Why Does Hamas Kill Civilians?

[Saint Frankenstein]

You mean besides all the facts I posted and questions for you I raised. Got it.

I have read the artcile -- it complains about the law of return. Do you know how many countries have similar laws? And yet it is singling out Israel. It doesn't mention the laws favorable to Arabs or non-Jews in Israel. Did you notice that? It also then makes dumb illogical connections. For example, it makes the claim that laws are discriminatory because Arabs are required to do military service, so those who don't serve don't get paid by the government after discharge. But they are allowed to serve and get the same benefits. They just aren't obligated before the fact. After service, all receive the same benefits.

Then you have such brilliance as the "unfair" laws regarding dismissing a member of parliament. The basic law makes it clear that there are 3 things that can get you kicked out of having a seat in the government:

" (1) denial of the existence of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state; (2) incitement to racism; and (3) support for armed struggle of an enemy state or a terrorist organization against Israel."

I guess this is unfair to the members of the government who are against the country. In the US, you can get expelled from congress for "disorderly behaviour" according to the constitution (I, 5, par 2). That's clearly unfair to those who wish to be disorderly. And America calls itself a democracy!

Sure. You didn't look up that they have parallel laws?

Not that it excuses it, but that it shows that the practice is not one endemic to Israel and yet I haven't seen any threads complaining about it elsewhere. If those debates are raging, please link to the threads. Thanks.

You really don't understand that with 20% Muslim population and the population of Arabs of all sorts INCREASING, a claim of ethnic cleansing is just plain silly.

Jews are allowed to return (even converts whose ancestors were never there in the first place, not that any Jew has to prove any ancestral link to the land itself), but not Palestinians.

You cannot be a "Jewish state" and be democratic, so already that law is a farce. Hardline Zionists incite racism against Palestianians in the Knesset with vile rhetoric and they're not being booted out for it. It's like if America said you can't serve in the government without affirming that the US is a "white and democratic state".

We complain about Israel doing it because Zionists are always presenting it to us as a Western style liberal democracy with gay rights and so on. But when I point out it isn't, you say "well, they do in places like Indonesia and Vatican City!". Vatican City and Indonesia are not Western democracies. So you're just proving my point.

You're dodging the question of how Israel got a Jewish majority in a non-Jewish land.

I'm sure the population of Gaza isn't increasing. The IDF is making sure of that.

 

[rocala]

The situation is the opposite of multi-culturalism.

Well, you only have to look at the national flag, how many religious symbols do you see?

 

[rosends]

Jews are allowed to return (even converts whose ancestors were never there in the first place, not that any Jew has to prove any ancestral link to the land itself), but not Palestinians.

Why do you distinguish between Jews and specifically Palestinians? And why are you ignoring all the other countries in the world which have similar laws? You seem to be trying to create an impression that this is somehow unique and set up against a particular group. it is neither unique, nor aimed at one particular group's exclusion. This isn't even about citizenship because non-Jews can still get israeli citizenship. Are you familiar with the Child Citizenship Act of 2000? It excludes Palestinians in the US also!

You cannot be a "Jewish state" and be democratic, so already that law is a farce.

You say that but it isn't true.

We complain about Israel doing it because Zionists are always presenting it to us as a Western style liberal democracy with gay rights and so on. But when I point out it isn't, you say "well, they do in places like Indonesia and Vatican City!". Vatican City and Indonesia are not Western democracies. So you're just proving my point.

I don't recall ever claiming any construct known as "western style liberal democracy". I'm not even sure what that would mean or refer to so I certainly didn't use it to discuss Israel (and it isn't a phrase that anyone in my community has ever used in my presence). Israel is a democracy. It has areas in its governance where it is theologically defineda and areas in which it is liberal and its policies fly in the face of that same theology.

You're dodging the question of how Israel got a Jewish majority in a non-Jewish land.

Should we start discussing land purchases from absentees or how Arab leaders told Arabs to leave before they attacked Israel?

I'm sure the population of Gaza isn't increasing.

You'd be wrong

International Database

www.census.gov

The IDF is making sure of that.

By escorting people to safe areas? By warning people? By letting Arabs come in to Israel for medical help?

Healthcare in Israel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[rosends]

Well, you only have to look at the national flag, how many religious symbols do you see?

So a religious symbol on a flag means that a country isn't multi-sultural?

64 countries have religious symbols on their national flags

Of the 64 countries in this category, about half have Christian symbols (48%) and about a third include Islamic religious symbols (33%).

www.pewresearch.org

 

[rocala]

So a religious symbol on a flag means that a country isn't multi-sultural?

I would say that depends on when and why it was placed there. Considering the long history of the place's importance to Christianity and Islam I would regard it is more than a little worrying.
Personally, I do not think that religious symbols belong on national flags.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I would say that depends on when and why it was placed there. Considering the long history of the place's importance to Christanity and Islam I would say it is more than a little worrying.
Personally, I do not think that religious symbols belong on national flags.

