Carlita.
I think many non-christians would appreciate that view. I read in the Bible, which makes logical sense, that if you do not believe in god, then god will not be present in your life.
That is only true from the perspective of humanity. God is always there waiting and willing to love us with open arms.
If you don't want or don't believe your mother loves you, how, no matter how righteous you are, can benefit from her love. It is more of a behavioral lie or delusion. For example, if I were righteous and I do not believe in god, what logical right do I have to accept a gift when I am do not love or even know the person who is giving it to me? Why take a gift from someone I do not know, not even as an acquaintance? Not even as a stranger?
I have to ask, have I made an insinuation that God gives us gifts? It is not a part of my belief system, however, I may well have made a reference to it that is ambiguous or quoted incorrectly. I am not sure what you mean by a gift either. Are you saying that it is a spiritual gift, a new MP3 player or wisdom.
I understand because I receive gifts and blessings from the spirits and my family all the time. However, just like on earth, my aunt can give me a gift and so can John Doe. It's alright they both give me gifts, however, I know and love my aunt. I do not know John Doe at all to even appreciate the gift (and see it as a gift). It could be for any reason. I do not believe or want to believe because another person's claim (no matter if it is Peter or John in the 21st century). It should be a personal relationship.
I suspect that I am in total agreement with you here. Your relationship with God should be personal, between you and Him, not between congregations or church hierarchy. When I became a Mormon I was very suspicious of them because I did not know them yet they were treating me like we had been friends for many years. I found it very disconcerting and claustrophobic all the time that I was a member. I now think that I was at fault for being suspicious of people whose intentions were honourable.
My point: Without that, how can you be righteous in god's eyes if you do not know the gift he gives you to see it valuable?
We all have the "Light of Christ", or a conscience, regardless of who we are. We all know what is right and what is wrong. The only differences between us is what drives us to make our choices. You do not have to be told not to steal someones possessions, you know it is wrong instinctively. You can lead a Christ Centred Life without knowing Christ. Morals are not unique to Him they are written on our hearts.
Romans 2:14-15
14 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law,
15 since they show that the work of the Law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them.
Logically, I understand that it is common courtesy for those who know Jesus existed and know he took their sins. It can be written in the Bible, in the dictionary, and spoken out of both a believer's and a scholars mouths, and that does not make it true to any person that has no personal relationship with that belief (your statement). It's not relevant and it is not real to a lot of people.
Yes, in part I would have to concur, however, that only relates to certain unique aspects of Christianity. Like the resurrection, the fall or the ascension. If you are talking about the morals that should be instilled in all of our hearts, regardless of religious beliefs, then we are accountable for any wrong doings that are our responsibility, if not to your God then to yourself and those you wrong. But I agree with you when it comes to unique religious practices.
I know that is hard to believe. Do you understand why that makes sense? Do you understand that in order to be thankful for someone else's gratitude, there needs to be knowledge both personal and factual of that person's existence and some type of relationship that lets that person value the gift that you said Jesus gave him (or did for him)?
I am not sure that I do. Is the child suffering from malnutrition grateful for the donation of food that a stranger has made. Is the house owners grateful to the Fire Department for preventing their house from burning to the ground. Are the homeless grateful to those in the soup kitchens for their kindness? I have no personal experience of any of these situations, however, I would like to think that I would feel gratitude for those mercies.
In my point of view, what your statement is illogical not just morally but factually too. In order to be thankful for a gift you receive, you have to know the person who gave it to you exist. In order to benefit from this gift, you have to see value in it: not God, not Jesus, you (the person in general)
Have you ever heard of the "Gratitude Stone" spoken of in a book called "The Secret"? Gratitude stones are basically a simple way to remind yourself to be grateful for what you have in your life. A lot of people jumped on the wagon when it was mentioned on the popular film and book called
The Secret. The truth is though, gratitude stones have been around for far longer. The idea is that you put a stone in your pocket and throughout the day you keep finding it there. When you do it reminds you to be grateful of all you have in your life. It serves as a reminder so you can keep your spiritual focus. These days in the hustle and bustle of modern life we tend to forget about how good our life is, how lucky we are. Perhaps you are waiting at a bus stop on a cold and wet day, thinking what a horrible day it is. Then you by chance put your hands in your pocket and find the gratitude stone. Instantly this will remind you how lucky you are. You could be starving or homeless, but no – you have a good life.
