Why does it seem that God never intervenes in Human Suffering

[idav]

Cause god shares his omnipotence and now we are fighting against other gods. The issue is power and a lot of beings don't do good things with power, probably including god itself. I think it is wishful thinking to think some all powerful being should be "all good" especially when people expect it to choose sides.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Two interesting quotes ...

1. Pray as though everything depended on God. Work as though everything depended on you. - Saint Augustine
2. It is not your responsibility to finish the work [of perfecting the world], but you are not free to desist from it either. - Rabbi Tarfon

 

[Serenity7855]

To tell you honestly, I don't see a pedophile no different than a thief and no different than a murderer.

This reminds me that God never looks upon any man's sin with the least degree of allowance. God has no favourites. He allows no ones sins to go unpunished. God loved David. He had given him remarkable truths of His love. But when David sinned, God dealt with Davids sin with the sternest and most relentless Judgement. He allowed David's sin to dog him and to imbitter and blast his life until his dying day. We are accountable for our own sins, regardless as to who we think we are. But that relates to our personal journey through mortality. I was considering the chant that Christians get when the is a high number of deaths in a plane crash, an earth quake, a bomb detonated to kill the maximum number of innocent people. Why didn't God step in to prevent it. It is not the individual pedophile that I speak of it is the epidemic of pedophilia that has creeped into our society. It is not the father of the child who is dying of malnutrition who I am targeting it is the hoarders of wealth, the super rich who I speak of and the fact that their wealth could feed every child that is starving today. Why couldn't God step in to prevent that from happening?

If they are christians, and they come to repentence, it's not "why does god allow suffering" it's "how are they maturing spiritually?" or "what is in their life can their christian peers help him or her with to grow as god wants them to"

Yes, this is a correct principle that I have no argument with.

From an atheist perspective...

It shouldn't be "why does god cause suffering." I mean, if you're an atheist, why ask the question? Unless there is some belief or maybe playing with the possibility that a non-existent god can allow something to happen. It is illogical.

Again I agree.

But then, there are different types of atheists.

Yes there are.

Why does god allow suffering? I never asked that question. Doesn't make sense. God to me is life, plan and simple. No prophets. No book. No personification of the unknown. Just life.

Well, that is a question that I to rarely consider because I know the answer. God does not allow suffering men create their own suffering. God just stand by in sadness as men succumbs to the enticings of Satan

We have our own responsibilities to ourselves, to others, to those who passed, and to those who come after us. We have a responsibility to take care of our environment and be one with what christians call creation. When we do things like stealing or taking what is not ours, we are breaking survival morals. Animals steal for survival. Humans are not special. We do things for survival but outside of the natural law (which is supernatural interconnected), our society starts to break down.

Again, I have to agree. I have no option because I live in a morally and socially deprevated society.

Even more so, how can one answer it? Christians find so many answers to these questions but the source or responsibility for these sins thief to murder is from us. Looking at both christian and atheist, why does everything have to be about god?

To be fair, everything is about God, in my world, but not the negatives of blaming Him whenever something does not go according to plan.[/QUOTE]

 

[Serenity7855]

Young? What about the millions of stillborns and miscarriages God causes? Way to go God.

At what point can we say that a that an embryo is a living person. Who can determine at what point we are consider to be a human being that has obtained a body of flesh and bones. I have heard many theories but nothing substantiated. If you could determine that then you would know if that still born or miscarriage made it to the Kingdom of God, however, the question is a mote one as you do not believe in divinity.

 

[idav]

Young? What about the millions of stillborns and miscarriages God causes? Way to go God.

As much as I love mother nature, I still think she is a capital B.

 

[Serenity7855]

And your explanation just sounds like an emotionally acceptable rationalization for the deaths of children. I guess that's supposed to make their parents feel better? I'm sure they'd rather have their children with them.

