Why Does God Allow Suffering?

[Trailblazer]

*sigh* If (say) an electrician wires something up that leaves an exposed live wire and somebody comes along, inadvertently touches it and dies, then we would rightly hold the electrician responsible, even though they didn't make the person touch the wire, let alone know that somebody would.

*sigh* God is not an electrician so God did not wire anything. Comparing God to an electrician is the fallacy of false equivalence.

False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency.[1] A colloquial expression of false equivalency is "comparing apples and oranges".

This fallacy is committed when one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result.[2] False equivalence is a common result when an anecdotal similarity is pointed out as equal, but the claim of equivalence doesn't bear scrutiny because the similarity is based on oversimplification or ignorance of additional factors.

False equivalence - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

How much more responsible would an omniscient God be for all the consequences of its action of creation?

The act of creation does not CAUSE anything to happen.
God does not CAUSE anything to happen just because God KNOWS it will happen.
There is no logical connection between knowledge and causality, NONE at all.

You really need to read the following quotes and TRY to understand what they mean. Pay close attention to what I highlighted in italics.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 149-150

Question.—If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to resist it?
Answer.—The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God.......

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 138-141

Either reality is entirely deterministic or it contains some genuine randomness. In the former case, everything it set in stone from the moment of creation and a God would be responsible for it all. In the latter, it would also be responsible for introducing the randomness. It would certainly not be people, who would have no control over it.

Some of what happens is fated and some is random, but other things are chosen via free will, the choices. Our choices are determined by a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. All of these factors are the reasons why we choose one thing or another at any point in time. God did not determine those factors. They are simply due to how our lives unfolded.

You just want to pass the buck and make God responsible for everything, which is patently illogical. Every court of law knows that God is not responsible for human moral choices. Humans are responsible for those because they have free will to choose good or evil.

God is only responsible for what He causes but God does not cause anything so God is not responsible for anything that happens to humans in this world.

So your God wanted a world full of misunderstanding of its messages, different religions that often hate each other, conflict, uncertainty and not one shred of actual evidence that it exists at all? Okay, but I'd rather spit in such a God's eye, than worship it.

No, that is not what God wanted. God did not cause a world full of misunderstanding of its messages, different religions that often hate each other, and conflict, humans caused those things. But God knew that would not last forever because God had a plan from the very beginning to put a halt to all of that by sending a new messenger who corrected all of those misunderstandings.

As for the evidence, it has been staring you in the face, and it is not God's fault that you cannot see it.

God gave you free will, so you can spit in God's face if you want to. It won't hurt God, it will only hurt you. I ought to know because I used to spit in God's face over all the suffering I have had to endure. Life is much better now that I can see more clearly and understand why I suffered. It was not because God was out to get me, it was just part and parcel of life in a material world.

It would avoid lots of problems, evil, and confusion in the world. But, hey, you don't think your God cares about that, so whatever.

Please explain why you think that God communicating directly to everyone would avoid lots of problems, evil, and confusion in the world. Do you really think that everyone would understand that communication in the same way? That would be logically impossible, since every human thinks with a different mind.

Better design would have solved that.

And you 'know better' than an omniscient God how to design humans.

They wouldn't have to if everybody was getting the message directly, would they?

They would not have to write the 15,000 tablets that Baha'u'llah wrote but they would have to:
a) have time to listen to all of that and
b) be able to understand all of that.

Give it up for lost. This would never work in reality, which is why God communicates to one messenger in every age, a messenger who can communicate what He receives from God to all of humanity.

Nasty, evil, and bad a reasoning, then.

Sorry, but the reasoning of an 'omniscient God' is far better than any human reasoning. That is logic 101.

 

[ratiocinator]

*sigh* God is not an electrician so God did not wire anything. Comparing God to an electrician is the fallacy of false equivalence.

The act of creation does not CAUSE anything to happen.

Are you even being serious now?

Some of what happens is fated and some is random, but other things are chosen via free will, the choices.

