Why does God not talk to us?

[Bob the Unbeliever]

.... I find that miscarried and aborted children--a number about half of live births or more--are going to Heaven,...

If modern medical science is at all accurate? And, indeed, they do have a great deal of scientific evidence to back them up?

It's estimated (conservatively) that about 4 out of every 5 fertilized human ova, are naturally aborted somewhere along the way. Most of these occur within the first couple of weeks (or less) and the woman never even realizes she had been pregnant for a brief time.

So, doing the simple maths? And going by the actual biblical descriptions of biblical heaven?

Heaven has long since filled up it's volume, with these aborted "fetal christians".... ! Many-many times the current population of 8+ billions, in fact.

So, I have to ask? Were you serious? What happens to these tiny, pink worm-like things? Are they still alive, if stunted? What keeps them alive? They have no brains-- so they aren't aware in the sense that you and I are-- but according to Dogma, they had/have souls, so they are in "heaven"... right?

Mindless, brainless, squirming masses of these things....

But Wait! God gave them Full On New Bodies!

....ummmmm.... how is that better? They had absolutely ZERO life-experiences while on earth. They would be akin to a plastic doll-- with nary a thought of any kind in their blank brains.....

Not unlike a Classic Mindless Zombie (except without the gross rotting flesh aspect), wandering around, not even cognizant enough to cry out "braaaaains".... !

Is that really how you want to play this game?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Interesting perspective. I, for the life of me, cannot fathom how on earth you got that out of those verses though-- as there was absolutely zero mention of the "alternative salvation" you listed... not even implied.... In fact, there are several verses that imply there are valid alternative salvation methods; it's only in the heretical book Revelations of John, that you find statements to the exclusivity of the Jesus road... which I always found Interesting with an I. If Jesus was exclusive? Why did Jesus himself never bother a mention-- indeed, he said otherwise on at least two occasions, when his followers were questioning the activities of others who were repeating the ideas Jesus was promoting, but were not members of the "exclusive Jesus club of 12"....



Again, with the Might Makes Right failed non-argument. "Gawd Can Do What Gawd Likes Because Gawd"

This absolutely ignores the fact that humans-- mere humans-- act MORE MORALLY than bible's god... !



I'm learning -- and I seldom take offense (in reality) but I do love to pounce on perceived insults.

Obviously, the perception can be on either party's part, yes?

The sole salvation methods I can discern in the Bible:

* Trust Jesus Christ
* Trust God if not knowing Jesus
* Try to earn salvation and experience the epic fail

I'm not ignoring that you feel people are moral than God, but I've considered that the Father of people and morality is immoral does not compute, since you are judging the Creator using the tools of judgment and morality He gave you--it's moot, isn't it, further, to say, "I know you can destroy me but go ahead, I'm more moral than you!" -- something I've never said to a physical assailant or anyone who has a gun on me. We don't have to "like" the answers we receive from God, we are accountable for responding to God IMHO.

I don't perceive any bad intent or insults on your part. You've said you've overcome what you falsely learned in church and want to help others think clearly. I'm sympathetic as I heard some nonsense as a Jew before I trusted the true Jewish Messiah for salvation.

 

[BilliardsBall]

If modern medical science is at all accurate? And, indeed, they do have a great deal of scientific evidence to back them up?

It's estimated (conservatively) that about 4 out of every 5 fertilized human ova, are naturally aborted somewhere along the way. Most of these occur within the first couple of weeks (or less) and the woman never even realizes she had been pregnant for a brief time.

So, doing the simple maths? And going by the actual biblical descriptions of biblical heaven?

Heaven has long since filled up it's volume, with these aborted "fetal christians".... ! Many-many times the current population of 8+ billions, in fact.

So, I have to ask? Were you serious? What happens to these tiny, pink worm-like things? Are they still alive, if stunted? What keeps them alive? They have no brains-- so they aren't aware in the sense that you and I are-- but according to Dogma, they had/have souls, so they are in "heaven"... right?

Mindless, brainless, squirming masses of these things....

But Wait! God gave them Full On New Bodies!

....ummmmm.... how is that better? They had absolutely ZERO life-experiences while on earth. They would be akin to a plastic doll-- with nary a thought of any kind in their blank brains.....

Not unlike a Classic Mindless Zombie (except without the gross rotting flesh aspect), wandering around, not even cognizant enough to cry out "braaaaains".... !

Is that really how you want to play this game?

