Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

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Hi Thau,

1) PERSONAL REVELATION FROM GOD TO INDIVIDUALS AS EVIDENCE OF GODS EXISTENCE

Though your reference to Matt 16 as referring to the creation of a “church” is confusing (since that text doesn't reference the creation of a church - did you mean to use a different verse?), I think the underlying principle of your specific point in post 4489 regarding “manifestations” is profoundly important at the level of individual Christians (and other theists). Although one often cannot objectively and accurately judge second hand accounts of all “manifestations” for their authenticity or meaning, the point is related to the concept that specific and discrete communication between God and individuals has been one of the main principles which characterized authentic Christian religion of all ages of time.

Barring the fakers and the mentally ill, True revelation from God to an individual may serve, to the person(s) receiving it, as the deepest, most moving and influential experience and the most profound evidence to an individual that God exists. This is also partly why I liked 1ROBINs wonderful example of chess and revelation. I think that, barring the fakes and mentally ill, the phenomenon of revelation is the strongest reason that one can have to believe in the existence of God (though it is not the only reason individuals express for their belief in God).





2) CG DIDYMUS said “Do believe it is possible for any human being to follow the Law perfectly? What do you think happens if a person breaks the lest of the laws? Don't you believe they are guilty of all? In fact, aren't you saying all people are all ready guilty at birth? So what are you trying to prove? All I'm saying is that God made promises he knew he wouldn't have to keep. He knew the people would fail. He knew it was impossible for them to keep the Law. No matter how good they did, for how long, eventually they would stumble. Then, God could curse them all he wanted.”

I like CG DIDYMUS’ point and logic : Those who think God created imperfect beings and then punished them for being imperfect have simply created illogical and unreasonable theories of God; his plan and purposes.

Regarding the Christian theory that God creates imperfect beings and then expects perfection from them, and then punishes them for not being perfect. The problem does not lie, in the main, with the agnostics and atheists themselves (who are simply pointing out the illogic and the unreasonable and the irrational principles within this specific theory itself), but instead, the problem lies, in this specific case, in the Christian theories the Christians themselves created. Agnostics and Athiests and other theists are not pointing out problems with the real God, but with the theoretical God a theological theory creates.


CHRISTIANS CREATE AND HOLD TO THEOLOGY CONSISTENT WITH THEIR RELIGIOUS MOVEMENT
It is ironic that the Christians that have the least information are often those with the greatest conviction that they are correct and all others are wrong while the scholars and historians who have the most information speak of tentative and conjectural models which, they assume, have some degree of error and will change as they obtain better data. The problem is that it is the Christians with the unhealthy assumption that their personal interpretation is simply and perfectly “correct” and represents the "real" gospel of Jesus are the ones who, on a large scale, are most successful at advertising their version of reality. The Christian scholars rarely join forums because, although they create the very bibles the others read, still, their voices and their messages are often not very popular.

Even the scholars who create the very bibles the masses read, are able to see that their own interpretations are tentative. For example, James Sanders, (who was on the committee that created the NRSV bible) was discussing this very point in a discussion on biblical errors.

“Must we continue to pretend that only our group is right denominationally and others are not right, and it is just too bad about others?”

James wondered aloud “if it would not be proper for there to be an effort afoot to provide our people with the differences all along. I have been told by some that that would just destroy the Bible because lay folk still want to think of the Bible as somehow “inerrant.” The truth of the matter is that all biblical passages have been community property almost from the first repetition. It may well be that if there should ever be the possibility of discussing the text of Isaiah with Isaiah, he might very well say, “But I did not say that.” It has nonetheless become community Isaiah property and he might just have to live with it.”. (During a round table discussion between Lectures presented at a symposium at the, smithsonian institution. Oct 27, 1990 - biblical archaeology society, washington dc. )

I might point out that Saunders is a wonderful and respected translator. It was HE who was entrusted with Q11 of dead sea scrolls (psalms). He translated and edited and published it. So when I use him as an example of a translator who knows they are not translating correctly (e.g. Isaiah's complaint), he knows what he is speaking of. Often, the translators themselves, are sure that the text has a specific error, but the rendering is simply the best they can do until better data is available, while the Sunday school Christian is absolutely positive that the translation (rendered by the translator who knows it is incorrect) is the very word of God.

The very first printed version of the Greek bible by Erasmus illustrates this same problem. Erasmus correctly excluded the Johanine Comma (1 John 5:7-8) from his text since it was long known to be a spurious addition to the New Testament and did not appear in any greek manuscript (zero, zip, nada – none). However, the non-scholars and those with vested interests created such an uproar that Erasmus was pressured into including it into his third edition and spent much (MUCH) of the preface explaining why he re-introduced known errors into his biblical text. Luther (who did not seem to be scared of much), did not submit, and would not, include it in the bible he created. We Christians create inaccurate theology.


CREATING PROMISES FOR GOD

Often, “Sunday school” Christians simply do not see the source of error within their theology often comes from incredibly simple and overlooked points. The first western bibles were divided into verse and paragraphs by Estienne as he rode horseback, marking a biblical text with a pen where he thought divisions should be. There is a joke among scholars that some verse and paragraphs were created when his horse hit a rut, creating an inadvertent mark in the text since some of the divisions make little sense. However, such divisions can be incredibly important to doctrine, even a comma or period (which did not exist in early greek manuscripts).

For example, In one modern version of Luke 23:43 Jesus is speaking to Dymas (one of the thieves/criminals) hanged with Jesus and says something to the effect of “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

In this version, the comma is placed after the first “you” so that Dymas is promised that he will be in Paradise with Jesus, AND, that he will be in Paradise “today”. Other translators, such as Rotherham , place the comma AFTER the word “today” so that in his bible, Jesus says “Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise.

