Why does god withhold evidence?

[Wandered Off]

If there was 100% evidence of God then what sort of free will would we have?

I can't understand this reasoning. In what sense could a lack of information possibly enhance free will? That is a non-sequitur.

Can you consider yourself free to choose an option you aren't even sure exists? What kind of freedom is that, especially if punishment is meted out for making the 'wrong' choice? Uncertainty is not freedom nor does uncertainty enhance freedom in any way I can tell. Quite the opposite, if disastrous consequences are on the line.

 

[Panda]

Why can't he like you know float down from heaven and say hi?

 

[Popeyesays]

Why can't he like you know float down from heaven and say hi?

Well, my contention is that everything I see, touch or feel, taste or smell is a token of God. So, in my opinion, He not does that from time to time, but He is doing it right at this moment--oops, there He is again! And again!

You get the idea.

regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

I can't understand this reasoning. In what sense could a lack of information possibly enhance free will? That is a non-sequitur.

Can you consider yourself free to choose an option you aren't even sure exists? What kind of freedom is that, especially if punishment is meted out for making the 'wrong' choice? Uncertainty is not freedom nor does uncertainty enhance freedom in any way I can tell. Quite the opposite, if disastrous consequences are on the line.

"CXXV. O My brother! When a true seeker determineth to take the step of search in the path leading unto the knowledge of the Ancient of Days, he must, before all else, cleanse his heart, which is the seat of the revelation of the inner mysteries of God, from the obscuring dust of all acquired knowledge, and the allusions of the embodiments of satanic fancy. He must purge his breast, which is the sanctuary of the abiding love of the Beloved, of every defilement, and sanctify his soul from all that pertaineth to water and clay, from all shadowy and ephemeral attachments. He must so cleanse his heart that no remnant of either love or hate may linger therein, lest that love blindly incline him to error, or that hate repel him away from the truth. Even as thou dost witness in this Day how most of the people, because of such love and hate, are bereft of the immortal Face, have strayed far from the Embodiments of the Divine mysteries, and, shepherdless, are roaming through the wilderness of oblivion and error
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 264)

hate to hit you with a quote, but He says t better than I.

Regards,
Scott

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 264)

 

[Booko]

I can't understand this reasoning. In what sense could a lack of information possibly enhance free will? That is a non-sequitur.

It's your assumption there's a lack of information. Another possible assumption is that there is evidence, but it is highly subjective.

Can you consider yourself free to choose an option you aren't even sure exists?

Clearly you have chosen to believe the option does not exist. If there existed a God and She left you with proof positive of that existence, then you would have no choice left. That's the implication of "proof positive."

What kind of freedom is that, especially if punishment is meted out for making the 'wrong' choice? Uncertainty is not freedom nor does uncertainty enhance freedom in any way I can tell. Quite the opposite, if disastrous consequences are on the line.

You're making the assumption that punishment is meted out for making a "wrong" choice, and the wrong choice is presumably choosing not to believe in God.

I consider that simplistic on its face.

And I would point out that all theists do not believe in that sort of "punishment" in the first place.

If you choose to believe exactly what the theists you so dislike believe, specifically the "eternal damnation" part, I would suggest that is your problem and not the problem of any God that might exist.

You can decide to toss the false dichotomy overboard any time you like.

 

[Popeyesays]

Booko, I'd frubal you for that, but the system won't let me.

Way to put it in a nutshell.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Wandered Off]

It's your assumption there's a lack of information. Another possible assumption is that there is evidence, but it is highly subjective.

Pretty much I think we mean almost the same thing. It's not that there is no information, but it's that we are forced to rely on faith, which means the information's reliability cannot be tested. If some kind of decision is required from that, then I contend we would have freer will with more reliable information.

Clearly you have chosen to believe the option does not exist. If there existed a God and She left you with proof positive of that existence, then you would have no choice left. That's the implication of "proof positive."

