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Why does it seem that God never intervenes in Human Suffering

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
The problem with a literal view of Satan as an individual other than the perpetrator is that it shifts responsibility and blame away from the culprit who should be held to account and answerable for his misdeeds. No one but ourselves should be held responsible so that we are faced with the fact we must reform. It's easy to go into denial and blame these things on a monster devil but basically humanity has turned away from God and so has become enmeshed in selfish desires and violent ways and it has only itself to blame no third party.

Certainly, we answer for our own actions. That in no way makes Satan less real. In Job 1:6-12 and Job 2:1-7, he went right up to Jehovah! In Matthew 4:1-11, and the parallel account at Luke 4:1-13, Satan approached Jesus with temptations. At John 8:44, Jesus again made it clear that Satan was real.

Take care!
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
If you take the Bible literally. But the Bible uses many parables and metaphors. Do you interpret 'let the dead bury the dead' to mean what it says literally? If you don't then you're cherry picking which verses you want to mean what and applying your interpretation to fit what you want it to mean just like the clergy do. God gave us a mind to think for ourselves not follow blindly. The interpretation of Satan as an entity has been the one pushed by the clergy but I don't follow them and my mind says it's a figurative term used to portray the worst qualities of man. Satan exists as much as darkness does. Can you put darkness in a bulb and turn it on? Darkness is absence of light. Evil is absence of good. Satan is a myth and really refers to the insistent self or ego not some superstitious monster.
 
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loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
God is primarily concerned with virtues, goodness, love, justice, purity, holiness, patience, tolerance, love for all humanity regardless of creed, rank, class, race, religion or nationality. God is a master scientist Who was able to fashion creation with its multi universes all out of His Command "Be" and it happened. God does not create suffering but man does by choosing a thorn instead of a rose, ill wishing instead of we'll wishing, hate instead of love, war instead of peace.

The choice of eternal happiness or eternal misery and shame has always been in the palm of man's hand. He chooses his path. He decides his destiny. He suffers the consequences of the choices he makes and has made. God only stands by and weeps knowing that to intervene would be to take away our right to choose our own destiny. He can only help us if we choose to turn to Him and His Ways as He has promised us the right to decide our own fate without interference from Him.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
If you take the Bible literally. But the Bible uses many parables and metaphors. Do you interpret 'let the dead bury the dead' to mean what it says literally? If you don't then you're cherry picking which verses you want to mean what and applying your interpretation to fit what you want it to mean just like the clergy do. God gave us a mind to think for ourselves not follow blindly. The interpretation of Satan as an entity has been the one pushed by the clergy but I don't follow them and my mind says it's a figurative term used to portray the worst qualities of man. Satan exists as much as darkness does. Can you put darkness in a bulb and turn it on? Darkness is absence of light. Evil is absence of good. Satan is a myth and really refers to the insistent self or ego not some superstitious monster.

"The worst qualities of man" didn't give Job boils. Or enter into heaven, to talk with God.

Jesus, being perfect, did not have 'bad qualities' to be tempted and battled with. Those temptations came from an intelligent source.

When Moses threw down his staff before Pharaoh, and God turned it into a snake (Exodus 7).....who turned Jannes and Jambres staffs into snakes?
There are many other evidences showing the Devil to be real. You should rethink what you've been told. The Scriptures are pretty clear when meditating on those that discuss the subject. Also, consider the war in heaven in Revelation 12:7-12
 
What makes you think that the screwed up? The alternative was to remain in their perfection for eternity and we would have never been born. Instead, Eve partook of the fruit and lost her innocent allowing her to procreate and kick start the human race. How did she screw up. Your understanding of "reasoned logic" is a mess, which is no doubt the reason for your fall from grace..

According to your "logic" in previous posts humanity is all sinners because Adam and Eve brought evil into existence wrecking god's PERFECT creation. Now you try to make it sound like god planned this all along. Either way, a creator shares responsibility for whatever problems his/her creation makes. According to your "logic" weapon makers share no responsibility for the deaths caused by the weapons they create.

Who do you think God, a perfect being both physically and spiritually, ordered to commit murder. Whose life was threatening our existence so badly that it had to be taken in order that man may be. Why do you care, none of it is true, according to you.

What are you talking about? In the story of Job, god told satan to kill Job's kids. How is that moral? What is the righteous message this sadistic story is supposed to be teaching?

You gave up your chance to be with god by succumbing to carnality.

You're deciding who gets to be with god now? When did you get this promotion? Also, you know nothing about me, I'll ask you again to stop making personal attacks.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
SkepticThinker and serp777

It would very much be to your advantage to read and ponder the word of both "Hockeycowboy" and "Loverofhumanity". Both of them speak with the spirit of God and what they say is such a huge reflection on my own beliefs, but put so much more succinctly then I could endeavour to put it, so much so that I feel humbled when I read their word. They are both far better Christians then I am, so if it is the true principles of the Gospel you seek, if it is a better understanding of the character of God that you want then debate with these two emissary of God and the eyes of your understanding will be opened.

