Buttercup
Veteran Member
Aren't you quoting a type of heaven and hell with this verse?
"Although when true worship is offered, the worshipper is delivered from the fire, and entereth the paradise of God's good-pleasure...."
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Why does god withhold evidence?
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"Although when true worship is offered, the worshipper is delivered from the fire, and entereth the paradise of God's good-pleasure...."
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
What's the motive for true worship?
One worships God because God is worthy of worship.
If you hope for heaven or fear hell, then you are not offering true worship.
God will cover your bets through infinite grace and mercy--don't sweat it.
Now, this is still metaphoric heaven and hell, mind you. Heaven and hell are not places.
"The root cause of wrongdoing is ignorance, and we must therefore hold fast to the tools of perception and knowledge. Good character must be taught. Light must be spread afar, so that, in the school of humanity, all may acquire the heavenly characteristics of the spirit, and see for themselves beyond any doubt that there is no fiercer hell, no more fiery abyss, than to possess a character that is evil and unsound; no more darksome pit nor loathsome torment than to show forth qualities which deserve to be condemned."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 136)
Regards,
Scott
One worships God because God is worthy of worship.
If you hope for heaven or fear hell, then you are not offering true worship.
God will cover your bets through infinite grace and mercy--don't sweat it.
Now, this is still metaphoric heaven and hell, mind you. Heaven and hell are not places.
"The root cause of wrongdoing is ignorance, and we must therefore hold fast to the tools of perception and knowledge. Good character must be taught. Light must be spread afar, so that, in the school of humanity, all may acquire the heavenly characteristics of the spirit, and see for themselves beyond any doubt that there is no fiercer hell, no more fiery abyss, than to possess a character that is evil and unsound; no more darksome pit nor loathsome torment than to show forth qualities which deserve to be condemned."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 136)
Regards,
Scott
Buttercup
Veteran Member
Ahhh, I like that. Thank you.
I'd echo Evmo in response to your first statement.
It seems to me that a belief in god is a prerequisite for believing he makes personal contact with mankind. It appears that god has provided you with what you've accepted as sufficient evidence for his actuality. For some reason, he won't do others the same service?
What contact?
Really? So the xtians who contradict your assertion are wrong?
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
i would say 'mistaken'. Because there is no maliciousness in it. They are too hung up on the literal and miss the implications.
Regards,
Scott
Prometheus
Semper Perconctor
To encourage skeptical minds.
Yes.
You have the right to believe what you wish for whatever reason you choose, but I have equal right to challenge you.
Mr. Hair
Renegade Cavalcade
Well, on one level I'm not sure we 'should' do anything...
But no, you shouldn't. Perhaps you should inform people that in your opinion there is no good reason to believe in God, but that's an entirely different kettle of cold-blooded aquatic vertebrate.
As to the OP; define 'evidence'.
McBell
Admiral Obvious
Because with proof, God loses plausible deniability.
i think its more like he allows them to harden their hearts, the same way he allowed pharoah to harden his heart , and in the end it is to show them his power and to have his name declared in all the earth, and in the end they will have to know that he is Jehovah . pharoah thought that he was better than the true God , and trying to outwit the true God will not be good . but as back in pharoahs day many attached themselves to Gods people and got through the red sea and on into the promised land so it is to day a GREAT CROWD of ones from all nations are going to get through the GREAT TRIBULATION and on into the paradise earth REVELATION 7;9-10
Smoke
Done here.
LOTS of people are sure for sure. That's the problem.
Years ago, a bar opened around the block from the mother of a friend of mine. She didn't like a bar being that close to her house, so she went over there and laid hands on the building and prayed for God to close the bar. A few weeks later, it burned. Almost every single person I know believes that God burned that bar.
One of my students mentioned that her mother is a prophet. Not one of those girls asked, "How do you know?" Their reactions fell into two categories: "Praise Jesus!" and "I need to ask her something."
It's easy to "know" when you set the bar so low.
fullyveiled muslimah
Evil incarnate!
I do not believe that any amount of proving, or visions, or Allah showing Himself will prove anything to those who simply do not wish to believe in it. I think it would cause more dissention if anything. In Quran Allah addresses giving a sign so clearly and the effect it would have on most people:
14. And even if We opened to them a gate from the heaven and they were to continue ascending thereto,
15. They would surely say: "Our eyes have been (as if) dazzled. Nay, we are a people bewitched."
Here Allah is telling that even if He had opened the very gates of heaven to show all, people's response would be that it was some sort of sham, or illusion. I just can't see people accepting the existance of God even if given some grand show of power, or revealing Himself "physically".