Yes, that is the response that I would expect from someone who does not believe that a God exists. That would be my response if i were an atheist, but nothing I say will ever change it until you come to know it yourself. And if at the end of the day we are all wrong and God is non-existent then what harm has it done for someone to find solace in the belief that their child has gone to heaven and is safe and well living with God. What is wrong in the comfort and coming to terms of such an awful event. It is time we stopped doing what we want to do, regardless of consequences, and start doing what we ought to do.

I was just following your logic to its conclusion, anyway. Going by what you said about kids, then what I said about adults isn't too far-fetched.

That is not the logical conclusion that is your conclusion based on your own beliefs and bias. Much the same as my belief is also based on my knowledge and bias.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yes, that is the response that I would expect from someone who does not believe that a God exists. That would be my response if i were an atheist, but nothing I say will ever change it until you come to know it yourself. And if at the end of the day we are all wrong and God is non-existent then what harm has it done for someone to find solace in the belief that their child has gone to heaven and is safe and well living with God. What is wrong in the comfort and coming to terms of such an awful event. It is time we stopped doing what we want to do, regardless of consequences, and start doing what we ought to do.

I'm not an atheist and it's rude of you to assume that I am just because I don't believe in your petty concept of God.

That is not the logical conclusion that is your conclusion based on your own beliefs and bias. Much the same as my belief is also based on my knowledge and bias.

Then, pray tell, what is the "correct" logical conclusion of what you said? Where does it leave adults? Do we not get the wonderful gift of an early death because we were too naughty while we were with Big Daddy in Heaven before being born? Let's hear it.

 

[idav]

Yes, that is the response that I would expect from someone who does not believe that a God exists. That would be my response if i were an atheist, but nothing I say will ever change it until you come to know it yourself. And if at the end of the day we are all wrong and God is non-existent then what harm has it done for someone to find solace in the belief that their child has gone to heaven and is safe and well living with God. What is wrong in the comfort and coming to terms of such an awful event. It is time we stopped doing what we want to do, regardless of consequences, and start doing what we ought to do.

So your arguing it is all good cause if children get snuffed of their life earlier than their parents, its ok cause they are in heaven. No there is nothing wrong with believing that as comfort for death however it doesn't justify the amount of suffering an all powerful god causes. That is if god is supposed to be controlling every single aspect of life which seems far-fetched, even for an omnipotent being.

 

[Demonslayer]

And if at the end of the day we are all wrong and God is non-existent then what harm has it done for someone to find solace in the belief

- Wasting countless precious hours chanting prayers and sitting in church praying to nothing when life was passing by
- Living life angry at homosexuals
- Alienation from people of other religions
- Unnecessary guilt associated with sexual activity
- Striking unhealthy fear of eternal damnation into your own children
- Waiting for prayers to help you instead of actively addressing your problems
- Denial of basic scientifically accepted ideas like evolution
- Giving 10% of your money away

Just a starter list.

 

[Demonslayer]

If you could determine that then you would know if that still born or miscarriage made it to the Kingdom of God,

You claimed that:

Coming here allows you to:

• Receive a physical body.
• Exercise agency and learn to choose between good and evil.
• Learn and gain experience that will help you become more like your Heavenly Father.
• Form family relationships that may become eternal.
• To be tried and tested in the flesh to see if we will have sufficient faith if God to keep His commandments.

With stillborns and miscarriages which happen at the rate of tens of thousands a day, none of this is true.

GOD FAIL

 

[Serenity7855]

He's the one who came up with this plan of salvation, he could've done whatever he wanted. But he chose to make it extremely hard and to distance himself from his creatures. That's not how a loving parent acts. If a human parent did that, they'd get in trouble with the law. Too bad we don't have such standards for deities.

Yes, he was, and two thirds of us agreed with it. No, we choose to make it extremely hard. All we had to do was to follow his lead and happiness and contentment would have been our rewards, but from Cain and Able to Sodom and Gomorrah to the present day, we have been incapable and unwilling to do as we are told. We are still incapable of it today as we sit in different countries and cultures, typing in our opposing views, on a religious forum, what we believe to be right and wrong. It seems like anything that dictates to us how we should live our lives is met with a disobedient pride of being told how to live our lives when we think that we know so much more then God knows. And all we had to do was follow the admonition of James to be able to come to Know God for ourselves.