Thus, one bible, by virtue of simple comma placement, promises Dymas BOTH paradise AND that he will be there TODAY. In a different bible, Dymas is still promised paradise but he is not promised it will happen “today”. The first version of Jesus' promise is often used by those believing in immediate salvation by faith, (versus those believing something else is required of the believer.)

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WORD MEANING - paradise

Though “paradise” in this same verse is often used as a descriptive term for "heaven", the word did not necessarily mean the upper heavens in early Christian usage.

Παραδιζο (paradise) was a word of Persian origin and referred to the gardens outside the kings castle but not to his habitation itself. Thus the early christian literature in it's stories describing Dymas after death, have dymas enter the world of spirits (hades, sheol, etc) , but in their texts Dymas is not with Jesus in a glorious heaven.

Also, I used the term “upper heavens” since the greek word translators commonly rendered as heaven (a singular) is almost always actually “heavens” (a plural) in the greek new testament (another source of errors in translation). My point is that words (such as paradise) did not mean the same in ancient usage as Christians are using them nowadays. Thus, new doctrines and evolutions of original doctrines occur through punctuation and evolved word meaning.

In fact, differences in translations lead well-meaning Christian literalists to change the basic circumstances of the typical crucifixion story. For example, most bibles have Jesus being crucified between two other individuals. That is, three individuals are crucified.

The translator Rotherham (who is a wonderful translator) notes that matthew says Jesus was crucified between two robbers (λησται) while Luke says they were criminals (κακουργοι or evil “doers”&#8230. Thus, in Rotherhams' bible, FIVE are crucified, Jesus between two thieves and two criminals. Again, I am not trying to say that one version is better or worse than another version, but rather I am pointing out that differences affect translators just as they affect ALL of us.

However, in all versions, Jesus dies and is physically resurrected. Certain basic consistencies remain in the various witnesses. Still, how we personally view a text, determines its meaning to us as individuals, and creates and sustains certain doctrines as individuals and as groups.

For example, one modern christian theory time discusses salvation by "grace alone" or by a "living faith" as well. Does a reader personally assume the ancient writer is writing from the context of a “living faith” (i.e. a faith accompanied by actions of a person) or do we assume the ancient writer is writing from the context of a faith which is a “dead faith” (being a faith unaccompanied by any action of a person)? All of us invariably bring some personal assumptions to the text with us as we read and the text is often not clear enough to tell what the original writer intended.

In Ephesians 2:8 one translation renders the greek “8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of your own doing, it is the gift of God.” Does greek “τουτο” and "δωρον" (english “this” and "gift" respectively) refer to God’s Grace/Charity or to man’s faith (since both are mentioned).

Is God’s grace/Charity/Love "not of their own doing" or is their decision to have faith "not of their own doing"? Does "gift" apply only to grace, or only to faith, or only to salvation; or to all three? To complicate things, in the greek text, "of your own doing" does not exist in ANY greek version of this text but instead, there is an implied verb which NO greek text provides.

Thus translators must make their personal guess as to what verb to put in this place. When they do that, they have moved from translating text to creating doctrine.

Again, I am not speaking to which doctrine is correct or incorrect in this case; but rather I am trying to describe how doctrines are created by lack of clarity in texts and by assumptions which both the translator and the reader brings TO the text. How one applies meaning to this sentence; even to a single word, creates different doctrines.

Just as ancient theologians improperly removed parts of scriptures because the original text was uncomfortable to their bias (e.g. Matt 4:10), theologians ADD to scriptures to make a text more comfortable to their bias. For example, Luthers famous addition of “allein” (alone) to “durch den glauben” to Rom 3:28 created a sentence where “man is justified by faith alone” rather than “by faith” (both apart from the law). Though Luther was castigated for adding to the text, still, he may have felt justified in adding to the text in order to “clarify” what he felt the scriptures should have said.

Interestingly, for a similar reasons of personal bias, Luther removed the second of the ten commandments in his 1522 bible. Luthers bible (and his doctrine) became wildly popular in Europe. This is the reason the ten commandments were different in Protestant Europe and in Catholic Europe for a time.

Again, I am NOT saying Luther was wrong or right for making biblical changes to suit his bias. I am saying that ALL translators tend to interpret words according to their personal bias and they then put their bias into the text they create. As we enter the age of easier access to greater amounts of data, I do not see the literalist position as being able to survive. Despite the evolving changes that are happening within Christianity, I am personally quite sure that the spirit of God will continue to witness to individuals in personal revelation to the truth that there is a Loving God who lives, and that Jesus is the redeemer of all mankind. But, there will also be individuals who create doctrines whereby God either rewards or punishes based on unjust principles.

I understand why 1ROBIN was confused as to why I am so interested in what the earliest and most authentic Christian doctrines was (i.e. that which most likely represents apostolic era doctrine). I am interested in the earliest doctrines partly because I think the doctrines of early Christianity are MORE rational, MORE logical and MORE just in their worldview regarding the principles of reward and punishment than the theories of the various later Christian movements.

The early Christian worldview that ALL mankind (not just Christians) were judged on the basis of both moral knowledge and moral actions (i.e. what one did with what one was given) was more just. AND, there was no respecting of persons. Unrepentant Christians themselves were NOT excused nor rewarded if they continued immoral acts, but instead, were rewarded and punished on the same basis as athiests or other theists.


