Why does it seem that God never intervenes in Human Suffering

[Serenity7855]

A lot of rhetoric without real or scriptural evidence.

There are scriptures that back up what I say, however, you will believe the scriptures as much as you believe in Deity so it would be a waste of time.

 

[Serenity7855]

You mean a miscarried embryo soul thing proved itself so valiant and that is why it died so quickly?

An unborn child cannot show his/her level of valiant's, however, I am sure that you do not think that is what I mean, especially as I have said that they fought so valiantly for God during the war in heaven. It is there that the proved themselves.

So, if a woman takes the day after pill, and kills that one day old embryo, that means that the embryo was valiant?

Are you sure?

Does it? No I am not sure because I do not know when an embryo becomes a human being. In my opinion it is when they draw their first breath, however, that is a subjective opinion[/QUOTE]

 

[Serenity7855]

I do not recollect anything of the sort.

This quote comes from the opening post. "One thing that makes this life so hard sometimes is that we’re out of God’s physical presence. Not only that, but we can’t remember our pre-earth life which means we have to operate by faith rather than sight." That should clarify for you why you do not recollect it.

 

[Thief]

shall we consider?...why the rich get richer and the poor get less

after such events as the Flood...Sodom and Gomorrah....
I would like to think God is still willing some 'surgical relief'

but no...He seems willing to let Man have his way
chasing after money at the expense of one's fellow man...

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If we take Satan out of the picture then there is no sin. You have to have a wrong in order to be right.

I will have to really read all of what you said. This and another are my main
points.

That is ironic, though. If sin is bad and something any believer does not want, if satan did not exist, wouldn't that believer happy? Wouldn't life long relationship with god without temptation to sin make them more happy than struggling in faith or obedience, repenting, and crawling to get to god through Jesus (or however means) when you guys could have been there without any of this at all?

Do you like to play with fire to learn how to apologize or would you like to be taught not to be burnt or even better, don't have the fire there to begin with?



Also, if Satan did not have anything to do with your actions, then you would not be tempted. Since temptation is one of the core to Christianity (thus repentence), then satan is needed.

In my personal view, he is not needed. We sin or transgress on our own (as we agreed) and we do so without needing a temptation. I mean, I can go right now and take someone's life. I had no temptation. No one pulled me to do it. Nothing. Just an isolated action. That is a sin.

Putting evil in the world so people can find good is like burning a child's hand so he knows not to touch the stove. No matter how much his mother loves him, that is still wrong. There are different methods without pain (no satan. no crucifixion. et) that will help believers grow into a relationship with god.

That is something I will never understand morally.

The other point:

Satan does not give you the choice to sin, that choice is all yours and only you can be held accountable for it. What Satan does is provide the opportunity in which you are faced with the choice to either sin or reject the temptation.

Satan was a part of your decision and action. He provided the opportunity in which you faced that choice and you either made the choice or rejected it. So, it's not just you that's in it, its Satan as well. So, I understand why people blame satan. He gave them the opportunity to make a choice they shouldn't have made.

Take out satan, and give them that same choice. If god told them to choose an apple and satan did not exist, of course they wouldn't know the opposite. They wouldnt know what it means to be burnt.

Why is that wrong?
Why do you want pain and be tempted in order to make a good choice?

Someone told me in a chat they were a slave to god.

I actually respect that although creepy. It means that he didn't keep his own ego (don't mean to be so blunt) and letting himself have a wiggle of room for his own decisions. Instead, everything he does and says is of god. He said (well, that was a debate) that he does not sin because of it. With that, I thought: logically, that makes sense. He is happy with his god. No sin. Saved. Ready to go to heaven.

I honestly dont understand why that is a bad thing. If I were in that position, I'd be insulting god to even tell myself I should have a choice to sin by wanting satan to exist and tempt me to do so.

If this isnt the christian thought, I completely disagree both morally (given its not my faith) and logically as well.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Ima try to keep this one thread. It may be choppy and I have to shorten some of your points.

Satan does not give you the choice to sin, that choice is all yours and only you can be held accountable for it. What Satan does is provide the opportunity in which you are faced with the choice to either sin or reject the temptation.

As long as satan is involved in that choice, then it isn't just about the sinner. When you take satan out, then the responsibility is completely on the believer. That's basic, actually. If I wanted to steal a candy bar, I'd probably think of it a second and then walk away. If my friend whispered in my ear "hey, you know if we get that candy bar, we can do this or that" then the temptation sparkles. My friend has became an assessor to my crime. He is found just as guilty as I am just with different charges (according to the US Law).

