Why does god rely so heavily on faith?

[waitasec]

Humans do what you are saying. I doubt whether you have ever met a true believer.

why would you assume that? you don't know me.
what about those parents who denied their children of their meds because
the scriptures told them god would do the healing.
mark 16:18
Faith Healers Responsible For Child Deaths Under Proposed Oregon Bill

would you stand there and say these are not true believers?
now their children are dead and i don't even want to think about the pain they must have endured...what happened to their rights?

There is no stepping on the rights of non believers.

well of course you say that, your rights aren't being infringed upon
same sex marriages is not a civil rights issue...?
how about the use of contraceptives...
if you remember, not too long ago women couldn't vote what about divorce...still frowned upon in the catholic sphere.
oh yeah we have james dobson who mistakenly advised women to stay married to their abusive husbands.

There is a case for a debate on morals. If all manner of groups were given free reign we would be taken over by criminal gangs, sexually immoral and corrupt people. The strongest the roughest, the toughest would control.

ever been to sweden or norway...
why is it that in these secular countries you find lower crime rate, abortion, teen pregnancies, STD's

Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side' - Times Online

But What I say is, this that I speak of has got nothing to do with controlling other people but a transformational experience only.

well trust me, if the religious kept their business to themselves we woudn't be having ithis conversation...

 

[AllanV]

why would you assume that? you don't know me.
what about those parents who denied their children of their meds because
the scriptures told them god would do the healing.
mark 16:18

I know where you are coming from. Writing what I have been has stirred me up a bit.

A local Church was visited, without going into details, but I just cant do it. I would become screwed up.

They are taken over by something and it isn't gentle. I am not sure what can be done.

There are a lot of issues in our societies. But I am not qualified to give advice.

I can see both sides of the discussion.

All that has been said by me is that there is a way to get passed the personality traits because they are energetic and provoke conflict. There is something in mans abilities that needs to change. Christians may be saying something similar but theirs is from an intellectual point of view and they are part of the problem.

If I don't actively pursue what has been talked about then my personality and behavior is prone to falter as well.

I don't actually like the word Christian, it brings up the wrong reaction in me. All the pastors come out of similar Bible schools and preach out of their own power and it is hypnotic suggestion or peer pressure in a culture. Everyone learns their antics from each other.

People outside the church aren't much different when they form clubs, parties, gangs, packs, groups, they just have a different story with different actions. Human pack mentality prevails. Some are good some are bad.
I would say neither of us is in a position to do much about the problem, and I can honestly say that I mustn't get worked up about it. It is unhealthy for me.

 

[AllanV]

ever been to sweden or norway...
why is it that in these secular countries you find lower crime rate, abortion, teen pregnancies, STD's

Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side' - Times Online

well trust me, if the religious kept their business to themselves we woudn't be having ithis conversation...

Reading that article brought to mind that most people attending church do not actually believe. When certain things occur in Church, body language and general demeanor would suggest there is some falseness and resistance. Everyone has variations and own ideas from the leadership down. This could be seen as safe intelligent thing to do. But this builds a certain mental condition and it is best to keep away from the situation.

The scriptures state that a rebellious mind is prone to witchcraft.

Now witchcraft is a strong word but what does it mean. There is an active power used out of the mind that is able to penetrate the subconscious of another. Peer pressure, hypnotic suggestion and mind control are being encouraged because the people are passively taking part. Attention span is short in most, therefore any incoming mind, brain, information is energetic rather than intellectual. There will be a greater bonding in body sensations.

The mind micro manages all feelings and sensations in the body via the brain. The mind also places emphasis of meaning in speech and reflects personality, even showing up in body language. If a person is pretending to believe something but is holding own variation then the mind is learning to be more empowered in the wrong way. This mind power will cause all manner of awkward situations and strong emotional bonding and manipulation to get what it wants. And what this is, is to make another person feel a certain way. A certain indulgence and satisfaction occurs when this is accomplished.

This is seen in the behavior of the most religious especially Christianity.

This is actually the reinforcement of behavior that the Bible is explaining needs to be overcome.

Churches are not the only institutions that have this problem. It is a good case for doing more practical work rather than being self absorbed and having too much emphasis on higher learning. When a person goes out into the wider world they may be vulnerable or easily influenced by body energy and fall into temptation.