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σεακεισεφιω

 

[thau]

That's interesting. Tell me more. How do Catholic Christians feel about those that are good people from other religions, because the typical answer from an evangelical protestant is that none are good. If they haven't accepted Jesus into their heart, they will go to hell.

I assumed that was true when first taught about the Bible. I was told only a few selected verses that made everything sound exactly like those christians wanted me to believe, which included that Catholics were wrong. I was told, Catholics follow "traditions of men" and Jews follow "traditions of men". Then I listened to some Jewish friends that told me their interpretation.

Pertinent to this thread, Jews say we are born with a clean slate. Jews didn't have the same beliefs about the afterlife, hell, the satan, and about who and what their Messiah would be and what he'd accomplish. All based on the Bible and using it more in context than the christians. So, for that reason, I don't trust most interpretations that Christians have. But, I'll listen and if I feel there's reason to question what they say, I will. But, so far, I like what you're saying.

I am sure in God’s eyes we were born with a clean slate and it stays clean for a number of years until we reach an age of reason and accountability. Original sin is defined in many different ways but I believe it is a human nature that has a want to be self-centered in all things. Baptism marks us as consecrated to God but does not guarantee any final destiny. The unbaptized are surely allowed into heaven as well, all depending on so many other factors, yet not to discount Christ's command to witness to the world and baptize.

I am not keen on many Protestant doctrines. I can speak more authoritatively on Catholic doctrine. In the Council of Trent (16th century) and a few popes made declarations to the effect of “there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.” To me, and to many theologians and church authorities, that does not mean those who are not Catholic cannot be saved. It implies some special passage that the soul is judged through the tenets, teachings, justice and mercy the Catholic Church espouses – as this Church maintains it was established by Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit. That declaration is not much different than the one in Scripture that says “No one can come to the Father except through Jesus Christ.” Jesus is the judge of all souls. So just because some poor Hindu or Muslim woman never knew of Jesus, much less honored him, does not mean Jesus Himself will not judge that soul worthy of the kingdom.

So to abridge this post as much as possible: The Catholic Church does maintain it is the deposit of faith and its teachings, not its clergy or faithful, is the bearer of truth. Other creeds and beliefs contain some truth and goodness, but Jesus set up an authority to make right judgments in his absence, beginning with Peter as the first pope. God had no choice but to use sinners as his witnesses. The Church does not say any man deserves hell, that is left for God alone, but it clearly and most definitely teaches the truth about the doctrine of purgatory. That is where many, if not most souls, go before they can be allowed into heaven. That is where God's justice and mercy are most perfected. Forget any protestant protest over this, they are defenseless imo. They will throw this verse or that verse at you as though that is the be all and end all of the Lord’s word or teachings and ignore many other troublesome portions. It is an endless exasperation. I, myself, could produce 25 passsages from Scripture that would confound them and point directly to a purification after death.

The point is, we all can be saved no matter where we came from or what we have done. But utterly so few will go directly to heaven when they die. Purgatory makes us pure and holy and all who go to purgatory will eventually be allowed into heaven. I dare not say who ends up in hell, but I caution anyone taking that chance.


Bible passages that speak to those who never knew of Jesus Christ the Savior:

Acts 10:34-35
Opening his mouth, Peter said:"I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.”

Romans 2:14-15
“For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law,are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them”

John 9:39-41
"I came into this world," said Jesus, "to judge men, that those who do not see may see,and that those who do see may become blind." These words were heard by those of the Pharisees who were present, and they asked Him, "Are *we* also blind?" "If you were blind," answered Jesus, "you would have no sin; but as a matter of fact you boast that you see. So your sin remains!"


Fromthe Vatican II council 1963, restated in the Cathechism of the Catholic Church:

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

 

[Shuttlecraft]

Topc title: Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

People are too quick to blame God. Satan can be a bit of a rotter-

Jesus said- "Satan has bound this crippled woman for eighteen years" (Luke 13:16), then he cured her.

Jesus said:-"Satan was a murderer from the beginning" (John 8:44)

 

[JM2C]

People are too quick to blame God. Satan can be a bit of a rotter-

Jesus said- "Satan has bound this crippled woman for eighteen years" (Luke 13:16), then he cured her.

Jesus said:-"Satan was a murderer from the beginning" (John 8:44)

Amen and may God bless you always

 

[JM2C]

I am not keen on many Protestant doctrines.

I can speak more authoritatively on Catholic doctrine. In the Council of Trent (16th century) and a few popes made declarations to the effect of

“there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.”

Why do you pray to Mary and to statues made of woods, stones, silver and gold?

Isa 44:9 All who make idols are nothing,
and the things they treasure are worthless.
Those who would speak up for them are blind;
they are ignorant, to their own shame.

 

[JM2C]

God had no choice but to use sinners as his witnesses. The Church does not say any man deserves hell, that is left for God alone, but it clearly and most definitely teaches the truth about the doctrine of purgatory.

That is where many, if not most souls, go before they can be allowed into heaven.

That is where God's justice and mercy are most perfected.

Forget any protestant protest over this, they are defenseless imo. They will throw this verse or that verse at you as though that is the be all and end all of the Lord’s word or teachings and ignore many other troublesome portions. It is an endless exasperation. I, myself, could produce 25 passsages from Scripture that would confound them and point directly to a purification after death.

The point is, we all can be saved no matter where we came from or what we have done. But utterly so few will go directly to heaven when they die. Purgatory makes us pure and holy and all who go to purgatory will eventually be allowed into heaven. I dare not say who ends up in hell, but I caution anyone taking that chance.

The Lord Jesus Christ’s sacrifice is not sufficient enough so, you guys invented the purgatory.

That is blasphemy.