When we came into this world we did so with a pure heart and mind, without sin.
As we grew older the world gradually contaminate and defiled our thoughts and desires, systematically removing that innocence from us and replacing it with the values and morals of the world. The world where Satan presides. We were not given to sinning until we were confronted with sin. We did not know what sin was until Satan, and his third of the host of heaven, presented it to us in a appealing and tempting way. Your sins are of your own doing but without the Satan there would be no choice to make. For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad.

I find this odd. Righteousness was already there before anyone was tempted. If satan wasn't present, then holiness and good would be the default. Why is that bad? If you believe Jesus is god, you would still be with Jesus. I dont see what you are missing out on if god is all you have left. Holding on to choice to sin sounds more human-minded. I never heard of any other religion that wanted to keep freedom of choice in order for evil to thrive. If anything, they have freedom of choice because evil doesnt thrive. When you are free from ego, thinking we are the center of the universe, etc.. a freedom comes upon us to where what we do (in a Muslim view, for example) is all for god. In Christianity, that need for temptation just makes me pause.

Again, without opposition in all things, sin does not exist, nothing exists for there is no negative to prove the positive.

You dont need all that to walk with god. If freedom of choice to sin is what believers want, that disturbs me. I like the "I rather be a slave to god" than "I rather make my own choices even though they will be for god" Its holding on to ones Self/ego and not giving oneself up (crucifixion) for god.

Satan influences our mind, that is how he primarily tempts us but making suggestions to our conscience. It is and external influence, both from God and Satan.

Would she?

Proverbs 23:12-14
13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

I dont agree that satan influences our minds. He has no influence over what I think and do. That is me. I dont understand why christians see it that way. A question that will be there for a good 'nother 30 years or so.

To reason it out first, using your own intelligence and knowledge, is the right thing to do, however, Satan has still presented you with alternative to choose from. The temptations to hit her back was given by your brother. Satan has still played a key role in your decision as without him there would be no decision to make and your mother would have never hit you. There’s a fine balance between agency and inspiration. We’re expected to do everything in our power to resolve any issues or to come up with, what we consider to be, the right choices ourselves and then to seek an answer from the Lord, a confirming seal that we’ve reached the right conclusion. To expect the Lord to guide us and direct us in everything we do is slothful and takes away our free agency to act according to the dictates of our heart.

I forgot the analogy. Satan would not give me the opportunity to hit someone who yelled at me. That's silly. The opportunity emerged because of that other person's actions not an influence from satan. She rolled the ball. No one else did. She gave me the opportunity to hit her or walk away. Satan did nothing.

As I said, the choice is always down to you. The provider of the choice is God and Satan, Righteousness and Wickedness. You cannot make a choice without this. But she will have to stand accountable for her own sins, if to strike you is a sin.

Yes you can. If I gave my friend two options, "we can either go to the park or to the zoo" she can make a choice between the two. She doesn't need me to say "we can go either to the park or to a dangerous area in the city getto". Why would she need that option to make a good and safe choice to go to the park? That doesnt make sense. Why give her the getto option when we would both benefit in our safety by going to the park?

That is correct, you are accountable for your own transgressions and not the transgressions of others. You have allowed yourself to accept the enticings of Satan and have sinned.

Satan has nothing to do with my transgressions. That's something I disbelieve heavily. My environment influences me, yes. Just as the Spirits. Just as anything or anyone else. Satan doesnt figure into it. Maybe because he is pure evil when I see no one as pure evil regardless if they are spirit/soul or person on earth.

No, you shouldn't blame anyone for your choices, however, it is wise to recognise that evil exists to cause you to sin thus eventually becoming the property of Satan. If you sin then it is not because you are evil. It is because evil exists and has influenced you. You are not evil by nature. That is something that you have acquired here, in this world. It is the result of Satan and his followers tempting the righteous.

Evil does not exist isolated from our actions. We call it karma. Without our actions, there is no good or bad karma. Bad karma is not evil but a consequence of the ill choice we made. We made his choice no matter what influenced us. In this case, there is no outside entity that influences what we do. What we do can be control by our mind. Even though its natural to be angry at someone, with meditation, prayer, and motivation, we can bring our mind from automatic anger so we wont display it in physical aggression.

Satan has no part in this at all.

CONTINUED....

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I cannot agree with that, because it is something that I have never done or considered to do.

Many people blame those who hurt them. For example, if Jane got abused she would correctly blame her abuser. That does not make it wrong. It is his/her fault. It was the action her abuser took. It's natural to do so. Just after awhile of being abuse, shed need to learn to deal with her blame in a healthy way.

Instinctively yes, however, that does not mean that my instinctive reaction is right, it clearly is not. Again that is my choice.

It's your choice to act when you are aware of what your emotions tell you. Many people don't handle their emotions as healthy as you are saying. So, they naturally react to how their emotions make them feel. Its basic psychology.