Notice that they pull no punches in what they write, yet they both portray the love and humility of the God they worship. No guile and retaliatory hostility in their post as can at oft times be found in mine, they are far more Christ centred then I am, so, you would benefit far more by seeking their opinion then you would by writing huge posts full of frivolous superficial tripe that result in offensive and contentious rhetoric, that causes a desensitivity and derision of it by dulling the senses. You become used to wallowing in deep water to the detriment of the soul. You get used to deflecting insults and misrepresentation leaving you senselessly arguing a point that is not always worth defending so arduously over in an attempt to discredit for intertainment. So, if you listen to nothing else I write, then listen to these apologists of God
 
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Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
According to your "logic" in previous posts humanity is all sinners because [2]Adam and Eve brought evil into existence [3] wrecking god's PERFECT creation. Now you try to make it sound like god planned this all along. [4]Either way, a creator shares responsibility for whatever problems his/her creation makes. According to your "logic" weapon makers share no responsibility for the deaths caused by the weapons they create.

1. Firstly, when you say things like this I become uncomfortable because your perceptions and comprehension of me, and what I write, is usually dubious, at best. Your logic is alien to me. It is a reflection of the blame culture that has creeped into society where blame is far better then admitting your mistakes and inadequacies, evidenced in you attempt to blame God for our choices.

2. Adam and Eve didn't bring evil into the world, that was Satan. They brought mortality and carnality with all of its ramifications, one of which is sin, or opposition. Actually, God did plan this, with us, all along. They once knew a place where there was no wrong and right, just contentment, but they fell into sin and mortality once they swallowed the flesh of the forbidden fruit. If they hadn't then we would not be here and they would still be in the garden of Edon not knowing the difference between good and evil, wrong and right.
3. They didn't wreck Gods plan either. It was a plan devised by all of us so it was all of our plan and not an individuals plan.

1. It was a part of Gods plan that they should fall into mortality because if they didn't then they couldn't procreate and replenish the earth. It was essential to the entire Plan of Salvation that they should fall.

2. God could not be in the presence of imperfection so when He created Adam and Eve they were perfect as

3. He was. So how could He cause them to fall. The only way was with original sin. One of them had to sin and she did.​

4. We are here to be tried and tested in the flesh. How is that possible if God is responsible for our actions because He created our original parents. How can we be held accountable for our choices? What would you do if little Johnny ate your last chocolate bar and his response to your anger was "but daddy, it is not just my fault because God created me so you must tell Him off as well. It is a copout. Johnny made the choice so Johnny is entirely responsible for that choice that he made. No one else. Also, He did not create us, my parents did that. He created Adam and Eve and they created the human race. Weapon makers do not share any responsibility for the deaths their weapons cause. It is those with that kind of mentality who are solely responsible for those deaths. But your honor it wasn't just me who killed my next door neighbour it was God who created me, according to your logic.​

What are you talking about? In the story of Job, god told satan to kill Job's kids. How is that moral? What is the righteous message this sadistic story is supposed to be teaching?

God said: - "Then the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him."

God suffered Job to be tried, as he suffered Peter to be sifted. It is our comfort that God has the devil in a chain. He has no power to lead men to sin, but what they give him themselves; nor any power to afflict men, but what is given him from above. All this is here described to us after the manner of men. The Scripture speaks thus to teach us that God directs the affairs of the world.

One can only suffer from adversity if that is what they chose. If you have sufficient faith then Job's loss of his wife would not be a suffering to him as he would know where she is and that, but for a short time, they would be back together again. The same effect covers all things that we believe is adversity. For a short period Job succumbed to his situation and complained to God, however, he was soon back on the straight and narrow.

You only suffer if you are an atheist and have no beliefs, or you are a Christian that lacks sufficient faith in God to know that this is part of being tried and tested. Our reason for being here in the first place. God allowed Satan to try and break Job because he knew that Job was faithful so would not suffer from anything that Satan could throw at him. You cannot see that because if someone steals your car then you become angry and hurt, you suffer, however, the correct response would be to not allow it to effect you because you know that everything happens for a reason. By allowing it to cause suffering is to fail the test.

You're deciding who gets to be with god now? When did you get this promotion? Also, you know nothing about me, I'll ask you again to stop making personal attacks.

And I will tell you again that it is not a personal attack, it is a reality born out by the fact that you are no longer a Christian. I don't need to know you to know that. Like Job you are being tested but have failed the test because you are offended. I could say the same about your unfounded accusation that I am giving instruction to a God that I worship by way of a promotion thus mocking me, however, I am not going to allow your words to hurt me so I have past the test.
 
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
You know a bit about everything, in my experience, no surprise that you have the alcoholism gene, but I actually do, but you do not show that you know a great deal about alcoholism because you attribute genetics to the cause and that is not true.
Thanks for lamely attempting to insult me. That was funny.