God showed His justice and mercy on the crucified Christ, His death, burial, and resurrection and not on some invention like the “purgatory”

Purgatory is nothing but an excuse to pray for the dead. The living praying for the dead they thought were in purgatory so they could go to heaven, unbiblical. Show me your 25 verses.

Heb 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
Heb 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

 

[CG Didymus]

People are too quick to blame God. Satan can be a bit of a rotter-

Jesus said- "Satan has bound this crippled woman for eighteen years" (Luke 13:16), then he cured her.

Jesus said:-"Satan was a murderer from the beginning" (John 8:44)

Why does he have the power to do that? If he was evil from the start, who made him that way? Unless God wanted him to remain that way, God could have destroyed him or changed him. If he is only doing what God wants him to do, or that God allows him to do, why blame him? If the thug comes over to break your legs with a bat, isn't it the person who sent him the one who is really behind the deed?

Like in story of Job, which I hope is metaphorical, God let The Satan "test" Job. Jews have told me, the adversary works for God and must get permission from him. Christianity then transforms this adversary, that is only mentioned a few times in Jewish Scripture, into the total and complete evil being and enemy of God that he is in Christianity.

Either way God wants him and needs him to be the "thug" to do the dirty work. God also wants him to be "the deceiver", someone who is smart enough and wise enough to trick us into creating, supposedly, false religions. Which many of us fall for and believe we are following the true religion of the true God. And, if that is what is really the case, it is God that lets this happen. He even lets his own word seem to have contradictions and so much ambiguity that pretty much people can make up whatever they want and still be able to claim it is based on the Bible.

Even the character of satan has a lot of mystery and conjecture as to who he is and if he really exists. Of course to most Christian, he is real and necessary and is all evil. But that's only one interpretation, and if true, doesn't it make God to be the one, ultimately, behind it all? So how can you blame the messenger, even if that messenger is evil?

 

[Nakosis]

I'm just glad I can accept my morality for what it is and not have to justify it according to some religious ideology.

God says this or that is evil. I think it is only men who makes claims of evil. Whatever doesn't fit their personal morality they'll figure out someway to justify it according to their religion regardless of the need to use logic.

 

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THAU said in 4503 : “So to abridge this post as much as possible: The Catholic Church does maintain it is the deposit of faith and its teachings, not its clergy or faithful, is the bearer of truth. Other creeds and beliefs contain some truth and goodness, but Jesus set up an authority to make right judgments in his absence, beginning with Peter as the first pope. God had no choice but to use sinners as his witnesses. The Church does not say any man deserves hell, that is left for God alone, but it clearly and most definitely teaches the truth about the doctrine of purgatory. That is where many, if not most souls, go before they can be allowed into heaven. That is where God's justice and mercy are most perfected…

The point is, we all can be saved no matter where we came from or what we have done. But utterly so few will go directly to heaven when they die. Purgatory makes us pure and holy and all who go to purgatory will eventually be allowed into heaven. I dare not say who ends up in hell, but I caution anyone taking that chance. “


JM2C replied in 4507 : The Lord Jesus Christ’s sacrifice is not sufficient enough so, you guys invented the purgatory. That is blasphemy. God showed His justice and mercy on the crucified Christ, His death, burial, and resurrection and not on some invention like the “purgatory” Purgatory is nothing but an excuse to pray for the dead. The living praying for the dead they thought were in purgatory so they could go to heaven, unbiblical. Show me your 25 verses.

Heb 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
Heb 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.


I have to vote with the Catholics on this specific, historical base doctrine. I wish that the protestants had taken more of such doctrines with them when they split from the Roman-based Christian movement that had become the Roman Catholic Church.

Though the descriptions differ somewhat from the later Roman Movements version of “purgatory”, the concept of there being a “world of spirits” after this life into which all go is authentic, early Christian tradition and it solves many of the theological dilemmas created by injustice and lack of opportunity we see inside mortality. The early Christian decensus literature describes in great detail the concept of a spirit world after death and what happens there.



REGARDING THE CONCEPT OF A PLACE WHERE SPIRITS OF MANKIND ABIDE AFTER DEATH AND WHILE AWAITING RESURRECTION AND JUDGEMENT


VARIOUS TEXTS REFER TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD BY DIFFERENT NAMES
Some confusion is caused by translation since, in describing the “intermediate” world between mortality and Final Judgment Both writers and translators of various early texts use many words somewhat arbitrarily in their translations, to refer to this place such as SHEOL - HADES - SPIRIT WORLD, PARADISE, PURGATORY, etc. (…sometimes "HELL" is used). The TERM “Purgatory” may be a later term, but the doctrine itself existed among the earliest Judao-christians.

Because translators use so many different terms for the same place, Occassionally, it is only the context that saves us from confusion.


Perhaps I can apply this point to my example in post 4502 regarding the ancient usage of the word “paradise”
For example the early Judeo-Christian textual description that “paradise is in between the corruptible and the incorruptible.” ( 2 Enoch 8:5) indicates the ancient meaning for Paradise which moderns often forget.

This ancient usage of the word “Paradise” changes the meaning of Jesus promise to Dymas (the thief crucified beside Jesus) that “today shalt thou be with me in paradise” (lk 23:43). It was not “heaven” Dymas was promised, but it was “paradise”, the place between corruptible mortality and incorruptible heaven. The greek term "παραδιζο" referred to the place of gardens just outside of the castle of the king.