This thread asks "why does God rely so heavily on faith?"
Faith is required to make a transformation from something that is familiar to something that is unfamiliar and cant be comprehended from the present viewpoint.
Faith can increase. The idea is to build on a belief by talking out and this will take a person all the way to the knowledge of God. From the consciousness of man and the knowing he has with all the behavior as seen, to the knowing of God. This can only be seen in a new nature, with different behavior.

The teaching in the Bible is correct. If it is understood by the Church leadership, but I doubt it, or even if they are choosing to ignore it, then there is going to be a show down eventually. Especially if the influences on a society are negative.

 

[waitasec]

People outside the church aren't much different when they form clubs, parties, gangs, packs, groups, they just have a different story with different actions. Human pack mentality prevails. Some are good some are bad.
I would say neither of us is in a position to do much about the problem, and I can honestly say that I mustn't get worked up about it. It is unhealthy for me.

i can appreciate what you said and i agree to this especially...

Human pack mentality prevails. Some are good some are bad.

human nature depends on the feeling of being comforted and and an undue sense of importance. we are an arrogant species. and i believe that when a group of people think they are on gods side, it can lead to dangerous situations that history has revealed...please understand i do not want to single out the religious, it just so happens we are on a religious forum.
people who are closed minded and biased are the ones i'm talking about.

i disagree with:

I would say neither of us is in a position to do much about the problem

the position is to start a dialogue...

 

[waitasec]

Reading that article brought to mind that most people attending church do not actually believe. When certain things occur in Church, body language and general demeanor would suggest there is some falseness and resistance. Everyone has variations and own ideas from the leadership down. This could be seen as safe intelligent thing to do. But this builds a certain mental condition and it is best to keep away from the situation.

The scriptures state that a rebellious mind is prone to witchcraft.

Now witchcraft is a strong word but what does it mean. There is an active power used out of the mind that is able to penetrate the subconscious of another. Peer pressure, hypnotic suggestion and mind control are being encouraged because the people are passively taking part. Attention span is short in most, therefore any incoming mind, brain, information is energetic rather than intellectual. There will be a greater bonding in body sensations.

The mind micro manages all feelings and sensations in the body via the brain. The mind also places emphasis of meaning in speech and reflects personality, even showing up in body language. If a person is pretending to believe something but is holding own variation then the mind is learning to be more empowered in the wrong way. This mind power will cause all manner of awkward situations and strong emotional bonding and manipulation to get what it wants. And what this is, is to make another person feel a certain way. A certain indulgence and satisfaction occurs when this is accomplished.

This is seen in the behavior of the most religious especially Christianity.

This is actually the reinforcement of behavior that the Bible is explaining needs to be overcome.

Churches are not the only institutions that have this problem. It is a good case for doing more practical work rather than being self absorbed and having too much emphasis on higher learning. When a person goes out into the wider world they may be vulnerable or easily influenced by body energy and fall into temptation.

This thread asks "why does God rely so heavily on faith?"
Faith is required to make a transformation from something that is familiar to something that is unfamiliar and cant be comprehended from the present viewpoint.
Faith can increase. The idea is to build on a belief by talking out and this will take a person all the way to the knowledge of God. From the consciousness of man and the knowing he has with all the behavior as seen, to the knowing of God. This can only be seen in a new nature, with different behavior.

The teaching in the Bible is correct. If it is understood by the Church leadership, but I doubt it, or even if they are choosing to ignore it, then there is going to be a show down eventually. Especially if the influences on a society are negative.

all i have to say...
1 thess 4:11 "and to make it your ambition to lead a quiet life: You should mind your own business and work with your hands, just as we told you,"

 

[AllanV]

i disagree with:
Quote:
I would say neither of us is in a position to do much about the problem

the position is to start a dialogue...

I have been in a few punch ups in my time but this is different.

The nature presented when energized by God is perfect and unresponsive to any intent to wound or be wounded emotionally. To be in that state one would be especially vulnerable to violence because to get there one is physically compromised.

The hope is that the reward is immortality though.

"Minding own business", could be self employed rather than working for some one else or a slave.

 

[Oneatatime]

Supernatural claims can't be proven or disproven so the only thing the religious have left is faith.