I wasn't talking about mere belief in God's existence. Someone earlier said that having proof would eliminate free will, which I took -perhaps incorrectly- to be the free will to choose 'heaven or hell'. That strikes me as a fallacy. A lack of proof would not eliminate free will in any way. Proof would eliminate belief, but belief and the ability to choose are not the same. If the free will being eliminated was whether to believe in God's existence, then I can see how proof would eliminate that, but this was not my intended argument.

I am arguing more or less against a widespread Abrahamic view that we supposedly were given some kind of choice we had to make on faith alone, and if we got it wrong we are punished eternally. This was the assumption specifically stated the OP. I know it's not your view or that of many other theists, so I'm not sure we're on different "sides" here.

You're making the assumption that punishment is meted out for making a "wrong" choice, and the wrong choice is presumably choosing not to believe in God.

For purposes of this thread, which mentioned in the OP the God of the Bible holding unbelievers accountable for non-belief, I do make this assumption. My own beliefs, however, do not hold this assumption, as I conclude it to be a human invention. I think we agree that this is a flawed assumption, and I was pointing out one reason why I think so.

And I would point out that all theists do not believe in that sort of "punishment" in the first place.

Very true. Again, I intended my argument to be in context with the OP with those who do hold that belief. It would not apply to you or many other theists.

If you choose to believe exactly what the theists you so dislike believe, specifically the "eternal damnation" part, I would suggest that is your problem and not the problem of any God that might exist.

I firmly believe the problem resides with humans who created that particular theology and not with God. Booko, I'm not sure where you get the idea that I dislike theists. I may dislike some of the conclusions they reach, but I don't mean to be hostile. If I gave that impression, please accept my apology.

You can decide to toss the false dichotomy overboard any time you like.

I have, and I was trying to show why I did.

 

[Popeyesays]

Good for you, Wandered Off!

Free will has nothing to do with Heaven and Hell. Heaven and Hell do not really exist as physical places anyway.

Free will is the choice to follow or not follow. Reward and Punishment are masks between man and God:
"Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God. That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise."
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 77)

Regards,
Scott

 

[logician]

"I've never tried to get you (or any other atheist) to believe in Him."

Maybe you haven't, but countless do-gooder evangelistic Xians certainly have.

 

[LogDog]

Good for you, Wandered Off!

Free will has nothing to do with Heaven and Hell. Heaven and Hell do not really exist as physical places anyway.

Free will is the choice to follow or not follow. Reward and Punishment are masks between man and God:
"Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God. That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise."
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 77)

Regards,
Scott

If heaven and hell do not exist as physical places, does that mean they don't exist at all, in any form? If so, would you please explain what a nonbeliever as well as a good xtian can expect to experience in the afterlife?

 

[Popeyesays]

Heaven and Hell are states of being. One can be immersed in either while still breathing air in this life.

The next life? Next world?

When you were in your mother's womb you had eyes, ears, nose, fingers, tongue yet none of those things were really needed there. They only became useful in life OUT of your mother's womb.

We develop qualities and attributes in this life that will be of value in the next. Where is that next world? As close to you as the pulse in your carotid.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Katzpur]

Is my believing in God really affecting you one way or the other?

Yes.

How so? I'm kind of flattered that it does, since what you believe doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to me. Anyway, tell me how my believing in God affects you.

 

[Prometheus]

How so? I'm kind of flattered that it does, since what you believe doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to me. Anyway, tell me how my believing in God affects you.

Your beliefs affect your actions and your actions affect others. If you vote and that vote is, in any way, influenced by your moral outlook and that moral outlook is, in any way, influenced by your theism, then you're theism affects me.

 

[may]

If heaven and hell do not exist as physical places, does that mean they don't exist at all, in any form? If so, would you please explain what a nonbeliever as well as a good xtian can expect to experience in the afterlife?