The Epistle of James 1:5-6
5 If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all withoutfinding fault, and it will be given to him.
6 But he must ask in faith, without doubting, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the btruth of all things

 

[Serenity7855]

- Wasting countless precious hours chanting prayers and sitting in church praying to nothing when life was passing by

Really, is that what you think Christians do. We have lives like anybody else.

- Living life angry at homosexual

s
Christians are not angry at homosexuals they are angry at the sin, they love the sinner.

- Alienation from people of other religions

Well, that is just not true. I have never heard that one before.

- Unnecessary guilt associated with sexual activity

Guilt is an emotion that is induced by you when you are doing something that you shouldn't be doing. It is your conscience and not Christianity telling you that.

- Striking unhealthy fear of eternal damnation into your own children

Again, you have it wrong. Christians do not do that, I do not do that.

- Waiting for prayers to help you instead of actively addressing your problems

Christians are taught to first try and deal with your own problems on your own in order to gain knowledge and wisdom. When you reach a point when that does not work then that is the time to pray, fast and pray, or get other members to fast and pray with you, and if it be Gods will then your prayers will be answered in a way that is unmistakably from God.

- Denial of basic scientifically accepted ideas like evolution

Rubbish. Evolution is God Science, created by God, as is all scientific theory. God is the Master Scientist, having created life.

- Giving 10% of your money away

Tithing is not so much a matter of dollars as it is a matter of faith. It becomes a privilege and an opportunity, not a burden. Our people believe in the word of God as set forth in the book of Malachi, that the Lord will open the windows of heaven and pour down blessings that there will not be room enough to receive them (Malachi 3:8-10).

Just a starter list

A starter list that is compiled by an atheist and is based on your own understandings and bias. A list that is easily refuted as being grossly inaccurate or an outright lie. A list that does not compensate for the loss of a child that the comfort and piece of mind that one gets when they believe that their deceased child has gone to heaven.

 

[George-ananda]

What do you think?

I think that eastern/Indian religions have a more advanced understanding than the Abrahamic traditions on these issues. The physical world is designed to be a temporary place of experiencing the dualities of joy/suffering leading to a growth in wisdom and compassion. All suffering is temporary and all souls will in the end be victorious; merging with the infinite soul in being-bliss-awareness.

 

[Serenity7855]

I'm not an atheist and it's rude of you to assume that I am just because I don't believe in your petty concept of God

How is that rude? You speak like and atheists, your views are like and atheists and you are as awkward and angry as an atheists so to assume you are an atheist is perfectly acceptable. All you need is to correct me and I will no longer think you are an atheist. I will then know that you are into satanism.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Why couldn't God step in to prevent that from happening?

Seeing wrong doings in a broader and creative light still individual or not makes people the source of the problem. Since god is life, we are a part of life. Whatever we do, we are hurting "the heart of god (ourselves, our environment, others)."

Well, that is a question that I too rarely consider because I know the answer. God does not allow suffering men create their own suffering. God just stand by in sadness as men succumbs to the enticing of Satan

Since god is life, suffering exist within "him"; and, we have to acknowledge that. Satan, in my opinion, sounds like attributing responsibility from oneself to personified evil. Rather than blame it on satan (who is probably getting angry at humans blaming him for stuff), put the blame on ourselves. If it all comes from Satan, what is the need to repent? Can you control what Satan does to you? Or is sin something that comes from you that you can control; and when you sin, it's you that takes responsibility for those sins and you that has to come up to god and apologize. Putting Satan in the picture is like blaming my evil sister for stealing cookies I'm eating in front of her. Then I go apologize to my mother and say "mom, I am sorry, I stole the cookies. My sister told me to." Regardless if she told or influenced me to (tempted me as Jesus was tempted), I was the one who took the cookies. My sister has no part in this whatsoever.

To be fair, everything is about God, in my world, but not the negatives of blaming Him whenever something does not go according to plan.