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

Because the more utterly implausible a certain entity happens to be, the higher the magnitude of "faith" is required for one to believe it. I personally find a Biblical god to be extremely implausible and to believe in such entity it would IMHO require such faith of such an extraordinary degree I find impossible to come to terms with.

 

[AllanV]

Supernatural claims can't be proven or disproven so the only thing the religious have left is faith.

Faith is required to make a transformation from something that is familiar to something that is unfamiliar and cant be comprehended from the present viewpoint.

The belief has to change and the personal point of view will also. This is not about being taken over by another human idea or imperfect person. It does not pay to let any defenses down and to maintain some intelligence.
The problem is people let their defences down and they can get emmotionally hurt. Some will wound and some are wounded.
All humans are caught up in life as we know it. To survive strength is needed.

This is opposite to the divine nature. It is very gentle. There is a transition from human to divine. It is in the mind and therefore there is some resistance.

 

[AllanV]

Because the more utterly implausible a certain entity happens to be, the higher the magnitude of "faith" is required for one to believe it. I personally find a Biblical god to be extremely implausible and to believe in such entity it would IMHO require such faith of such an extraordinary degree I find impossible to come to terms with.

Quiet observation or even perhaps active participation could tell someone that there is something influencing man. It would be easy to say every one has personal behavior and there is no influence.
Psychology can show that behavior is predictable in a situation. This is why a society is the way it is with rules etc.

Therefore everyone is influenced in their life experience somehow and it is within certain parameters. This could be regarded as a spirit.

There is another spirit that can only be found in a the influence of a gentle nature.

 

[waitasec]

Faith is required to make a transformation from something that is familiar to something that is unfamiliar and cant be comprehended from the present viewpoint.

The belief has to change and the personal point of view will also. This is not about being taken over by another human idea or imperfect person. It does not pay to let any defenses down and to maintain some intelligence.
The problem is people let their defences down and they can get emmotionally hurt. Some will wound and some are wounded.
All humans are caught up in life as we know it. To survive strength is needed.

This is opposite to the divine nature. It is very gentle. There is a transition from human to divine. It is in the mind and therefore there is some resistance.

the same can be said about delusions
what else can make a person blow themselves up in a crowd, fly into buildings, speak in tongues and have the audacity to tell 2 ppl they can't get married because their super charged spiritual antenna is tuned to a superior morality frequency that says it's wrong...
:areyoucra

 

[AllanV]

the same can be said about delusions
what else can make a person blow themselves up in a crowd, fly into buildings, speak in tongues and have the audacity to tell 2 ppl they can't get married because their super charged spiritual antenna is tuned to a superior morality frequency that says it's wrong...
:areyoucra

They are taken over and molded into the belief of some one else, and that person has agendas. These may only be the human desire to do what is best, but it is in the persons own finite mind.

There is a way to have a personal transformation, the truth is known and then the end of such people is known.

 

[waitasec]

They are taken over and molded into the belief of some one else, and that person has agendas.

absolutely. what do you think i'm talking about?

These may only be the human desire to do what is best, but it is in the persons own finite mind.

exactly, that's is why religion should be a personal matter

There is a way to have a personal transformation, the truth is known and then the end of such people is known.

so far all i see are people who think they are morally superior and morally justified because they are chosen....with nothing to back it up. this extraordinary claim of having a relationship with the a divine creator who's concerned about the daily lives of humans in particular....is.... delusional.

 

[Evandr]

You say “my faith will grow”; well I just have to ask, my faith in what? I hate to sound like a kill-joy, but you are giving me instructions based on your religious beliefs. How do I know your instructions are correct? There are many religious beliefs on this planet and they don’t all agree. How do I know which one is correct, or even if any of them are correct (which I highly doubt)? Will the creator punish me for not choosing the correct religion?

When it comes to religious belief, numbers don’t impress me. I really don’t care if every single person on the face of this planet believes in one particular religion; that does not make it true. One thing about religion is that no one knows more than anyone else about it. There may be experts on particular religious beliefs, but there are no experts on what the actual truth is. You are free to conclude whatever you want and no one can prove you right or wrong.