AFTERLIFE? what religious teachers have you been listening too. we all go to dust unbelievers and believers , and those who are in the memory of God will be resurrected into a paradise earth at a future time , and that will include the believers and the unbelievers
Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment John 5;28-29 the judgement will start from then onwards , not on the things we did before we died , but on the things we do from then onwards . those who are classed as righteous would be the believers who died with a belief in God , they would have already been doing Gods will before they died ,so they are resurrected to life . the unrighteous would be the unbelievers, but they after being resurrected would have to conform to living their lifes in the ways of God . and they to could be judged worthy to live forever in the paradise earth . many people have died in ignorance about who the true God is , and now they will have a chance to put them selves inline with Gods purpose for the earth .

 

[wizanda]

AFTERLIFE?

what religious teachers have you been listening too. we all go to dust unbelievers and believers , and those who are in the memory of God will be resurrected into a paradise earth at a future time , and that will include the believers and the unbelievers

Rev 21:22-27
(22) And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
(23) And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
(24) And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
(25) And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
(26) And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
(27) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

= Heaven or real name Oneness!

Isa 8:18-20
(18) Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mountZion.
(19) And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
(20) To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Dan 12:2
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Mat 25:25-27
(25) And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
(26) His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
(27) Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

On subject of the thread, people don't look hard enough, they let man teach them, who makes profits before prophets...

 

[may]

Dan 12:2
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

"And there will be many of those asleep in the ground of dust who will wake up, these to indefinitely lasting life and those to reproaches and to indefinitely lasting abhorrence."—Daniel 12:2.​

These words may well remind us of Jesus Christ’s moving promise of a general resurrection. (John 5:28, 29) What a thrilling hope!
Is there another kind of resurrection? In the Bible, resurrection sometimes has a spiritual significance. For example, both Ezekiel and Revelation contain prophetic passages that apply to a spiritual revival, or resurrection.—Ezekiel 37:1-14; Revelation 11:3, 7, 11. and yes, in this time of the end they are shining as brightly as can be . and they are bringing the many to righteousness,
And the ones having insight will shine like the brightness of the expanse; and those who are bringing the many to righteousness, like the stars to time indefinite, even forever. daniel 12;3
Sadly, though, not all remained in a spiritually alive state. Those who after being awakened chose to reject the Messianic King and who left God’s service earned for themselves the ‘reproaches and indefinitely lasting abhorrence’ described at Daniel 12:2. (Hebrews 6:4-6) but no worries,
revelation 7;9-10 and the gathering goes on , those with insight are shining brightly.

 

[wizanda]

God doesn't withhold evidence men do, and people just like May is doing....posted enough scriptures explaining where John is fake, Paul (Hebrews)....
Explained why Yeshua's name change is a cuss instead....yet does she want to change to help others?

 

[may]

Mat 25:25-27
(25) And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
(26) His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
(27) Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

quote]
The talents represent the commission to make disciples of Christ. matthew 28 ;19-20 matthew 24;14
Along with this commission goes the highly privileged opportunity of acting as ambassadors for Christ, the King, to represent the Kingdom to all the nations of the world.—Ephesians 6:19, 20; 2 Corinthians 5:20. so then ,
When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left............................are we working along with the channel that Jesus is using matthew 24;45-47 or are we rebellious like a goat, and do not help christs brothers . choices choices choices .
No longer do we find the sluggish "evil slave" class preaching "this good news of the kingdom." Rather, they specialize upon their personal salvation instead of the interests of God’s Kingdom. They now find themselves in "the darkness outside," where the world of mankind is. Their symbolic talent has been taken away from them and has been given to the class that has shown the willingness to use that talent during the remaining part of this "conclusion of the system of things." yes Jesus came back from his journey abroad so to speak ,in 1914 and yes the faithful ones were seen to be doing what Jesus told them to do before he went on his journey matthew 28;19-20 .................... matthew 24;45-47 its all happening in the time of the end , so when Jesus arrives with all the angels, will we be a sheep or will we be a goat ................?????????

 

[wizanda]

Talents are something God gave you at birth.....

We would call these skills!

 

[may]

Rev 21:22-27
(22) And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
(23) And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
(24) And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
(25) And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
(26) And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
(27) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

quote]
throughout the last days, angels have been guarding the congregation of anointed Christians, which becomes New Jerusalem, from Babylonish contamination.—Matthew 13:41.