I think God is a Creator and though He is patient and His timing isn't yours or mine, He finishes plans He begins. My own miscarried child with my spouse will be fully formed in Heaven. Exciting--and to me and my spouse--not a "game", so please be respectful of us before you disagree.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

The sole salvation methods I can discern in the Bible:

* Trust Jesus Christ
* Trust God if not knowing Jesus
* Try to earn salvation and experience the epic fail.

Go re-read the story wherein Jesus' disciples were complaining that other groups were "using Jesus name" but were not immediate members of their club. Jesus' reply is ... revealing. But not if you don't read it with an open mind.

I'm not ignoring that you feel people are moral than God, but I've considered that the Father of people and morality is immoral does not compute, since you are judging the Creator using the tools of judgment and morality He gave you--it's moot, isn't it, further, to say, "I know you can destroy me but go ahead, I'm more moral than you!" -- something I've never said to a physical assailant or anyone who has a gun on me. We don't have to "like" the answers we receive from God, we are accountable for responding to God IMHO..

The being you describe, above? Is just a common bully. What you describe is bullying-- a more powerful being doing whatever it pleases, regardless of how it appears to the victims.

This is Not Good. It is also an example of the failed Might Makes Right.

Notebook: If you rule by FEAR (as in the case your paragraph describes)? you cannot be GOOD.

I don't perceive any bad intent or insults on your part. You've said you've overcome what you falsely learned in church and want to help others think clearly. I'm sympathetic as I heard some nonsense as a Jew before I trusted the true Jewish Messiah for salvation.

I'm just trying to muddle along in the MATRIX. (ha! just kidding.... I'm so not a fatalist. )

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I think God is a Creator and though He is patient and His timing isn't yours or mine, He finishes plans He begins. My own miscarried child with my spouse will be fully formed in Heaven. Exciting--and to me and my spouse--not a "game", so please be respectful of us before you disagree.

Okay-- fully formed? As in an infant? Or do angels raise up the child into adulthood?

As for the miscarried fetuses that are mere blobs of cells? What of them? Do they get force-grown into babies, to also be raised by angels or something?

It seems to me? That these "people" (if you can call them that) got the BEST DEAL EVER-- they didn't even get a chance to sin, or fail or suffer a single second of heartache.... Directly To Heaven, do not pass Go, do not collect 200 Sins.

Why didn't god simply do EVERYONE this way, if it's such a Wonderful Idea?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Go re-read the story wherein Jesus' disciples were complaining that other groups were "using Jesus name" but were not immediate members of their club. Jesus' reply is ... revealing. But not if you don't read it with an open mind.



The being you describe, above? Is just a common bully. What you describe is bullying-- a more powerful being doing whatever it pleases, regardless of how it appears to the victims.

This is Not Good. It is also an example of the failed Might Makes Right.

Notebook: If you rule by FEAR (as in the case your paragraph describes)? you cannot be GOOD.



I'm just trying to muddle along in the MATRIX. (ha! just kidding.... I'm so not a fatalist. )

Mark 9 seems like an inclusivist example to my understanding:

38 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.” 39 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us. 41 Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.

You make a blanket statement about God but I don't you'd apply this to others:

"If you rule by FEAR (as in the case your paragraph describes)? you cannot be GOOD."

Yet, every teacher I've ever had told me I would be failed in their course unless I:

* read their books
* studied them, memorized portions
* adhered to their rule book/syllabus

I never thought my good teachers ruled by fear, but they did have accountability. Apparently in the Bible, Jesus will fail us unless we:

* read His books
* study them, memorize portions
* adhered to His rule book/syllabus

But truly, He is far more merciful, and none of these things, even the constant breaking of His rule book is the problem. One is saved in two words, "Trust Jesus".

Is that ruling by fear, to tell you a pass/fail test comes, and to give you a very simple way to pass that ANY student can accomplish?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Okay-- fully formed? As in an infant? Or do angels raise up the child into adulthood?

As for the miscarried fetuses that are mere blobs of cells? What of them? Do they get force-grown into babies, to also be raised by angels or something?

It seems to me? That these "people" (if you can call them that) got the BEST DEAL EVER-- they didn't even get a chance to sin, or fail or suffer a single second of heartache.... Directly To Heaven, do not pass Go, do not collect 200 Sins.

Why didn't god simply do EVERYONE this way, if it's such a Wonderful Idea?

Are you asking me why God lets people live complete lives on Earth rather than aborting all sinners to give them a free pass? If so:

* You are saying humans sin--surely dogs and cats and birds can live
* There must be free will
* God is merciful

Again, I told you only what I see in the Bible/understand in the Bible and your reply is "God doesn't do this the way I like, why give baby X a free pass but I don't get one?" YET YOU GET A FREE PASS--JESUS CHRIST.

