Why does it seem that God never intervenes in Human Suffering

[Serenity7855]

I think the sooner mankind dismisses these superstitious religions the sooner mankind can get on with actual Life

I think that as soon as we can get all hostile atheists, shipped off to a dessert island where they can all act in their wanton immorality and agree with each other that Christianity is for the idiots to believe, which is none of their business, then the sooner we can get humanity back to being a contented and happy civilisation again. It shows what character that they have by this very unnecessary provocative post. What has it got to do with you if Christians worship God. No one is asking you to, yet you come on here and insult Christians for, what appears to be, no real reason other than a desire to be hostile and offensive. Maybe you should mind your own business and get on with your actual life.

 

[Serenity7855]

What do you mean by "weakening of the gene pool"? In what way is this outside of God's control?

We are all living longer than our ancestors because of better healthcare, sanitation and so on. This is obviously a good thing for each of us as individuals. But the effects on the DNA of humankind may not be so wonderful.

A new review in GENETICS explains this potential problem pretty well. It has to do with DNA changes or mutations that pop up in each generation. And the loss of the ability to weed out the ones with minor, negative effects.

Over time, these minor mutations might build up and have serious consequences. Left unchecked, our DNA might decline in quality, generation after generation.
http://genetics.thetech.org/weakened-gene-pool

Then you haven't solved your original problem; you've just replaced it with a new one.

Don't you just hate intentional loaded questions. You know that they are loaded and said to intentionally entrap you in ambiguities but you always hope that decency will prevail. Maybe next time?

With the regular Problem of Evil, we ask "if God is perfectly good, then why all the apparent evil?" In your version of things, we can ask "if God is perfectly efficient, then why all the apparent inefficiency?"

No, we do not ask that, you do. Christian's know the score so say nothing. Atheists just look for, and make up, contentions to hassle us with, thinking they are smart. God is perfectly efficient, it is mankind that has the problem with it. You can see Gods efficiency in the Anthropic Principle, or fine tuning, Now that is efficient, but we don't mention that, do we?

And the original question about evil is still there, too, because you still haven't established that the evil and suffering in the world is necessary to achieve God's ends

Evil is not necessary to achieve Gods ends, other than it existing as an opposite. It is the nature of mankind to be immoral. They are carnal in nature. God ends, as you put it, are to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of mankind. His ends are to do anything that he can to insure that we make it. If you are not a part of the solution then you are a part of the problem, so take a sabbatical.

Because men became mortal when Adam partook of the forbidden fruit and sin entered the world. God had nothing to do with the evolution of mankind from innocence to debauchery. It is the result of our own choices, like teaching children immoral sexual principles in school that will eventually come back to haunt us. When Adam and Eve fell into mortality God had to take a back seat, and he has been there ever since because to intervene would bring colossal destruction to mankind. We need to stop blaming god, just to irritate Christians, because you do not believe that he exists, and start being nicer to each other.

And you don't think this complexity implies inefficiency?

Only if you are intellectually redundant. For God, it is a doddle, a walk in the park.

Have you heard the term 'Rube Goldberg machine"?

One only has problems with "Rube Goldberg machine" if you do not have the capacity to comprehend how it works. It cannot be overly complicated to the man with an astute mind.[/QUOTE]

 

[EtuMalku]

I think that as soon as we can get all hostile atheists, shipped off to a dessert island where they can all act in their wanton immorality and agree with each other that Christianity is for the idiots to believe, which is none of their business, then the sooner we can get humanity back to being a contented and happy civilisation again. It shows what character that they have by this very unnecessary provocative post. What has it got to do with you if Christians worship God. No one is asking you to, yet you come on here and insult Christians for, what appears to be, no real reason other than a desire to be hostile and offensive. Maybe you should mind your own business and get on with your actual life.

I'd say the evil track record for Christianity speaks for itself

 

[Serenity7855]

I'd say the evil track record for Christianity speaks for itself

The track record is held by mankind and not God.