Of mortals it was said, “ Either he will be in this world or in the resurrection or in the places in the middle.” (The gospel of Phillip)



ALL WHO LIVE AND DIE GO TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD WHILE AWAITING RESURRECTION AND JUDGMENT

In the earliest version of this doctrine, All who leave mortality through death enter the place in the middle, i.e. Sheol, hades, spirit world, paradise, etc.

The “complainer” Ezra complains regarding the end of his life : “Bewail me, all holy and just ones, because I have entered the bowl of Hades.” (Apoc of Ezra7:1) The glorified Jesus reminds Ezra that he had been there as well : “Hear, Ezra, my beloved one. I, being immortal, received a cross, I tasted vinegar and gall, I was set down in a grave. And I raised up my elect ones and I summoned up Adam from Hades (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4). But more on this later.

In this ancient theology, all souls, including the Patriarchs, upon dying, have their spirits placed into this spirit world. Quote: “do you not know that all those who (spring) from Adam and Eve die? And not one of the prophets escaped death and not one of those who reign has been immortal. Not one of the forefathers has escaped the mystery of death. All have died, all have departed into Hades, all have been gathered by the sickle of Death.” (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 8:9; 7)

“ And Death said, “Hear, righteous Abraham, for seven ages I ravage the world and I lead everyone down into Hades – kings and rulers, rich and poor, slaves and free I send into the depth of Hades (T of Abr (rec A) 19:7) .

“For Death deceived Abraham. And he kissed his hand and immediately his soul cleaved to the hand of Death....13...the undefiled voice of the God and Father came speaking thus : “Take, then my friend Abraham into Paradise, where there are the tents of my righteous ones and (where) the mansions of my old ones, Isaac and jacob, are in his bosom... (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 20:9,13-15)

None of these references refer to the "Hell" that individuals may be sent to after the Judgment, but Hades was also a name for this "spirit world"; the "place in the middle". Another point of confusion regarding Hades is that the experience there is NOT the same for all individuals since individuals are divided according to their degree of righteousness. Thus the ancient texts describe it differently according to who is sent there (i.e the righteous vs the unrighteous).

I think that the catholic version of this early doctrine took on a bit different character partly because in some contexts, this spirit world was a sort of bondage; a[FONT=&quot] "prison" of sorts.


THIS SPIRIT WORLD WAS DIVIDED INTO DIFFERENT CLASSES

For example, In describing Sheol, Enoch is shown that it has separate “areas” for individuals to be “assigned to”. In his vision, Enoch asks the angel :
.”For what reason is one separated from the other? And he replied and said unto me, “These three have been made in order that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And in the manner in which the souls of the righteous are separated (by) this spring of water with light upon it, in like manner the sinners are set apart when they die and are buried in the earth and judgment has not been executed upon them in their lifetime,... until the great day of judgment...They will bind them there forever–even from the beginning of the world. ....Such has been made for the souls of the people who are not righteous, but sinners and perfect criminals; they shall be together with (other) criminals who are like them. (1Enoch 22:9-13)


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DIFFERENT AREAS WITHIN THIS WORLD OF SPIRITS BASED ON PRELIMINARY MORAL CHARACTERISTICS (continued)

Since the righteous are with the righteous, they seem to adapt to a calm existence, the unrighteous, being grouped with others of their type and having increased awareness of the result of their moral choices become unhappy in their regrets and distress. And, Sheol itself also had a “middle place” according to this ancient model.

In Abraham’s description of Hades, he asks the angel : “Is one who is unable to enter through the strait gate unable to enter into life?...4 And Michael answered...you will enter through it unhindered, as will all those who are like you.”...8And when they went, they found an angel holding in his hand one soul of a woman from among the six myriads, because he found (her) sins evenly balanced with all her works, and they were neither in distress nor at rest, but in an intermediate place.. ( TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension B) 9:1-10)



SPIRITS ARE COGNIZANT AND CONTINUE TO BE ABLE TO MAKE MORAL CHOICES AND EXPRESS FREE WILL
In this early doctrine, Hades was not simply a place where souls “sleep”, but they are cognizant and communicate and still have free will. Those spirits who had no idea nor concept of God’s plan for them are still allowed to learn and make moral choices just as those who had the gospel given to them while in mortality. They may make the same moral progress as any other individuals. For example : Enoch, describes his vision of Hades/Sheol, teaching that there are those there who teach moral law :

“Come and I will show you where the souls of the wicked stand, and where the souls of the intermediate stand;... He said to me: The souls of the wicked are brought down to sheol....Samki’el is in charge of the souls of the intermediate, to support them and purify them from sin, through the abundant mercies of the Omnipresent One. “ (3en 44:1-3)

It is not merely Samki’el who teaches, but the spirit of men communicate and teach one another as I’ll point out later in the discussion of Christian texts of Christ’s descension into Sheol (hades, hell, paradise, etc, etc). However, the early Christian Saints also understood, that the spirits of individuals in Sheol (hades, paradise, etc) still possessed intelligent free will and could also accept the blessings of the Gospel as far as they were able. Being “bodiless”, these individuals could NOT be baptized, though they could make the change of heart associated with faith, humility, repentance, etc. From the testimony of the two sons of Symeon, we know that individual believers in the spirit world WERE teachers of others, just as those with bodies teach and testify of the gospel to others.

Whether moral progress occurs to the spirit before mortality, or during mortality or after mortality, still, changes may occur as long as God allows the individual to chose. The ancient saying in this context of moral change occurring in men is that “God is a dyer. As the good dyes, which are called “true,” dissolve with the things dyed in them, so it is with those whom God has dyed. Since his dyes are immortal, they are immortal by means of his colors. Now God dips what he dips in water." (The gospel of Phillip)

The doctrine of the descensus is foreign to many protestant churches, but anciently, the Judao-Christians spoke of the descent of Christ into “the place in between” (sheol, hades, hell, etc.) after his death The descent of Christ into this spirit world after his death is described in multiple ancient accounts.

