If the god of the bible exsist, why does he not provide everyone with the evidence they require in order to accept his actuality? Why is it fair for god to hold nonbelievers "accountable" for refusing to accept his reality when he has the ability to present them with the evidence they need to be convinced? If it is god's primary desire that we all come to know him, come to love him and come to be with him in paradise, why does he not make his presence incontrovertibly apparent to everyone? Is it not the case that god withholds evidence that would cause some people to believe that he exists?
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Why does god withhold evidence?
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Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
The very WORST proselytizers are always the evangelical atheists.
Regards,
Scott
Regards,
Scott
DavyCrocket2003
Well-Known Member
Very good question. It is true that God could easily prove beyond doubt that he exists and that he is who he says he is. I believe that the reason he does not do this is for our sakes. For now, faith (there's that word again) is required. Those who exercise faith, can receive a knowledge of God and his doings. Eventually everyone will have been given a chance to seek out God, with just faith to go on at first. Some time after that, (i.e. the second coming) everyone will finally have incontrovertible proof that God exists and that we are his children.
Yes, it is good to believe in God when you have seen him, but it is even better when you have sought him out on your own without seeing him.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Why would you want to do that? Is my believing in God really affecting you one way or the other? I've never tried to get you (or any other atheist) to believe in Him. Is it too much to ask that you offer me the same courtesy?
Good point.
And the Bible says that only those who truly seek Him will find Him. Speaking for myself as a believer, there are still many instances where I think about the Trinity or some of the small things that might not 100% make sense in the Bible - (but this is human nature, to question things - but this can also blind us from finding the truth - problems i had), but finding answers to these questions strengthens my faith, as faith is far from simple . Some things might not be able for man to comprehend and I have slowly accepted this. How can I possibly understand how God created the earth? I can't b/c I am part of the creation and cannot understand how it was created. If there is no true accurate way of verbally explaining something then Jesus/God tries as best as possible even though it might cause confusion for us. (Genesis explains the process but not how it was actually created) Getting back to the question why would God want individuals that think they can do things without Him and never truly looked. If ppl think they don't need to truly seek and need Him, then i think he honors our wishes. If there was 100% evidence of God then what sort of free will would we have? Yes, we could still say we dont need Him (I dont know how/why anybody would possible do this if Hell is anyway like it is described in the Bible, so I really have a hard time considering this freee will").
One thing that I found was incredibly beneficial to my quest for the "truth", was looking at the mass amount of evidence for the Bible and its authors being credible and reliable. When I was an atheist, after about a year of searching for the truth, I found myself always looking at the evidence to discredit the Bible and never looking at the evidence for the Bible. And I soon found that so much of the evidence against the Bible could be easily explained.
I guess my quote relates to this topic a little b/c God would essentially be taking away our ability to look at something and make a honest decision.
According to the Bible,(Romans chapter 9) God not only withholds evidence but also decides who will believe and whose hearts he will harden. After reading several books on religion, I decided to go back and re-read the Bible. Some of it has been disturbing.
Buttercup
Veteran Member
You know, I never understand why people who believe in god think that those who don't believe are being snarky. Why is that? What is snotty about being unsure? What is arrogant about wanting to see God?
Let's say I end up believing in God. Which is the right God? The questions go on and on....is anyone EVER sure for sure?
DavyCrocket2003
Well-Known Member
:clap Exactly!
I would suggest that a testimony of the "truth" needs to be built upon faith in Jesus Christ with a confirmation from the Holy Ghost. I think that a spiritual witness of truth is infinitely more strong than any "proof" anyone can come up with. I mean, the mind can be tricked. Our eyes can be deceived. Science can get things wrong. Proofs can be disproved. But a witness from the Holy Ghost is in a completely different class; it speaks straight to your spirit!
So is it your position that written records are the best way for god to promote his agenda?
Do you feel mankind would not be better off if god were to make frequent personal appearances?
Read Plato.
I think he meant this as simply being a possiblity b/c in retrospect of my journey, I know this to be true.
And yes, we could come up with an infinite amount of questions; however, I dont see how many of the questions coincide with our logic.
In many ways, religion is man-made, but this does not mean that the the foundation of a religion is simply man-made. My first thought when examining religions was that if I am to believe that God(s) created the universe, then I am reasonably sure that God would have left evidence to the reason behind the creation. My thought process was a creator would not make a creation without such evidence/clues. For example, the numerous prophecies in Isaiah.
And I do believe the author of "90 minutes in heaven" is SURE. I''m sure others will disagree as the writer is a pastor, but I was 100% convienced that he was authentic.
Again, I think personal 'appearances' would make the proof undeniable - which would compromise our free will.
I do think he makes personal contact with mankind, as he is with us, but don't you think it is atleast possible that we don't view God as the source of this contact?
Buttercup
Veteran Member
I find it extremely difficult to believe in god through other people's experiences. It wasn't my experience, I don't know this man, why should I believe him?
Buttercup
Veteran Member
We don't have free will if you believe in hell. We have an extorted choice in that case.
Free will would be to chose without consequence. I'm really surprised that many Christians don't see that. How can it be free will when if you don't chose God's way it's to hell for you?
As I alluded to in a previous post, how do you reconcile free will to believe with Romans chapter 9. Do you think God chooses to harden the hearts of certain people to prove his power through his retribution?
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Well, why believe in 'hell'? It's a metaphor for the longing for God denied within oneself. It's not a place, it's not a confinement, one can leave it at anytime or be in it at anytime.
Same with heaven.
So, should worship of God be from fear of punishment or hope of reward?
No.
"WORSHIP thou God in such wise that if thy worship lead thee to the fire, no alteration in thine adoration would be produced, and so likewise if thy recompense should be paradise. Thus and thus alone should be the worship which befitteth the one True God. Shouldst thou worship Him because of fear, this would be unseemly in the sanctified Court of His presence, and could not be regarded as an act by thee dedicated to the Oneness of His Being. Or if thy gaze should be on paradise, and thou shouldst worship Him while cherishing such a hope, thou wouldst make God's creation a partner with Him, notwithstanding the fact that paradise is desired by men.
Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God. That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise.
Although when true worship is offered, the worshipper is delivered from the fire, and entereth the paradise of God's good-pleasure, yet such should not be the motive of his act. However, God's favour and grace ever flow in accordance with the exigencies of His inscrutable wisdom."
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 77)
Regards,
Scott
I think Booko was referring to the passage in the gospel where it says, "A light came into the world, but men hid from it because they loved the snarkiness",
or something like that.