No matter how often you repeat it, there can be no such thing as genuine free will. It's self-contradictory. To the extent any event (including a choice), is not determined by previous events, it happens for no reason, so is, to that extent, random. There is no third option.

No, that is not what God wanted.

You said "It has worked for what God wanted to accomplish." Make up your mind.

Please explain why you think that God communicating directly to everyone would avoid lots of problems, evil, and confusion in the world. Do you really think that everyone would understand that communication in the same way?

It could be a commination that was tailored to each person, if it was individual. A God could make everybody capable of understanding its message, if it so wished.

And you 'know better' than an omniscient God how to design humans.

More circular reasoning.

Sorry, but the reasoning of an 'omniscient God' is far better than any human reasoning. That is circular logic 101.

FIFY.

 

[Trailblazer]

The point did not go over my head. It was just too ridiculous to even entertain, in addition ti the fact that it was based upon fallacious reasoning, a point that went right over your head.

Are you even being serious now?

The act of creation sets things in motion but it does not CAUSE anything to happen.

God does not CAUSE anything to happen just because God KNOWS it will happen.
There is no logical connection between knowledge and causality, NONE at all.

No matter how often you repeat it, there can be no such thing as genuine free will. It's self-contradictory. To the extent any event (including a choice), is not determined by previous events, it happens for no reason, so is, to that extent, random. There is no third option.

What is genuine free will, free will without any constraints?
Sure, free will has many constraints but that does not mean we don't have any free will.

You said "It has worked for what God wanted to accomplish." Make up your mind.

God did not want a world full of misunderstanding of its messages, different religions that often hate each other, and conflict, but it did not matter to God because God knew that would not last forever since God had a plan from the very beginning to put a halt to all of that by sending a new messenger who corrected all of those misunderstandings.

So, everything that has happened has worked for what God wanted to accomplish.

It could be a commination that was tailored to each person, if it was individual. A God could make everybody capable of understanding its message, if it so wished.

Why should God do any of that, because you think He should?

It is completely unnecessary (and illogical) for God to communicate to everyone when God can communicate to one messenger who can get the message out to everyone.

God has made everybody capable of understanding its message from the messenger.

“He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 104-107

Seems to me that you have run out of arguments. I never run out of arguments.

 

[ratiocinator]

The point did not go over my head. It was just too ridiculous to even entertain, in addition ti the fact that it was based upon fallacious reasoning, a point that went right over your head.

You took an analogy entirely literally. I mean, did you really not get that it was just an analogy about responsibility? Did you seriously think that I thought God was an electrician, who had wired something up?

The act of creation sets things in motion but it does not CAUSE anything to happen.

This is nonsense. Setting things in motion is causing subsequent things to happen. That's what it means.

Sure, free will has many constraints but that does not mean we don't have any free will.

We don't have any free will for the reason I said and you totally ignored.

God did not want a world full of misunderstanding of its messages, different religions that often hate each other, and conflict, but it did not matter to God because God knew that would not last forever since God had a plan from the very beginning to put a halt to all of that by sending a new messenger who corrected all of those misunderstandings.

Which then led to even more misunderstanding, and now we have a total mess of different religions and conflicts.

So, everything that has happened has worked for what God wanted to accomplish.

So your God wanted a total mess.

Why should God do any of that, because you think He should?

Because it makes logical sense if you don't want to end up with a total mess involving endless religious conflict, hatred, and mistrust.

God has made everybody capable of understanding its message from the messenger.

Then why don't they.

Seems to me that you have run out of arguments. I never run out of arguments.

You ran out of arguments a long, long time ago. You just repeat yourself and ignore the counterarguments. I'm bored with it now. Have a nice life.

 

[Trailblazer]

You took an analogy entirely literally. I mean, did you really not get that it was just an analogy about responsibility? Did you seriously think that I thought God was an electrician, who had wired something up?