14. And even if We opened to them a gate from the heaven and they were to continue ascending thereto,
15. They would surely say: "Our eyes have been (as if) dazzled. Nay, we are a people bewitched."
Here Allah is telling that even if He had opened the very gates of heaven to show all, people's response would be that it was some sort of sham, or illusion. I just can't see people accepting the existance of God even if given some grand show of power, or revealing Himself "physically".
Booko
Deviled Hen
Booko
Deviled Hen
There's a difference between "informing" people and ramming it down their throats while simultaneously avoiding considering any other possibilities at all.
Booko
Deviled Hen
I'm reminded I've always thought Jesus comment about "Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein."
What are some of the characteristics of a child? An open-mindedness not jammed with preconceived notions and prejudices. An innocent but very strong curiousity.
That doesn't mean we have forego all knowledge that has come before, but it does pay to avoid assuming that everything we've been told is correct actually is.
I'm not a Trinitanian myself, but no matter -- I know that there are things I didn't understand initially, but with more experience they made perfect sense. There are still some things I just don't get, but if my past experience has been to be patient and understanding may come, it makes sense to be patient on those things as well.
I've never understood why anyone would think it's valuable to be some sort of automaton. That's the implication of the question in this OP. Hey, if God revealed Himself in a way where it was as obvious as the sunlight, what would be the point?
And honestly...where would be the *fun* in the process of discovery?
What being that is sentient would consent to become a creature that does not think and moves purely by instinct? It's fine for the creatures that are that way by nature, but for us...frankly I'd call that a living hell.
Oh, you were an atheist once as well! I was as well. I started a study of all forms of religion with the express purpose of figuring out why so many people could be so deluded. By the time I was finished, the connections between them were so obvious to me, and I'd found the core message in them that was essentially the same, that I'd answered my own question -- and become a theist. Weird.
I'm a free will fan myself.
But to talk about subjects related to religion absent any religious terms is sometimes useful. The religious terms and assumptions so often get in the way of communication if the other parties do not believe in anything supernatural to begin with. I know that sometimes people take Paul's statement "be all things to all people" to mean not being upfront with people, but I take it to be good advice about just talking to people based on where they are and not where I am. If the point is to be understood, it pays to know your audience and speak accordingly. All that is is good public speaking and writing -- no more.
Booko
Deviled Hen
If that's what you think I meant, then I have communicated awfully and apologize for that.
A few points:
1. Many people who claim to believe in God are pretty darned snarky and act like they are God Himself. Now that's arrogance. History has shown that if these people have power, they can be very dangerous indeed. Atheists are right to be concerned about the dangers inherent in religion -- it's a very powerful motivating force, and when abused creates tragedies on a massive scale. If only more theists would be as wary, there would not be so much danger.
2. Many atheists simply haven't found any reason to believe in God, and are simply being sincere and honest with themselves. This is a problem?
I should hope that anyone, no matter what they believe to be true, would do the same.3. There are a few atheists, however, if a reason for considering a theistic possibility slapped them across the face, would not ponder the possibility for an instant, and a few of those will take their own vision on the road and insist we all must share in it or we cannot possibly be rational beings. This is no better than anyone from any other walk of life who is extremely closed minded. Once you know it all, you can't learn anything else.
Hopefully this is a little clearer, but if not, please ask.
Which is the right version of God? I couldn't tell you, but it strikes me that all of them are human constructs anyway and must be woefully incomplete. Assuming there exists something Infinite, I'm sure I don't know how something Finite could understand it fully. It's like asking the denizens of Flatland to understand our existence.
If for some reason you ever do find a reason to believe in God or something of that sort, you will have to figure out what's true for yourself. The rest of us, at most, might provide something from our own experience that might lead you in some direction.
As for me, I have no problem with atheists being atheists anyway. Sometimes that's the best thing one can do, if you believe the religions available are more a cause of harm than good, it would only be rational to keep to yourself and have nothing to do with them.
I don't do eternal damnation, but I sure do understand the moral concept of making a *positive* difference in the world around us during our lifetime. Atheists seem to understand that as well as theists do, and I regret to say, in some instances they understand it better.
Booko
Deviled Hen
Well, you're certainly right in my case, FVM. If God chose to reveal Himself via anything remotely like a vision, I would have sought psychiatric care. I just don't do that sort of thing, I guess.
Fortunately, there are other means available. But what may work for one person may not for another. I don't understand why there needs to be just one sort of "evidence" and somehow that should work for anyone. That seems rather limited.