 

[EtuMalku]

The track record is held by mankind and not God.

Of course since there is no god

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I may be completely wrong, however, I get the impression that you are relatively young and still testing the water. I think that you are doing the right thing by questioning Christianity, and any other religion for that matter, so that your choices are informed, therefore, reducing the hidden obstacle that could trip you up. I believe that you are a pantheist, which is a faith that I have a great deal of respect for and pretty much agree with. I hope that you are happy in your faith. I used to call myself a Pagan-Christian because I believe equally in both beliefs, however, I thought that it sounded infantile so I dropped it.
.
Carlita, I must clarify for you my status as a Mormon. My belief system is very much entrenched in the beliefs of Mormonism. I was a fully active member for 25 years but ill health meant that I could no longer attend. I had sacrement brought to me for a while but that dwindled and eventually stopped altogether when the Bishop changed. Over the last decade I have had time to make a more indepth study of Mormonism and found that in some areas it was implausible and unacceptable sophistry and subterfuge, especially around the Mark Hofmans incident and the Salamander letter. I think that because I had been less than active those little improprieties got to me and escalated but there was nothing I could do because I was physically incapable of going to church. If not for life's unexpected happenstances I would no doubt still be a fully paid up member. Sadly, there are no churches that come anywhere near to the accuracy of the doctrines of Mormonism so I just continued with my belief on my own. One solace that I have is that my wife is in her 35th year of being a fully active Mormon so she keeps my faith strong. So, to confirm what Katzpur has said, she is right I am no longer a member of the LDS Church.

I appreciate it (I haven't read this in full, just want to clarify). I am not young, though. I guess it is a matter of perspective? I actually don't question Christianity on my spare time. I'm comfortable with how the Church interprets it; and, let it be since it is not my personal belief system nor something I was raised with. I just happen to be in a christian environment for four years today so far. I've talked with many Christians (well, they talked with me). I live with Catholics, JW, and protestants (so far I know since we live in community housing). All three of which have wanted me to come to their faith.

The JW are pretty nice. We still keep in touch with each other on a friendship basis. I tell them what I believe and they tell me what they believe. We have a mutual understanding that I will not practice Christianity (by the Church, I am already Christian. I just need to go to confession) and they won't change theirs. I don't practice because it makes me feel terrible inside. A religion or faith shouldn't do that no matter how one understands or misunderstands it. We can question and try to justify how John shot Bill; however, the point is, Bill is dead regardless the justification and John shot him. No one can justify Christianity so that I can morally accept the basics of the protestant view. No one can make me feel better inside by going back to practice Catholicism. It's not that Catholicism is bad. Everyone has their "days". I feel they (Othorodox) are closer to Christianity; and, it morally doesn't sit right with me.

In other words, RF is nice to question faiths and so forth; however, we it is hard to tell if one is searching or if one is questioning for curiosity and learning other peoples' points of view. I am doing the latter. I have never questioned my faith nor asked "why am I here?" I never grow up like that to question who I am in that context.

It's an intelligence assumption, Serenity especially depending on your age is depending on how "young" I am. However, from a sense only of people on RF, I'm older than most.

Let me go back and read about the topic we are discussing. I get a lot of age discrimination here because I look about five years younger than my age. That's a whole thread in itself: age discrimination. So, I get bothered by it. Not all "young" people question themselves and who they are. It depends on how they are raised and what spirituality they are influenced by. That or it could be environmental. I don't know. I had other medical issues and moving around to have time to question my existence and, out of all faiths, Christianity.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I hope that you are happy in your faith. I used to call myself a Pagan-Christian because I believe equally in both beliefs, however, I thought that it sounded infantile so I dropped it.

I've always hated the word Pagan-Christian. I never called myself Pagan until I came on RF, actually. It helps with dialogue; and, since some pagans practice witchcraft, which I do religiously, it seemed the best "title". I am only a Christian by sacrament. I feel to be Christian, I'd have to be a practicing one and still be in communion with the sacraments of the Church; I am not, so.