Planting the "seed" does not come according to one religion or another, the seed is simply the desire to know the truth and a willingness to try to be led. It starts with gaining an understanding that God Lives and Jesus is the Christ; there is plenty of non-denominational ground for investigation in that and is founded in sincere prayer and responsible investigation.

The key is to simply try the Lord with a heart that really wants to have a real and true answer and is willing to listen with that heart and not the head. What is good will feel good and right and what is not will confound leaving more questions than answers. After discerning that then following those feelings to greater and greater accomplishments in the gaining of knowledge will eventually make manifest what and where the truth is. Is will not happen overnight but it will happen if you really want it to and can clear your mind of pre-conceived ideas born of scorn, laughter, and haughty indignation with regard to what most in Christianity simply do not understand.

Faith is the result of knowledge received to your spirit from the Holy ghost; it is not the same type of understanding that comes from temporal trial and error in a scientific vein; whe one received knowledge from the spirit is is impressed into a state of sure knowledge even though one who receives it cannot pass that understanding to another, each must gain it for themselves.

 

[Anonymouse]

A God who relies on faith is an interesting paradox for the believer. It has resulted in people making excuses for their gods as well as exposing their own methods about how they conduct, encourage and perceive relationships.

What is ironic is that many religions believe God to be a being of truth and honesty yet they have no evidence that God actually displays these attributes. This should be the first sign that something is amiss, yet the desire to want God to be righteous coupled with their aspiration to be inspired to imitate this goodness can sometimes cloud many issues.

What many believers do not realize is that if God is truthful and straightforward, God does not have to introduce the concept of faith to humans. It is not a requirement to knowing, understanding or believing in God. If God was/is candid and forthright, the only decision necessary for humans to make would be if they (truly, honestly) desired to encourage a relationship with this entity. A God who relies on faith is a suspicious personality, a being who may have something to hide (or hasn't told us everything), a deity who doesn’t mind if they are misunderstood. This doesn’t sound like the divine being that many religions are trying to promote and yet faith has promoted many interpretations. This is not conducive to truth or getting to know God truthfully.

 

[waitasec]

A God who relies on faith is an interesting paradox for the believer. It has resulted in people making excuses for their gods as well as exposing their own methods about how they conduct, encourage and perceive relationships.

What is ironic is that many religions believe God to be a being of truth and honesty yet they have no evidence that God actually displays these attributes. This should be the first sign that something is amiss, yet the desire to want God to be righteous coupled with their aspiration to be inspired to imitate this goodness can sometimes cloud many issues.

What many believers do not realize is that if God is truthful and straightforward, God does not have to introduce the concept of faith to humans. It is not a requirement to knowing, understanding or believing in God. If God was/is candid and forthright, the only decision necessary for humans to make would be if they (truly, honestly) desired to encourage a relationship with this entity. A God who relies on faith is a suspicious personality, a being who may have something to hide (or hasn't told us everything), a deity who doesn’t mind if they are misunderstood. This doesn’t sound like the divine being that many religions are trying to promote and yet faith has promoted many interpretations. This is not conducive to truth or getting to know God truthfully.

i wouldn't change a thing except for what i highlighted...(it's probably a typo)
a deity who minds if it is misunderstood is a suspicious personality indeed....

 

[outhouse]

without faith, there is no abrahamic god.

If there was proof, something not mythical. Faith would not be needed.

 

[Evandr]

A God who relies on faith is an interesting paradox for the believer. It has resulted in people making excuses for their gods as well as exposing their own methods about how they conduct, encourage and perceive relationships.

What is ironic is that many religions believe God to be a being of truth and honesty yet they have no evidence that God actually displays these attributes. This should be the first sign that something is amiss, yet the desire to want God to be righteous coupled with their aspiration to be inspired to imitate this goodness can sometimes cloud many issues.

What many believers do not realize is that if God is truthful and straightforward, God does not have to introduce the concept of faith to humans. It is not a requirement to knowing, understanding or believing in God. If God was/is candid and forthright, the only decision necessary for humans to make would be if they (truly, honestly) desired to encourage a relationship with this entity. A God who relies on faith is a suspicious personality, a being who may have something to hide (or hasn't told us everything), a deity who doesn’t mind if they are misunderstood. This doesn’t sound like the divine being that many religions are trying to promote and yet faith has promoted many interpretations. This is not conducive to truth or getting to know God truthfully.