One is The Gospel of Bartholomew. In this account, the Apostle Bartholomew asks the risen Jesus : “Lord, when you went to be hanged on the cross, I followed you at a distance and saw how you were hanged on the cross and how the angels descended from heaven and worshiped you. And when darkness came, I looked and saw that you had vanished from the cross; only I heard your voice in the underworld,.....Tell me, Lord, where you went from the cross.”

In this christian account, Jesus summarizes his descent into Hades saying : Quote:
"I went to the underworld to bring up Adam and all the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.... When I descended with my angels to the underworld ,in order to dash in pieces the iron bars and shatter the portals of the underworld”... “ I shattered the iron bars....And I brought out all the patriarchs and came again to the cross.... “I was hanged upon the cross for your sake and for the sake of your children.” (The Gospel of Bartholomew chapt one)

The early Christian Gospel of Nicodemus, text contains multiple testimonies of the living Jesus after his resurrection AND descriptions of Jesus actions in Hades when he visited the “spirits imprisoned” there. Joseph (of Arimathea) observes to those discussing Jesus resurrection :

“Why then do you marvel at the resurrection of Jesus? It is not this that is marvelous, but rather that he was not raised alone, but raised up many other dead men who appeared to many in Jerusalem. And if you do not know the others, yet Symeon, who took Jesus in his arms, [Luke 2:34] and his two sons, whom he raised up, you do know. For we buried them a little while ago. And now their sepulchers are to be seen opened and empty, but they themselves are alive and dwelling in Arimathaea”...Joseph said: “Let us go to Arimathaea and find them.” Then arose the chief priests Annas and Caiaphas, and Joseph and Nicodemus and Gamaliel and others with them, and went to Arimathaea and found the men of whom Joseph spoke.” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch one)

These men then speak with the resurrected sons of Symeon (who were NOT Christians and were NOT baptized while they were alive). These two had died, and gone to the world of Spirits, converted to Christianity while in the spirit world, and had then been resurrected with many others at the resurrection of Christ and who were walking among and teaching others regarding Jesus. The brothers described what happened in this Spirit world (sheol, hades, etc).



POST THREE OF FOUR FOLLOWS

 

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POST THREE OF FOUR

“We, then were in Hades with all who have died since the beginning of the world. And at the hour of midnight there rose upon the darkness there something like the light of the sun and shone, and light fell upon us all, and we saw one another, and immediately our father, Abraham, along with the patriarchs and the prophets, was filled the joy, and they said to one another: “This shining comes from a great light.” The prophet Isaiah, who was present there, said : “This shining comes from the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. This I prophesied when I was still living: The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim, the people that sit in darkness saw a great light.” Then there came into the midst another, an anchorite from the wilderness. The patriarchs asked him: “Who are you?” He replied: “I am John, the last of the prophets, who made straight the ways of the Son of God, and preached repentance to the people for the forgiveness of sins.....And for this reason he sent me to you, to preach that the only begotten Son of God comes here, in order that whoever believes in him should be saved,....Therefore I say to you all: When you see him, all of you worship him. For now only have you opportunity for repentance because you worshiped idols in the vain world above and sinned. At another time it is impossible” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch two)

I might make the point here that it is not only John the Baptist’s spirit who is teaching the gospel, but the spirits of the other Patriarchs among the spirits of men are teaching the gospel to individuals such as the sons of Rabi Simeon, and many testified of gospel truths to the others in the spirit world.

The story continues : “Now when John was thus teaching those who were in Hades, the first-created, the first father Adam heard, and said to his son Seth: My son, I wish you to tell the forefathers of the race of men and the prophets where I sent you when I fell into mortal sickness.”

GOSPEL PRINCIPLES ARE TAUGHT TO THOSE PRESENT

Seth then teaches the others regarding the "oil of mercy" that Adam requested and that Seth was told “go and tell your father than after the completion of fifty-five hundred years from the creation of the world, the only-begotten son of God shall become man and shall descend below the earth. And he shall anoint him with that oil. And he shall arise and wash him and his descendants with water and the Holy spirit. And then he shall be healed of every disease....When the patriarchs and prophets heard this, they rejoiced greatly.” This same message was NOT merely for Patriarchs and Prophets, but for all souls there who would listen.

[FONT=&quot]In chapter four, Satan adjure Hades to prevent Jesus from coming if it is possible, “For I believe that he comes here to raise all the dead”....” and while Satan and Hades were speaking thus to one another, a loud voice like thunder sounded: “Lift up your gates, O rulers, and be lifted up, O everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in”...David said: “Do you not know, blind one, that when I lived in the world, I prophesied that word: ‘Lift up your gates, O rulers?’” (Ps 23:7). Isaiah said: “I foresaw this by the Holy Spirit and wrote: ‘The dead shall arise, and those who are in the tombs shall be raised up, and those who are under the earth shall rejoice (ps 26:19) O death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory.’” .....the gates of brass were broken in pieces and the bars of iron were crushed and all the dead who were bound were loosed from their chains, and we with them. And the King of glory entered in like a man, and all the dark places of Hades were illumined.”.