Since I wasn't raised with a faith nor around an environment that pushed it on me, I practice witchcraft religiously. I don't care for names, I just live, practice, and be. I hold Buddhist values 100 percent; and, not initiated, so I don't refer to myself as Buddhist. I'm just a religious gypsy. No name. Just all practice from eating breakfast to prayer, work to ritual. Just me.

Edit: Yeah, ever since I came on RF I found out I am a atheist, pantheist, pagan (rather than Pagan, as so defined in their DIR), animist, and I forgot the other one.

Sadly, there are no churches that come anywhere near to the accuracy of the doctrines of Mormonism so I just continued with my belief on my own. One solace that I have is that my wife is in her 35th year of being a fully active Mormon so she keeps my faith strong. So, to confirm what Katzpur has said, she is right I am no longer a member of the LDS Church.

That is sad. Community is very important in one's faith; and, I believe Christianity is a communal faith rather than solitary.

With Mormonism, I don't know too much what they believe if any. It's something to ponder; but, not question as in seeking. I'm used to fundamental and Catholicism in regards to Christianity. A bit of JW, as said by going to the Hall. I was going to go to their all day convention, but they don't take a break, so..

 

[Serenity7855]

Of course since there is no god

Indubitably, but that only begs the question of why you are here arguing and offending Christians if you think that there is no God. Seems a little odd, in my estimation.

 

[EtuMalku]

Indubitably, but that only begs the question of why you are here arguing and offending Christians if you think that there is no God. Seems a little odd, in my estimation.

1) This is a debate Group
2) I hate to see people duped
3) The sooner that these Abrahamic faiths are eradicated, the sooner Mankind can get on with evolving

 

[Serenity7855]

1) This is a debate Group

I know what it is, I just cannot think of any other circumstances where the main participants are those that do not associate themselves with the main topic of debate. It would be like me entering into debate on neurosurgery and expecting my opinion to be taken seriously, and your opinion will be taken seriously here by those of the same mindset as you, because sadly, you are not unique in you genocidal expectations.

2) I hate to see people duped

You don't know that they are. As much as I cannot prove God's existence you cannot prove that He does not exist, therefore, your reasoning is a sham and counterfeit.

3) The sooner that these Abrahamic faiths are eradicated, the sooner Mankind can get on with evolving

Have you any idea what you are proposing when you say "The sooner that these Abrahamic faiths are eradicated"? Eradicated means to wipe out, eliminate, remove, destroy, get rid of, abolish, erase, excise, extinguish, stamp out, obliterate, uproot, weed out, annihilate, put paid to, root out, efface, exterminate, expunge, extirpate, wipe from the face of the earth. Now what kind of debater comes here with that hideous goal in mind. Someone who does not like to see people being duped or a WUM who wants to obliterate the freedom of religious choice? History tells us the fate of such dictatorial tyrants. If I were to say the same thing here about gays then I would be chastised and berated by most of the membership of the forum, yet you say the same thing about christians with apparent impunity. For one human being to wish such a atrocity on another, openly and without remorse, is tantamount to wishing genocide on a group of individuals for the freedom of speech and right to religious freedom. And you expect to be taken seriously? You are clearly not here for constructive debate, that is for sure, more like destructive debate.

 

[Desert Snake]

1) This is a debate Group
2) I hate to see people duped
3) The sooner that these Abrahamic faiths are eradicated, the sooner Mankind can get on with evolving

How do you know that you aren't being duped?

 

[EtuMalku]

How do you know that you aren't being duped?

Duped by whom?

 

[Desert Snake]

Duped by whom?

Would it matter? You brought up the idea of /people being duped by their religious adherence

 

[EtuMalku]

How do you know that you aren't being duped?