USE YOUR FREE PASS IMHO FOR FREE ETERNAL LIFE.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Mark 9 seems like an inclusivist example to my understanding:

38 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.” 39 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us. 41 Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward..

Indeed. The above seems to make clear, that Jesus is not really necessary for salvation. Nor even to be included in Jesus Special Fan Club (made exclusively of ..... men... what's up with that, anyhow? )

That whole verse 40 shtick.

You make a blanket statement about God but I don't you'd apply this to others:

"If you rule by FEAR (as in the case your paragraph describes)? you cannot be GOOD.".

Of course not! Other people are not, well... GOD. They are mere, limited humans, with limited understanding, limited knowledge, limited resources, limited methodologies.

Yet, every teacher I've ever had told me I would be failed in their course unless I:

* read their books
* studied them, memorized portions
* adhered to their rule book/syllabus.

In direct contrast to.. god who is, according to this label, "infinite".

A mere teacher? Cannot do things beyond their abilites-- what if they are lousy at explaining? What if they are just plain boring in their delivery? What if they are simply not very good at teaching?

Lots and LOTS of things could easily go wrong-- so using a little fear? Can make a kind of sense-- except the fear is not all THAT big deal-- so what if you fail the class, or only make a C?

What are the consequences? You gotta re-take the class? You gotta do extra homework? BIG DEAL!

The fear is not even remotely the same, and really, is pretty mild compared to the pure BULLYING we see in the ugly bible...

I never thought my good teachers ruled by fear, but they did have accountability. Apparently in the Bible, Jesus will fail us unless we:

* read His books
* study them, memorize portions
* adhered to His rule book/syllabus

But truly, He is far more merciful, and none of these things, even the constant breaking of His rule book is the problem. One is saved in two words, "Trust Jesus".

Is that ruling by fear, to tell you a pass/fail test comes, and to give you a very simple way to pass that ANY student can accomplish?

I would fully expect Superior Morality from any being calling itself "god".

The bible's god? And Jesus in particular? Do not make the grade-- I give them both "F".

They are bullies: "worship me or be tortured/punished/destroyed/whatever-negative-afterlife-is-imagined" Your very use if the word "merciful" makes this plain.

Those are the actions of a petty tyrant, a narcissist. A Not Nice Person. Evil.

But truly, He is far more merciful... .

How, exactly? Accurate Mercy? Would be: "Everyone-- no matter what-- gets redemption/heaven/whatever-positive-afterlife-you-imagine. "

Limited "mercy" is just that-- being a Bully: Worship me or die.

Or "Worship me so I WON'T beat your face in"

Same thing, really...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Are you asking me why God lets people live complete lives on Earth rather than aborting all sinners to give them a free pass? If so:

* You are saying humans sin--surely dogs and cats and birds can live
* There must be free will
* God is merciful

Really? You break your own message, in 3 points:

* You are saying humans sin--surely dogs and cats and birds can live
* There must be free will
* God is merciful.

No aborted fetus has to risk any of those things-- and point 3? Doesn't even apply!

In truth? If you really believed what you just wrote? You would be the most pro-abortion person, ever-- you would preach that all babies ought to be aborted, or at least, mercifully killed as soon as they are born, so that they immediately go directly to heaven-- No risk of sin, none of that.

More! you would totally be against any an all hospital for children-- because, Innocent, right? And what if the kidlet never hears the Magical Word: "Jesus"?

If what you believe is accurate? They'd go directly to heaven, no risk of missing out!

Your inconsistency is so wide, here-- that I'm really having a difficult time understanding how you can keep it all in your head, and not have nightmares about it all!

 

[BilliardsBall]

Indeed. The above seems to make clear, that Jesus is not really necessary for salvation. Nor even to be included in Jesus Special Fan Club (made exclusively of ..... men... what's up with that, anyhow? )

That whole verse 40 shtick.



Of course not! Other people are not, well... GOD. They are mere, limited humans, with limited understanding, limited knowledge, limited resources, limited methodologies.



In direct contrast to.. god who is, according to this label, "infinite".

A mere teacher? Cannot do things beyond their abilites-- what if they are lousy at explaining? What if they are just plain boring in their delivery? What if they are simply not very good at teaching?

Lots and LOTS of things could easily go wrong-- so using a little fear? Can make a kind of sense-- except the fear is not all THAT big deal-- so what if you fail the class, or only make a C?

What are the consequences? You gotta re-take the class? You gotta do extra homework? BIG DEAL!