That land is the last place any one religion should be staking a claim to. Religion has ruined that place. I don't know how "God gave it to us" became acceptable justification on the world political stage. (I guess the UN and the British are God.) What an embarrassment.

 

[rosends]

I would say that depends on when and why it was placed there. Considering the long history of the place's importance to Christianity and Islam I would regard it is more than a little worrying.
Personally, I do not think that religious symbols belong on national flags.

So do you draw the same conclusion about other countries that use a religious symbol on the flag as you do about Israel?

 

[Revoltingest]

Flags are irrelevant IMO.
Actions matter.

 

[rocala]

So do you draw the same conclusion about other countries that use a religious symbol on the flag as you do about Israel?

My beliefs are the same for all countries. I would say that the relevance and emphasis of those beliefs has to vary with time and place. For an example from the chart that you provided, the flag of Bhutan is unlikely to be a matter of grave concern.

A favourite of mine is the flag of the Republic of Ireland. Despite centuries of bloodshed and a strong indication that more was on the way, the flag of the new republic has an equally sized orange stripe. If that is not conciliatory, I don't know what is.

 

[rosends]

My beliefs are the same for all countries. I would say that the relevance and emphasis of those beliefs has to vary with time and place. For an example from the chart that you provided, the flag of Bhutan is unlikely to be a matter of grave concern.

A favourite of mine is the flag of the Republic of Ireland. Despite centuries of bloodshed and a strong indication that more was on the way, the flag of the new republic has an equally sized orange stripe. If that is not conciliatory, I don't know what is.

so to clarify -- you assert that any country that has a religious symbol on its flag is not a country that embraces multi-culturalism?

Your statement was "you only have to look at the national flag, how many religious symbols do you see?"

Not "you have to look at the many variables regarding time and place". Also, if the application of your particular position is dependent on your personal knowledge of or opinion of the various historical and cultural elements, then it isn't a great standard to try and use to convince anyone because it is so personal to your perception.

 

[rocala]

you assert that any country that has a religious symbol on its flag is not a country that embraces multi-culturalism?

Not exactly, but I probably would if thousands of people were getting killed. In some countries, multi-culturalism is not an issue so I dare say they have better things to worry about.

 

[Revoltingest]

64 countries have religious symbols on their national flags

Of the 64 countries in this category, about half have Christian symbols (48%) and about a third include Islamic religious symbols (33%).

www.pewresearch.org

 

[rosends]

Not exactly, but I probably would if thousands of people were getting killed. In some countries, multi-culturalism is not an issue so I dare say they have better things to worry about.

but you believe that in Israel, a country in which a variety of religions, races and ethnicities are represented on all levels, it IS a problem, as 'evidenced' by its flag?

 

[rocala]

but you believe that in Israel, a country in which a variety of religions, races and ethnicities are represented on all levels, it IS a problem, as 'evidenced' by its flag?

It is indicative of a problem and I would suggest that it is a hindrance to conciliation and progress. Were these people of varied faiths and ethnicities consulted at the beginning?
I am not describing anything revolutionary here. When people move on they make changes. Swastikas and Hammer and Sickle emblems have been removed from flags - who is moaning about that. If I thought it would help peace and justice they could run a pair of underpants up the flag pole for all I care. People are being killed, that is what matters right now

 

[Bthoth]

Because that’s his background. I usually indicate what someone’s background is.

Does it make the material valid?
Or perhaps just flavored with a bias?

For example, do you even know what the word holocaust even means in greek?

 

[Bthoth]

It is hardly quite that simple, though.

Simple no, but a reality!

 

[Bthoth]

Because that’s his background. I usually indicate what someone’s background is.

And using it as credible means very little.

 

[Orbit]

And using it as credible means very little.

He’s a scholar who is internationally recognized. That isn’t “meaning very little”.

 

[Bthoth]

He’s a scholar who is internationally recognized. That isn’t “meaning very little”.

It does when used as spam.
State your point.

 

[rosends]

It is indicative of a problem and I would suggest that it is a hindrance to conciliation and progress. Were these people of varied faiths and ethnicities consulted at the beginning?

Is that a precondition for any country's flag? Does a flag have to represent every part of every society? Do you think the other religions in those other 63 countries were consulted?

I am not describing anything revolutionary here. When people move on they make changes. Swastikas and Hammer and Sickle emblems have been removed from flags - who is moaning about that. If I thought it would help peace and justice they could run a pair of underpants up the flag pole for all I care. People are being killed, that is what matters right now

The two symbols have been removed because the groups they represent no longer exist. The USSR was disbanded. The Nazi party in Germany doesn't exist (though people use the flag still for other Nazis). Are you saying that Israel should change its flag even though it still exists?