Of course I knew it was only an analogy. How dumb do you think I am? I have two Master's degrees, so I am not dumb.
It was because I knew it was an analogy that I said it was the fallacy of false equivalence, since God is not equivalent to a human.

This is nonsense. Setting things in motion is causing subsequent things to happen. That's what it means.

You are absolutely wrong and I won't stop talking till I convince you of that, or until you stop posting back to me, whichever comes first.

I'm not sure how I am going to get through, but let me try an analogy.

The world is like a chessboard and God made the chessboard. God also made humans who are like the pieces on the chessboard.
After God made the chessboard and the chess pieces, God was no longer involved in this world, so God did not cause any subsequent things to happen.

Humans are like the chess pieces moving around and making the choices that have caused subsequent things to happen.

We don't have any free will for the reason I said and you totally ignored.

I did not ignore it, I just disagreed with it.
You said: To the extent any event (including a choice), is not determined by previous events, it happens for no reason, so is, to that extent, random. There is no third option.

There is a third choice. Our choices are determined by previous events, but they are still choices that we make, so we have what is called deterministic free will.

Which then led to even more misunderstanding, and now we have a total mess of different religions and conflicts.

Yes, we have a total mess of different religions and conflicts, but as I said, God sent a new messenger who corrected all of those misunderstandings. That messenger did not lead to more misunderstanding, it led to more understanding, for those of us who read and understood what the messenger revealed.

It is all as clear as the noonday sun to me why we have a total mess of different religions and conflicts, and the only way to remedy the present situation is also clear to me. It is also clear to God, which is why God has ordained that all people be united and have one common Faith. Obviously, that will not happen for a long time, but since God ordained it it will happen eventually.

“That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and all else naught but error.” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 91

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, Pages 88-96

So your God wanted a total mess.

Why do you twist what I say? I did not say that God wanted a total mess.
I said: So, everything that has happened has worked for what God wanted to accomplish.

What happened was that God allowed humans to make a total mess knowing that mess would be all cleaned up in the future.
The Baha'is are in the process of trying to clean up that mess but the workers are few, and we are met with resistance from the adherents of the older religions, so it is taking a long time.

Because it makes logical sense if you don't want to end up with a total mess involving endless religious conflict, hatred, and mistrust.

No, direct communication by God to every one of the 8 billion people in the world makes no sense at all, not at all.

We already know what happens with religions, but you do not know what would happen if God communicated directly to everyone.
I can only imagine what a big huge mess that would make. Everyone would be saying that they know the truth and the other guy is wrong. Since no two people would understand the same communication the same way, there would be no chance for unity in this world.

And now I will let you in on a little secret. Before I came to this forum about six years ago, I had been posting to an atheist man on some other forums for about eight years. He kept saying that if God existed God would communicate directly to everyone, so the fact that God does not do that means that God does not exist. After years of bantering back and forth, he had to admit he was wrong.

He had to concede to what I said: If God exists God does not communicate directly to everyone, so that means that if God existed God would not communicate to everyone.

The only recourse that atheist had after that was God does not exist, which I agreed was congruent with logic.

Given what we see in this world, there are three mutually exclusive logical possibilities:

1) God exists and communicates via messengers (theist)
2) God exists but does not communicate to humans (deist)
3) God does not exist (atheist)

To say that God should communicate directly to everyone, so God does not know what He is doing, is illogical to say about an omniscient God.

Then why don't they.

That is a good question. All I can say is that capacity does not guarantee that everyone will be able to USE that capacity.

The way I argue my cases, people on my previous forums used to tell me I should have been an attorney, and I do come from a long line of renowned attorneys, going way back to my great grandfather. I might have had the capacity to be a lawyer, but for various reasons I did not use that capacity.

You ran out of arguments a long, long time ago. You just repeat yourself and ignore the counterarguments. I'm bored with it now. Have a nice life.

You are the one who ran out of arguments, and I know that because you have been unable to respond to my arguments.
But that's okay if you don't want to post to me anymore. I have my hands full as it is!