It's natural for people to blame god. Like my cookie example, if my mother yelled at me and told me to sit in the corner, I have the choice to blame her for her anger. I have every right to because it is a natural response to negative reactions.

When I used to go to Mass and confession, sometimes I see people upset others are mad. It's natural. When one goes to confession (or repents) it takes a lot of effort and strength to say "Im sorry" to someone you angered.

You are blaming god and you are apologizing.

It's not the blaming god that's the problem in christianity, in my opinion. It's avoiding repentence. I can blame my mother all I want. That wont do a thing. If I forgive or apologize to her, that means a whole lot more. We (Christians) just have to come to a point that blaming is like crying and any other action of hurt. I don't know if your god is angry for anyone blaming him. I mean, if I were a mother, I wouldnt be angry at my child for blaming me; but, that's me. I just wouldnt put that blame on satan, just myself.

 

[Demonslayer]

God is the Master Scientist

He must have an enormous...Bunsen burner.

 

[Serenity7855]

I think that eastern/Indian religions have a more advanced understanding than the Abrahamic traditions on these issues. The physical world is designed to be a temporary place of experiencing the dualities of joy/suffering leading to a growth in wisdom and compassion. All suffering is temporary and all souls will in the end be victorious; merging with the infinite soul in being-bliss-awareness.

I am sure that you are right, however, I was raised in a Christian culture so I believe in Christianity. Should I have been born in India I would be a Hindu seeking liberation/release by acquiring vidyā (knowledge) of the identity of Atman and Brahman, and I am pretty sure that I would be equally very content and happy with it. I like it so I cannot be critical of it, I accept your philosophy with open arms.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

How is that rude? You speak like and atheists, your views are like and atheists and you are as awkward and angry as an atheists so to assume you are an atheist is perfectly acceptable. All you need is to correct me and I will no longer think you are an atheist. I will then know that you are into satanism.

No, it is not acceptable for you to presume that I'm an atheist because I am angry. What does being an atheist have to do with being angry? Yeah, I'm angry. I'm angry over various traumas that are currently afflicting me. It's expected for a person going through what I'm going through to be angry. I wouldn't call myself an atheist, but I don't really care much about religion at this point in time. Obsessing over religion only leads to me wasting time with my head in the clouds. I have my personal spiritual views and that's it. Oh, and you can be a Satanist and also be an atheist. Many are.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yes, he was, and two thirds of us agreed with it. No, we choose to make it extremely hard. All we had to do was to follow his lead and happiness and contentment would have been our rewards, but from Cain and Able to Sodom and Gomorrah to the present day, we have been incapable and unwilling to do as we are told. We are still incapable of it today as we sit in different countries and cultures, typing in our opposing views, on a religious forum, what we believe to be right and wrong. It seems like anything that dictates to us how we should live our lives is met with a disobedient pride of being told how to live our lives when we think that we know so much more then God knows. And all we had to do was follow the admonition of James to be able to come to Know God for ourselves.

The Epistle of James 1:5-6
5 If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all withoutfinding fault, and it will be given to him.
6 But he must ask in faith, without doubting, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the btruth of all things

I don't recall agreeing with it and people being screwed up is not my fault. I didn't make this world. I was just born into it.

 

[George-ananda]

I am sure that you are right, however, I was raised in a Christian culture so I believe in Christianity.

Many or most of us here were raised in a Christian culture too.

Should I have been born in Indian I would be a Hindu seeking liberation/release by acquiring vidyā (knowledge) of the identity of Atman and Brahman, and I am pretty sure that I would be equally very content and happy with it. I like it so I cannot be critical of it, I accept your philosophy with open arms.

I am one of the few defenders of Christianity against the haters on this forum. I understand for a lot of people, their thinking is Christianity versus Atheism and between those two I think Christianity is closer to the truth and the more beneficial position. However I do argue for a non-exclusivist understanding of Christianity based on the loving example of Jesus than on much of the dogma which I think is man-made and has served its time.