I am no psychologist but I am introspective enough to know that anger is a negative so I avoid it as best as I can. I am not your every day person though. I take medication that makes me laid back and non-aggressive. I genuinely do not get angry at my own misgivings, not even with myself. If I err then I know that I am imperfect and prone to making mistakes so I just put it right, as best as I can, learn from it and try not to do it again. I have a moral code that I have indoctrinated myself with and rarely contravene. As soon as Satan tries to tempt me I automatically put my defences up and walk away. It has become an integral part of my persona.

In general, that is how psychology works. I honestly dont feel you are the odd one out. I just find it nice that you have a handle over what you do when you may or may not have unsettled emotions.

If you can control your anger than it is a choice. If it was not a choice then we would all get angry when things do not go our way. We don't, therefore, some of us have chosen not to become angry.

It's not a choice. It is a choice in what we do to disolve that anger. That's like saying the fight response is a choice. It's basic human physiological reaction to danger. I took a safety class and was given a fake gun by two police officers. We had to go into a dark room. When the lights came on the other officer had a gone pointed at me. He wanted my bag I held. The lesson was: should we fight? run? or give him the bag? Our basic instinct tells us what we do in a given sitation.

Unless we are taught or trained to handle our actions in that type of situation. However, the emotions (panic in this case) is natural. We can't control that. We can control what we do when we panic.

This I know as a fact. I deal with seizures both epileptic and non-epileptic, panic attacks both severe and minor, and so forth. These things we can control once we recognize the symptoms. We can't control when the symptoms come. We can control how to react to them. The therapist teaches us how to react. The medicine helps with the symptoms.

But I forgot the point in relation to the conversation.

Satan is a means to an end. He is a necessary evil. He cannot be blamed for our sins, however, he will be held accountable for his own. His own sins included tempting mankind into sinning. He is needed though to give us opposition in all things. Without him we would be

That I disagree. Only because its not my faith. I cant find the logistics in it, though. "Necessary evil". Thats horrible.

I cannot agree with that. I am slightly overweight, is it my wife's fault for feeding me too much food. Should I blame her the next time I look in the mirror and see that I am fat. By your logic that is what I should do. I am responsible for being overweight, even though she gives me the food, I do not have to eat it all, that is my choice, no one else is accountable for my decisions. I do not blame Satan, that is how I expect him to be. I know what he is capable of yet I still allowed myself to surcomb to his temptations. That is my fault, not Satan's, he is doing what he thinks is right for him. He is doing what I know he does.

If she is an assessary to your weight game, yes, she is part of the issue. Should you blame her? Depends on how you see it. If you are really tempted and (like satan) his purpose was to tempt you into eating the food, then the fault is on both of you because 1. you knew the consequence and 2. He knew what he was doing.

Yes, you could blame him. That's not wrong. It is partially his fault.

I dont know if the rest of the quotes where repeats.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

There are scriptures that back up what I say, however, you will believe the scriptures as much as you believe in Deity so it would be a waste of time.

Actually even less.

A deity could or could not exist.

Scriptures that take from earlier sources and contradict themselves and reality are far less believable.

 

[Serenity7855]

Actually even less.

Even less then what?

A deity could or could not exist.

I am inclined to believe that a Deity exist.

Scriptures that take from earlier sources and contradict themselves and reality are far less believable.

I know of no scriptures that contradict themselves, unless you read the scriptures as a chronology of those times instead of a book of commandments

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Even less then what?

Use some deductive reasoning.

I am inclined to believe that a Deity exist.

Doesn't matter. My point still stands.

I know of no scriptures that contradict themselves, unless you read the scriptures as a chronology of those times instead of a book of commandments

AKA:
It doesn't contradict itself if it is read my way.

Okay let me ask you a question then.

Does hell exist?

 

[Serenity7855]

Use some deductive reasoning.

I am by asking you what is it less than

Doesn't matter. My point still stands.

What point were you making? I didn't pick up on any points.

AKA:
It doesn't contradict itself if it is read my way.

That is right.

Okay let me ask you a question then.

Does hell exist?

No.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

I am by asking you what is it less than

The probability of your scripture being accurate is less than the probability of a deity existing.

What point were you making? I didn't pick up on any points.

A deity could or could not exist.

That is right.

Okay so how is your book different from all of the other scripture then?

No.

Okay, so do people who do not believe in your religion get an afterlife?

 

[Demonslayer]

Okay, so do people who do not believe in your religion get an afterlife?

They come back as Cleveland Browns fans.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

If your God exists then why does He allow children to starve and pedophiles to exist. It is one of the most frequently asked questions of atheists and one that they think dismisses the existence of God. On another thread and another topic I recieved this post that caused me to think that maybe it is not something that Christians know or believe. Maybe it was lost with the creeds?