The sons of Symeon continue to relate that : Ch VIII ...the King of glory stretched out his right hand, and took hold of our forefather Adam and raised him up. Then he turned also to the rest and said: “Come with me, all you who have suffered death through the tree which this man touched. For behold, I raise you all up again through the tree of the cross. With that he put them all out. “


SONS OF SYMEON BELIEVE, CONVERT AND BECOME WITNESSES OF GOSPEL PRINCIPLES

Importantly, the sons of Symeon testify : "All this we saw and heard, we two brothers who also were sent by Michael the archangel and were appointed to preach the resurrection of the Lord, but first to go to the Jordan and be baptized. There also we went and were baptized with other dead who had risen again. Then we went to Jerusalem also and celebrated the passover of the resurrection. But now we depart, since we cannot remain here. And the love of God the Father and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all [2 Cor. 13;14].” (The Gospel of Nicodemus- Christ’s descent into hell ch XI)

Even Symeons sons were authorized by Michael and sent to teach of the resurrection of Jesus. However FIRST, they were appointed by Michael to “first to go to the Jordan and be baptized.” “There also we went and were baptized with other dead who had risen again.”



EARLY CHRISTIAN TEXTUAL TRADITIONS AND WITNESSES THAT THE CONDITION OF THE DEAD IS NOT STATIC

There are other ancient Christian texts that also describe the ancient Christian faith in relation to their dead in this spirit world. For example, the ancient text from the diary of a Christian woman Perpetua (The Passion of Perpetua and Felicity) is the story of a new convert to Christianity. The specific doctrines that this new convert was taught and believed in are quite poignant AND, descriptive terms.

First, Perpetua relates : “my father, furious at the word ‘Christian,’ threw himself upon me as though to pluck out my eyes but he was satisfied with annoying me;...Then I thanked the Lord for being parted for a few days from my father, and was refreshed by his absence. During those few days we were baptized, and the Holy Spirit bade me make no other petition after the holy water save for bodily endurance. A few days after we were lodged in prison; and I was in great fear, because I had never known such darkness. What a day of horror! Terrible heat, thanks to the crowds! Rough handling by the soldiers! To crown all I was tormented there by anxiety for my baby. (The Passion of Perpetual and Felicity ch three)

Perpetua, who understood the ancient doctrine that all saints were to receive revelation for themselves is asked by her brother to ask God whether they might expect deliverance or ultimately be martyred.

“Then my brother said to me: ‘Lady sister, you are now in great honor, so great indeed that you may well pray for a vision and may well be shown whether suffering or release be in store for you.’ And I who new myself to have speech of the Lord, for whose sake I had gone through so much, gave confident promise in return, saying : ‘Tomorrow I will bring you word.’

Perpetua understands that she may ask God for revelation in a prayer and has every confidence that her prayer will be answered. She then made her request of God, and received a vision that confirmed they would be martyred and “...at once I told my brother, and we understood that we must suffer, and henceforward began to have no hope in this world.”

POST FOUR OF FOUR FOLLOWS
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POST FOUR OF FOUR

Perpetua understood also that she could make specific and limited requests for those who were dead in the same way that she could ask for specific and limited requests for the living. Perpetua had another Brother Dinocrates who had died as a child, untaught and unbaptized and, who, she understood to be in the spirit world with all others who had died. Perpetua relates : “After a few days, while we were all praying, suddenly in the middle of the prayer I spoke, and uttered the name of Dinocrates...And I saw at once that I was entitled, and ought, to make request for him. And I began to pray much for him...At once on this very night this was shown me. I saw Dinocrates coming forth from a dark place, where there were many other dark places...and the wound which he had when he died was in his face still.... “For him then I had prayed; and there was a great gulf between me and him, so that neither of us could approach the other. There was besides in the very place where dinocrates was a font full of water, the rim of which was above the head of the child; and Dinocrates stood on tiptoe to drink. I grieved that the font should have water in it and that nevertheless he could not drink because of the height of the rim. And I woke and recognized that my brother was in trouble. But I trusted that I could relieve his trouble, and I prayed for him every day until we were transferred to the garrison prison, for we were to fight with the beasts at the garrison games on the Caesar Geta’s birthday.

It is obvious that Perpetua could see both that Dinocrates’ ability to access salvific principles was limited, she “saw at once that I (she) was entitled, and ought to make request for him.”. He was thirsty, but could not drink of the living water.

After making a completely appropriate request for Dinocrates to receive the Gospel she relates in Ch VIII that Quote:

“During the daytime, while we stayed in the stocks, this was shown me. I was that same place which I had seen before, and Dinocrates clean in body, well-clothes and refreshed; and where there had been a wound, I saw a scar; and the font which I had seen before had its rim lowered to the child’s waist; and there poured water from it unceasingly; and on the rim a golden bowl full of water. And Dinocrates came forward and began to drink from it, and the bowl failed not. And when he had drunk enough of the water, be came forward being glad to play as children will. And I awoke. Then I knew that he had been released from punishment.”

Dinocrates was given the chance to drink of living water of gospel knowledge to the extent he desired. Though Dinocrates never fully accessed the font of water, he did access the part of this living water he could access by virtue of the golden bowl of water. The story of Dinocrates is lost to history at this point.

However, my point in offering such descriptions is NOT to say the modern and specific Roman Catholic description of “purgatory” is completely correct per se, but to offer support to the specific point that the Catholic doctrine of a world between death and resurrection/judgement itself was believed by the early Judao-Christians, it was orthodox, and that the early christians who believed in such traditions would have interpreted scriptures inside this context of belief.


Frubals to you Thau for this important historical point regarding the world of spirits after death being a place where those who had not had a chance to finish their preparations for initial entry to a heaven could do so. It was through such theological traditions that the early christians understood the rectification of some of the unjustices that occurred within mortality. The later protestant theories that arose but lacked this early theology had much greater difficulties justifying suffering and injustice that occurred during mortality (as this thread has already demonstrated in it's examination of prior protestant theories that lack this theology).