Anyhoo, alcoholism is genetic. The link you gave reinforces that fact that myself and another poster had previously pointed out. So as it turns out, I do know what I'm talking about. You're the person trying to say alcoholism isn't genetic. That would make you wrong. Sorry.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
That is exactly why I check your words because you have explained it so I need to get it confirmed because you are frequently wrong and you know all of the standard atheists skulduggery. .
I'm right. Again. Sorry. Deal with it.

So, when he said that Alcoholism is caused by genetics he meant genetics and environment. Yea of course he did. Nice to see that you remembered serp777's user id tonight.

Ah, right. that is why you and serp777 didn't mention it. Got Ya
I think you need to go do some reading on how genes work if you're making an issue out of that.

You can go and verify for yourself that the both of us gave a fairly detailed explanation of the interaction between genes and environment as it pertains to alcoholism (and most everything else, really). You clearly haven't bothered doing that yet. Why is that?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
With all due respects, if you, and serp777, who is a lot worse then you are for comprehension, say it is a decent explanation then it probably is not, judging by my previous exchanges with you. I think that although you try to portray yourself as someone who is intellectually astute, and should be listened to, you really need to be a tad more humble and introspective, because you are not what your brain tells you that you are.

You do love to repeat yourself in the hope that repetition of a lie will make it a truth It is called Argument from Repetition Argument from repetition refers to someone repeating a statement often in the hopes that the listener will begin to accept it as truth, instead of providing evidence.
How about canning the (attempt at) personal attacks and actually attacking the argument/point being discussed?
Funny how this happens when you've been incorrect about something.

What I said about genetics and alcoholism was accurate. It was mirrored in the links you provided in an attempt to discredit that information. Get over it.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
My understanding of one of the meanings of Adam and Eve is that God tells them His ways are perfect and the cause of happiness, progress and peace and the snake represents our pride or ego telling us we know best but when we eat of the forbidden fruit of 'disobedience' to God's ways and teachings we experience unhappiness, suffering, war and the very things we see in our morally corrupt and decadent world today.

But if we turn to God and obey His laws and teachings we are assured that earth will become like a Garden of Eden. This has always been the promise and warning of God. The choice is ours to make. So far we have chosen hell on earth instead of a paradise which shows we are not very intelligent or mature to make such decisions which bring suffering upon all humanity. This is just one meaning of Adam & Eve and the snake and Garden of Paradise.
 

Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
I'm incredibly curious as to where you're getting this information from(?). I don't think I've ever heard such an interpretation before.

No, not the universe....but, according to the Bible, this world is under his control, even Jesus recognized it (John 12:31; 1 John 5:19; Revelation 12:9). (I mean, just think about it: people told that, by committing suicide and killing others in the process, they're doing God's will? Or that, how to get rid of AIDS, they need to have sex with virgins? Men are being influenced by evil, invisible forces). No wonder the Scriptures counsel Christians to avoid the world! (James 4:4; 1 John 2:15-17) It's not going to last forever ( 1 John 3:8; Matthew 6:9-10; Revelation 21:3-4).

What do you make of Ya'quub's interpretation, and do you have any suggestions as to where it's come from?
 

Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
The problem with a literal view of Satan as an individual other than the perpetrator is that it shifts responsibility and blame away from the culprit who should be held to account and answerable for his misdeeds. No one but ourselves should be held responsible so that we are faced with the fact we must reform. It's easy to go into denial and blame these things on a monster devil but basically humanity has turned away from God and so has become enmeshed in selfish desires and violent ways and it has only itself to blame no third party.
I don't quite know about that: we are products of our environment. If a creator god births us in primate bodies piloted by primate brains, and has us live in a competative dog-eat-dog 'survival of the fittest' natural order, then said creator cannot complain when we show aggression and dominance in order to survive and thrive on a hostile world.
 

OurCreed

There is no God but Allah
If you're a child and your parent is looking over your shoulder, you know you can't rob the cookie jar without getting caught. With God, who is ostensibly omnipresent. But if we knew God existed, we wouldn't be able to do anything without God knowing. Ergo, God rigged things so we not only couldn't know, but not even suspect--based on anything but hearsay.

And using the Koran or Bible to show that what it says is right has always been the most blatant example of circular logic.

What's your point?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The one element people have left out of this argument is the Unknown. People have assumed that God created the world knowing that we would suffer but have left out the possibility that it may be towards a good end. A seed sacrifices itself and becomes a tree bearing fruit. A candle weeps its life away giving light. Childbirth is extremely painful but what is the result? Just because it is painful or involves sacrifice or suffering doesn't mean it's bad.
This rationale only works if your god is not omnipotent. Is your god omnipotent?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
God can't intervene or even reveal Itself without undermining our free will and thus spoiling the test. It's God's own Prime Directive.
This implies that an obvious choice is equivalent to no choice at all.

It also undercuts its own premises, since if we've established that even the claim of God's mere existence can't be justified rationally, then any statements about God's values and objectives are necessarily unjustified.

After all, any reasonable basis you might have for concluding that there exists a God who cares about free will would also serve as a reasonable basis for concluding that God exists, period, but you've just argued against any reasonable basis to conclude that God exists.
 
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