The fear is not even remotely the same, and really, is pretty mild compared to the pure BULLYING we see in the ugly bible...


I would fully expect Superior Morality from any being calling itself "god".

The bible's god? And Jesus in particular? Do not make the grade-- I give them both "F".

They are bullies: "worship me or be tortured/punished/destroyed/whatever-negative-afterlife-is-imagined" Your very use if the word "merciful" makes this plain.

Those are the actions of a petty tyrant, a narcissist. A Not Nice Person. Evil.



How, exactly? Accurate Mercy? Would be: "Everyone-- no matter what-- gets redemption/heaven/whatever-positive-afterlife-you-imagine. "

Limited "mercy" is just that-- being a Bully: Worship me or die.

Or "Worship me so I WON'T beat your face in"

Same thing, really...

Hi Bob,

How is this showing salvation WITHOUT Christ: "Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name [Jesus] because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward." (?!)

I think I've drawn clearly -- and you've heard clearly in the past from others also, I hope -- the difference between a petty tyrant and the God who died on the Cross for us and who sends rain on just and unjust, believers and skeptics alike.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Really? You break your own message, in 3 points:


No aborted fetus has to risk any of those things-- and point 3? Doesn't even apply!

In truth? If you really believed what you just wrote? You would be the most pro-abortion person, ever-- you would preach that all babies ought to be aborted, or at least, mercifully killed as soon as they are born, so that they immediately go directly to heaven-- No risk of sin, none of that.

More! you would totally be against any an all hospital for children-- because, Innocent, right? And what if the kidlet never hears the Magical Word: "Jesus"?

If what you believe is accurate? They'd go directly to heaven, no risk of missing out!

Your inconsistency is so wide, here-- that I'm really having a difficult time understanding how you can keep it all in your head, and not have nightmares about it all!

1) I brought up the three points to show teachers and cops and judges have laws we follow/rules we follow, which has to do with accountability/responsibility/society/sin and not "ruling by fear".

2) I gave THE example to the rule of following the rules--Jesus--who cannot be accused of bullying you since He gave you IMHO a get-out-of-jail free card, by going to far worse than jail for our souls.

3)

Really? You break your own message, in 3 points:


No aborted fetus has to risk any of those things-- and point 3? Doesn't even apply!

In truth? If you really believed what you just wrote? You would be the most pro-abortion person, ever-- you would preach that all babies ought to be aborted, or at least, mercifully killed as soon as they are born, so that they immediately go directly to heaven-- No risk of sin, none of that.

More! you would totally be against any an all hospital for children-- because, Innocent, right? And what if the kidlet never hears the Magical Word: "Jesus"?

If what you believe is accurate? They'd go directly to heaven, no risk of missing out!

Your inconsistency is so wide, here-- that I'm really having a difficult time understanding how you can keep it all in your head, and not have nightmares about it all!

1) I brought up the three points to show teachers and cops and judges have laws we follow/rules we follow, which has to do with accountability/responsibility/society/sin and not "ruling by fear".

2) I gave THE example to the rule of following the rules--Jesus--who cannot be accused of bullying you since He gave you IMHO a get-out-of-jail free card, by going to far worse than jail for our souls.

3) I invited you to be sensitive on the issue, but you've just told me my wife and I should only rejoice and experience no sadness that we miscarried a child. No Christian I know would ever, ever, ever belittle my sorrow in this way. Would you consider it a personal attack if I put this in general terms? a) You owe me an apology b) repent c) I expect this type of insensitivity by people who disdain Jesus Christ.

 

[Walterbl]

Imagine you could talk to God every time you want like sending your mom a whatsapp message. Human would ask for God's approval for every single little decision, becoming perpetual childs unable to think for themselves.

God, what should I study? God, does this dress makes me look fat? God, is it true that you kill a kitten every time I do something wrong?

 

[Muffled]

That's true in my experience. The more involved, the more I learned about a religion, the more God took on aspects ascribed to God by that religion.

So perhaps in a way God becomes whatever you need God to be. Our belief/faith seems to influence the experience.

I don't believe so. I believe God leads us along a path of understanding, helping us to get to know Him better.

 

[Muffled]

Imagine you could talk to God every time you want like sending your mom a whatsapp message. Human would ask for God's approval for every single little decision, becoming perpetual childs unable to think for themselves.

God, what should I study? God, does this dress makes me look fat? God, is it true that you kill a kitten every time I do something wrong?

I believe you can talk to me any time you want but you are right, I don't deal in trivial things. The hair on your head has to have significance.

 

[viole]

Why does God act as if he is non existent?

Isn't that obvious?

Ciao

- viole