Sure, being agnostic I admit I don't hold the answer to whether an Abrahamic god exists or not
These are my opinions

 

[Serenity7855]

Sure, being agnostic I admit I don't hold the answer to whether an Abrahamic god exists or not
These are my opinions

If you admit that you don't hold the answer to whether an Abrahamic Good exists or not, then how can you say "the sooner that these Abrahamic faiths are eradicated, the sooner Mankind can get on with evolving." all the time that there is the remotest possibility that the Abrahamic God exists. Because, if you want to eradicate the Abrahamic God, and that remotest chance is a reality, then consider what you are saying, before you say it.

 

[EtuMalku]

If you admit that you don't hold the answer to whether an Abrahamic Good exists or not, then how can you say "the sooner that these Abrahamic faiths are eradicated, the sooner Mankind can get on with evolving." all the time that there is the remotest possibility that the Abrahamic God exists. Because, if you want to eradicate the Abrahamic God, and that remotest chance is a reality, then consider what you are saying, before you say it.

Because the Abrahamic religious people are destroying this life. I don't share their beliefs in a God

 

[viole]

I think that as soon as we can get all hostile atheists, shipped off to a dessert island where they can all act in their wanton immorality and agree with each other that Christianity is for the idiots to believe, which is none of their business, then the sooner we can get humanity back to being a contented and happy civilisation again. It shows what character that they have by this very unnecessary provocative post. What has it got to do with you if Christians worship God. No one is asking you to, yet you come on here and insult Christians for, what appears to be, no real reason other than a desire to be hostile and offensive. Maybe you should mind your own business and get on with your actual life.

We would all be happy to do that if you restricted your beliefs in the private or on religious forums.

But the moment the lot of you tries to influence public policy and the rest of us with morality statements because your (imaginary) God told you so, then be ready for your beliefs to take the heat.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Serenity7855]

We would all be happy to do that if you restricted your beliefs in the private or on religious forums.

Naah, you say that but you would just find a way in to taunt and upset people. You are all of the same ilk so what would you say to each other without agreeing with each other. Because of the diversity in Christianity we could have some interesting debates, if not for those all to familiar subtle remarks like "the sooner that these Abrahamic faiths are eradicated, the sooner Mankind can get on with evolving." from someone who doesn't even believe in God. I suppose the correct rebuttal should be that the opposite is just as true, that is, if you restricted your disbelief in the private or on the atheist forums.

But the moment the lot of you tries to influence public policy and the rest of us with morality statements because your (imaginary) God told you so, then be ready for your beliefs to take the heat.

The lot of you? You are referring to us like cattle. Do you know, I have never witnessed any true Christian that feels like he/she is taking any heat. There is certainly no one here capable of making us feel your heat. It is clear to see that your insults and offenses are more to be pitied then scorned because you simply do not have our knowledge so your judgements are tainted and without any substance, you just don't know what we know. It is sad to think that you could seriously think that we are offended with you unnecessary repugnant rhetoric. That is all that you have, hostility, and you are welcome to it. They have no serious debating issues for honest and constructive debate, just the usual ridicule and offense. All it does is to increase the comradery between atheists on here, perpetuating the hostility, thus bringing your personal integrity into disrepute by unscrupulous debating tactics

Firstly, to say that God is imaginary is not only carelessly *provocative and argumentative, it is a statement made in total ignorance of the facts, that 2.2 billion Christians say different. Just because your lifestyle is not conducive to the Spirit of God, therefore, making you ignorant to His very real existence, does not mean that He is imaginary, it just means that you are not privy to Him. 2.2 billion Christian, that is twice as many Christians then atheists, would beggar to disagree.

Secondly. what do you consider wrong with policies being influence by moral statements, like, we should love one another, be kind to one another, don't steel your neighbor's lawn mower or have an affair with his wife after killing her husband for daring to be a Christian in public. Now, it is quite possible for you to feel that it is an intrusion should religion instill it's righteous principles into our political system because it just might make a real difference, and, I am sure, that you do not want those kind of ethical values in our society,, especially when everything that is related to Christianity is honorable and morally sound, that can only do our country good. But I understand that there are people around who just want to keep the wicked immoralities and debaucheries, mainly atheists, like yourself.

