth, what is the state of the soul in the interim?

 

[Katzpur]

EXCELLENT *rubs hands together*

You're a UU, Runt, not a Satanist. What are you so darned excited about? What's the second "U" stand for anyway?

 

[Runt]

You're a UU, Runt, not a Satanist. What are you so darned excited about? What's the second "U" stand for anyway?

LOL, I'm just playing. Although I do have lots of friends of various religious beliefs...... kekeke, jk jk!

The second "U" stands for Universalist.

 

[jonny]

I think that part of the problem may be that Mormons believe in free will - in this life and the next - and many religions (including Christian) don't take this idea as seriously as Mormons do.