I believe that the answer is so obvious that we do not consider it. You first have to consider why you are here, what is this life all about and what happens to us when it is all over? Why are we here?
Coming here allows you to:

• Receive a physical body.
• Exercise agency and learn to choose between good and evil.
• Learn and gain experience that will help you become more like your Heavenly Father.
• Form family relationships that may become eternal.
• To be tried and tested in the flesh to see if we will have sufficient faith if God to keep His commandments.

Your life didn’t begin at birth and it won’t end at death. Before you came to earth, your spirit lived with Heavenly Father who created you. You knew Him, and He knew and loved you. It was a happy time during which you were taught God’s plan of happiness and the path to true joy.

One thing that makes this life so hard sometimes is that we’re out of God’s physical presence. Not only that, but we can’t remember our pre-earth life which means we have to operate by faith rather than sight. God didn’t say it would be easy, but He promised His spirit would be there when we needed Him. Even though it feels like it sometimes, we’re not alone in our journey.

So what is faith? To have faith is to “hope for things which are not seen, which are true” Hebrews 11:1). Each day you act upon things you hope for, even before you see the end result. This is similar to faith. Faith in God is more than a theoretical belief in Him. To have faith in God is to trust Him, to have confidence in Him, and to be willing to act on your belief in Him. It is a principle of action and power. That is the test that we are here to take. The test of our faith. To make choices that reflect upon that faith in Christ. If we had a perfect knowledge of Him then we could not be tried and tested by our faith because a perfect knowledge and faith could not exist together, there is either one or the other. There is a Mormon scripture that discribes this very well

Alma 32: 17-21

17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.

18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.

19 And now, how much more cursed is he thatknoweth the will of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression?

20 Now of this thing ye must judge. Behold, I say unto you, that it is on the one hand even as it is on the other; and it shall be unto every man according to his work.

21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

And that is the reaso why God cannot intervene and prevent the children from starving or take away the temptations of the pedophile. As soon as He does then the whole meaning of our existence will no longer be tenable and we would all be subjected to Satan. It is not that God turns His back on those who are suffering, I am sure that He weeps for them and longs to do something to alliviate their suffering, however, He cannot do that without destroying the entire Plan of Salvation by taking away the essential ingredient of faith.

Now, that is my belief. As I believe that God is a personage of infinite knowledge, I believe, so the entire Plan of Salvation is perfect with every single eventuality being covered. What do you think?

It is obvious that God, if It exists, would never interfere. The whole purpose of the universe is to be a natural (rational) stage for us to exercise our moral free will. If God were to interact, it would undermine that free will. The universe serves no other purpose. God could do anything else (besides taking 13 billion years to create self-aware creatures with free will) instantly. That's why angels are an absurd concept. First, they would merely be manifestations of God, and second, their knowledge of God would prevent them from having free will because they'd know God would always be watching them over their shoulder--the same reason why we can't know that God exists.

 

[Serenity7855]

Okay so how is your book different from all of the other scripture then?

What other scriptures?

Okay, so do people who do not believe in your religion get an afterlife?

Everyone will be raised into immortality regardless as to who they are.

 

[Demonslayer]

The probability of your scripture being accurate is less than the probability of a deity existing.

A thousand fold less likely. A deity could be anything. Once religion puts a story around the deity...gives it a name, a detailed history, ascribes opinions and attitudes to it, and makes specific claims about it like it controls the fate of our eternal souls...it becomes almost infinitely less likely.

I mean we could find out there really IS some all powerful intelligence that created the universe. But if there is no afterlife, whatever this thing is, it's not the Abrahamic God.

 

[Demonslayer]

Everyone will be raised into immortality regardless as to who they are.

Even Trump?

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

They come back as Cleveland Browns fans.

I thought he said there was no hell?

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

What other scriptures?

Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, etc.

Everyone will be raised into immortality regardless as to who they are.

That goes against Christian scripture however.

 

[Serenity7855]

A thousand fold less likely. A deity could be anything. Once religion puts a story around the deity...gives it a name, a detailed history, ascribes opinions and attitudes to it, and makes specific claims about it like it controls the fate of our eternal souls...it becomes almost infinitely less likely.

You say that because of your aversion and dislike of Christianity and Christians, with, what appears to be, just a tad of envy for those who have found happiness and contentment in there lives.

I mean we could find out there really IS some all powerful intelligence that created the universe. But if there is no afterlife, whatever this thing is, it's not the Abrahamic God.

Words spoken by a dyed in the wool atheist, that is, total ignorance to what Christianity is all about, but always ready and eager to insult and ridicule another human beings right to worship who they choose. We are accused of persecuting homosexuals from the very same people who persecute Christians. A little rich, I would say. Why not just be nice to people regardless of their creed, colour or race.