Can you see that your synopsis can be viewed from a completely different angle. By being grateful for all that you are, have and look forward to, regardless of your relationship to those who will bless your life, you can benefit just by being grateful, even if the people that bless your life don't know you, or you them. I have a gratitude stone so I can testify that they work.
If people are unrighteous and can loose their salvation, that is the consequence that God has given them not the person. For example, if I were a child and threw a toy at by brother, I would not receive any consequences (outside of my belief in karma) unless my mother created consequences in which she places on me. So, she may tell me to sit in the corner.
No one can loose their salvation. It is a gift from God. To be saved - or to gain salvation - means to be saved from physical and spiritual death. Because of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected and saved from physical death, regardless as to who they are. Everybody, who has lived on earth, will receive salvation.
I think that you mean that people may also be saved from
individual spiritual death through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, by their faith in Him, by living in obedience to the laws and ordinances of His gospel, and by serving Him.
that is the consequence that God has given them not the person.
That is indeed one way of looking at it, however, God has not given them the consequences, they have given it to themselves by their choices. They knew that there were consequences to their actions and they knew that by continuing in that path would mean that they would have to endure the consequences of their actions. I am not really sure if God has any part in that. I get the feeling that like natural laws are self actuating as a direct consequence of a cause, so our supernatural laws are also self actuating as a direct consequence of a cause. They react in the same way as natural laws, by cause and effect.
For example, if I were a child and threw a toy at by brother, I would not receive any consequences (outside of my belief in karma) unless my mother created consequences in which she places on me. So, she may tell me to sit in the corner.
Regardless as to who saw you do it you will receive a just reward for your action. It is inevitable, having no escape. It is a supernatural law of the universe.
In god's case, they loose eternal salvation. If people are to grow and learn their spirituality, should do so without the threat of loosing their salvation. God has given them an ultimatum that is forced in their hands by their actions because of god's consequences. If the "snake" wasn't there, then all would be righteous.
It would take rather more than throwing a toy at your sister to forgo salvation. The only ones that will lose that are the third of the host of heaven that went with Satan, Satan himself and the son's of perdition. But as I have said, everyone will receive salvation, regardless of who they are or what they have done.
Again, it is not Gods consequences it is mans consequences. If you know that what you are doing is wrong and that it has a consequence then you have to be prepared to endure that consequence. It is your choice. Commit the sin and pay the price, do not commit the sin and reap the rewards. God plays no part in that, we do.
If the snake were not there then we would not be here. There had to be a fall in order for mankind to exist.
Do you feel it is expected for someone who is not Christian to accept god's gift? Do you feel that that person who is not Christian does not have genuine love without Christs (since everything comes from Christ)?
I do not know. Nobody can be expected to do anything, which is why we have free agency. Why wouldn't you accept Gods gift? The only way that I can see you not accepting it is if there are negative strings attached.
No I don't, but I believe that love is another supernatural law. No one has ownership of it.
This is an odd statement. I would think in every abrahamic faith in every other degree, everything is depended on god since god is the creator.
God created the earth for us to be tried and tested in the flesh. That could only be achieved without intervention by God as that would give the game away. Hence, we are the authors of our own destruction. In effect, everything is dependant on us, and we are not doing a very good job of it so far.
The italics is one of my points. That is why I say it is an ultimatum. If god is making us the authors of our own destruction, then we have no other way out but to love him or love sin.
Or just live a righteous lifestyle.
That is fine Carlita. We are individuals with differing opinions.