You have formed some pretty strong opinions about God without having the foggiest idea about what God is accomplishing by setting things up the way He has to. Our Heavenly Father is running us through our paces to see who will warrant wielding the same power He posses and that means having to deal with a certain degree of affliction, faith, and a demonstration of who we are on the inside; there is also a lot of joy and happiness to be had but trial is the primary purpose for mortality. We have been given the tools necessary to make things a lot easier than they currently are but mankind as a whole is simply not wise enough to see what is right before him.

I'm sure you probably have heard how the breeding stock of thoroughbred horses is made. The horses are raised to know and respond to the master's voice and then when it is time to be tested they are denied food and water for a few days after which time they are released just within ear shot of their masters who then call them. As they run toward their master’s voice they must pass food and water. Those who stop to eat and drink are put out to pasture while those who answer the call regardless of hunger and thirst become the breeding stock. All are greatly valued and treated well but only those who demonstrate a superior attitude about doing what they have been brought up to do will sire the next generation.

We are being tested to see if doing as God would have us do, that which He would do himself if in our place (indeed He has been where we are and passed the test and is thusly our God), is part of who we are regardless of the prize. If it were as you say it should be then all of creation would be a grand waste of time and effort. Mortality isn’t about having it your way any more than a college exam is about you deciding what the questions will be and how the test is administered. Your whole attitude and opinion about God and how things are set up is simply an indication that you would ignore the master’s voice and stop to eat and drink.

 

[waitasec]

You have formed some pretty strong opinions about God without having the foggiest idea about what God is accomplishing by setting things up the way He has to. Our Heavenly Father is running us through our paces to see who will warrant wielding the same power He posses and that means having to deal with a certain degree of affliction, faith, and a demonstration of who we are on the inside; there is also a lot of joy and happiness to be had but trial is the primary purpose for mortality. We have been given the tools necessary to make things a lot easier than they currently are but mankind as a whole is simply not wise enough to see what is right before him.

I'm sure you probably have heard how the breeding stock of thoroughbred horses is made. The horses are raised to know and respond to the master's voice and then when it is time to be tested they are denied food and water for a few days after which time they are released just within ear shot of their masters who then call them. As they run toward their master’s voice they must pass food and water. Those who stop to eat and drink are put out to pasture while those who answer the call regardless of hunger and thirst become the breeding stock. All are greatly valued and treated well but only those who demonstrate a superior attitude about doing what they have been brought up to do will sire the next generation.

We are being tested to see if doing as God would have us do, that which He would do himself if in our place (indeed He has been where we are and passed the test and is thusly our God), is part of who we are regardless of the prize. If it were as you say it should be then all of creation would be a grand waste of time and effort. Mortality isn’t about having it your way any more than a college exam is about you deciding what the questions will be and how the test is administered. Your whole attitude and opinion about God and how things are set up is simply an indication that you would ignore the master’s voice and stop to eat and drink.

why would we be tested...? of course the ones who have faith would be the ones with the audacity to say such a thing...



i especially like bit bit where you compare the faithful with thoroughbred horses...

who demonstrate a superior attitude about doing what they have been brought up to do

:biglaugh:

and you know this how? through this ambiguous state of self justification called: faith

 

[Anonymouse]

i wouldn't change a thing except for what i highlighted...(it's probably a typo)
a deity who minds if it is misunderstood is a suspicious personality indeed....

When I mentioned

“a deity who doesn’t mind if they are misunderstood.”

I meant to infer that faith is open to many values and interpretations. If there is a “supreme” god who is concerned that people only receive a thorough and accurate knowledge about them, then telling humans to have faith would be an ineffective way of getting to know and understand the truth about Him. Humans have an uncanny ability for misinterpretation (God should know this).

Relating to humans (empirically) in a direct and truthful way could cement human relations and remove all doubt and faith thus making room for more honest and important decisions.

We already know that there are many different religions and they have many interpretations and diversions about gods and their agendas. One could easily conclude that if there is one (true) God, that He does not mind that there are so many misunderstandings about Him or His followers. We may also assume that this God is quite care-less and quiet about correcting how He is perceived and how their faithful followers are treated.