*Provocative: which mean that you are intentionally and deliberately being:
Annoying, irritating, exasperating, infuriating,provoking, maddening, goading, vexing, galling;
affronting, insulting, offensive, inflaming, rousing,arousing, inflammatory, incendiary, controversial;
Something inside of you wants to emotionally hurt someones feeling because they do not believe the same as you. It is a poor demonstration of empathy and understanding.

The plain and simple facts are that there is no reason for aggressive atheists, who only ridicule and belittle decent folk on here, to acts so badly by insulting and offending Christians in the most despicable and sarcastic manner, just because we have different belief. I am constantly being asked why they do that, with my answer always being "I just don't know", Call them bigots or narrow minded and they are offended by that, yet they constantly insinuate that Christians are mentally challenged. It is no different to the days when blacks had no rights and the freedom to choice. Or the abuse endured by homosexuals because of their preferred sexual orientation. It is people who cannot mind their own business and think that if they belief it then it must be right and anyone who opposes it is wrong. It is just like narcissism. What is frightening is that these people have responsible positions in our society.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Boy oh boy, does this whining and victimization ever get tiring.

I don't think you're cut out for debate forums.

 

[Koldo]

If your God exists then why does He allow children to starve and pedophiles to exist. It is one of the most frequently asked questions of atheists and one that they think dismisses the existence of God. On another thread and another topic I recieved this post that caused me to think that maybe it is not something that Christians know or believe. Maybe it was lost with the creeds?



I believe that the answer is so obvious that we do not consider it. You first have to consider why you are here, what is this life all about and what happens to us when it is all over? Why are we here?
Coming here allows you to:

• Receive a physical body.
• Exercise agency and learn to choose between good and evil.
• Learn and gain experience that will help you become more like your Heavenly Father.
• Form family relationships that may become eternal.
• To be tried and tested in the flesh to see if we will have sufficient faith if God to keep His commandments.

Your life didn’t begin at birth and it won’t end at death. Before you came to earth, your spirit lived with Heavenly Father who created you. You knew Him, and He knew and loved you. It was a happy time during which you were taught God’s plan of happiness and the path to true joy.

One thing that makes this life so hard sometimes is that we’re out of God’s physical presence. Not only that, but we can’t remember our pre-earth life which means we have to operate by faith rather than sight. God didn’t say it would be easy, but He promised His spirit would be there when we needed Him. Even though it feels like it sometimes, we’re not alone in our journey.

So what is faith? To have faith is to “hope for things which are not seen, which are true” Hebrews 11:1). Each day you act upon things you hope for, even before you see the end result. This is similar to faith. Faith in God is more than a theoretical belief in Him. To have faith in God is to trust Him, to have confidence in Him, and to be willing to act on your belief in Him. It is a principle of action and power. That is the test that we are here to take. The test of our faith. To make choices that reflect upon that faith in Christ. If we had a perfect knowledge of Him then we could not be tried and tested by our faith because a perfect knowledge and faith could not exist together, there is either one or the other. There is a Mormon scripture that discribes this very well

Alma 32: 17-21

17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.

18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.

19 And now, how much more cursed is he thatknoweth the will of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression?

20 Now of this thing ye must judge. Behold, I say unto you, that it is on the one hand even as it is on the other; and it shall be unto every man according to his work.

21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

And that is the reaso why God cannot intervene and prevent the children from starving or take away the temptations of the pedophile. As soon as He does then the whole meaning of our existence will no longer be tenable and we would all be subjected to Satan. It is not that God turns His back on those who are suffering, I am sure that He weeps for them and longs to do something to alliviate their suffering, however, He cannot do that without destroying the entire Plan of Salvation by taking away the essential ingredient of faith.

Now, that is my belief. As I believe that God is a personage of infinite knowledge, I believe, so the entire Plan of Salvation is perfect with every single eventuality being covered. What do you think?

What exactly is this 'Plan of Salvation' and why do we even need it in the first place ?