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σεακτωνενεω

 

[Ingledsva]

Why do you pray to Mary and to statues made of woods, stones, silver and gold?

Isa 44:9 All who make idols are nothing,
and the things they treasure are worthless.
Those who would speak up for them are blind;
they are ignorant, to their own shame.

WHY! WHY! WHY! Does this falsehood keep getting repeated?


Catholics DO NOT pray to statues. They are used to focus thought. A prayer to Jesus goes to Jesus. Catholics are not stupid, they know statues are wood, stone, or plastic, and THEY DO NOT PRAY TO THEM!


Erroneous information like this needs to stop.



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[Shuttlecraft]

Originally Posted by Shuttlecraft
People are too quick to blame God. Satan can be a bit of a rotter-
Jesus said- "Satan has bound this crippled woman for eighteen years" (Luke 13:16), then he cured her.
Jesus said:-"Satan was a murderer from the beginning" (John 8:44)

Why does he have the power to do that? If he was evil from the start, who made him that way? Unless God wanted him to remain that way, God could have destroyed him or changed him. If he is only doing what God wants him to do, or that God allows him to do, why blame him? If the thug comes over to break your legs with a bat, isn't it the person who sent him the one who is really behind the deed?

We don't know the exact nature of Satan, he might simply be a huge mass of bad vibes generated by human negative thoughts.
For example every time an atheist blasphemes, it might trigger a birth defect in a womb somewhere.
On a larger scale, all those unholy negative vibes put together could trigger natural disasters, it's not a new idea-
"Whatever the natural cause, sin is the true cause of all earthquakes." - John Wesley (1703 - 1791)

Hence the warning not to radiate bad vibes that Satan can feed off and gain strength from, but to radiate only good vibes-
"whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things" {Philp 4:8)

 

[Ingledsva]

People are too quick to blame God. Satan can be a bit of a rotter-

Jesus said- "Satan has bound this crippled woman for eighteen years" (Luke 13:16), then he cured her.

Jesus said:-"Satan was a murderer from the beginning" (John 8:44)

Only problem is that there is no evil Satan in Tanakh. Satan is the servant of YHVH, the Tester/Accuser. If found wanting, after testing, he stands beside YHVH to Accuse the "tested.

YHVH puts Satan's attention to Lot - to test him.


Job 1:8 And said YHVH to Satan, do put your regard/attention upon my servant Job for there is none like him on the earth, a man pious and upright, fearing Elohiym and turning from wickedness.

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Zec 3:1 And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.

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Psa 109:6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.

Psa 109:7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.

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We even find this idea still mixed into their new Greek Diabolos.


Mat 4:1 Then Jesus was led forth into the wilderness by the Holy Spirit to be tested/proved by the devil.

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Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.



Luke 13:16 And ought not this one moreover, a daughter of Abraam, bound to the discernment/attention of the Accuser (satanas) ten and eight years, not, of a necessity, be loosed from this impediment on this day of the Sabbath?


John is the last written, and obviously not by the Disciple John. This is well known, and even the language, style, and words, are different.


These texts were written long after Jesus' death. There is no proof that any of the people that supposedly wrote them, - actually did.


Satan, in these later writings, has now been fully corrupted by foreign influence, to the Greek idea of Diabolos.




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[Ingledsva]

The Lord Jesus Christ’s sacrifice is not sufficient enough so, you guys invented the purgatory.

That is blasphemy.

God showed His justice and mercy on the crucified Christ, His death, burial, and resurrection and not on some invention like the “purgatory”

Purgatory is nothing but an excuse to pray for the dead. The living praying for the dead they thought were in purgatory so they could go to heaven, unbiblical. Show me your 25 verses.

Heb 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
Heb 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Actually Purgatory comes from the Hebrew idea of Sheol.

Sheol is where all the dead await final Judgment .

The Hebrew prayed for, and to, their passed relatives.

There is the idea, shown in the colloquialism, "Bosom of Abraham," text, that they realize they placed themselves in a particular order there, in Sheol. "Good" folk are at the head table, in the "Bosom of Abraham," and others are far below looking up, and yearning for a drop of water from that table, to stop their burning desire." Christians mistake this for a hell text.


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[Shuttlecraft]

Certainly Satan is a tester and tempter; he wound Adam and Eve round his little finger, hence the warnings-
"Don't give the devil a foothold" (Eph 4:27)
"Resist the devil and he'll flee from you" (James 4:7)
"Put on the full armour of God against the wiles of the devil" (Eph 6:11-18 )

Satan in Gibson's "The Passion", slyly lurking, scheming, watching for a chance to zero in on our human flaws and weaknesses-

 

[Ingledsva]

Certainly Satan is a tester and tempter; he wound Adam and Eve round his little finger, hence the warnings-
"Don't give the devil a foothold" (Eph 4:27)
"Resist the devil and he'll flee from you" (James 4:7)
"Put on the full armour of God against the wiles of the devil" (Eph 6:11-18 )

Satan in Gibson's "The Passion", slyly lurking, scheming, watching for a chance to zero in on our human flaws and weaknesses-

The problem with this is the idea that a JOB, assigned by YHVH, is "slyly lurking, scheming."

According to Tanakh it is his job, no sly needed, no "evil." He is not an autonomous "evil" being.


Eph 6:11-18 Invest in the full armor of God, so you can stand beside/up to the methods (μεθοδεια&#962 of the Diabolos.


EDIT - Forgot to add that it doesn't say Satan in the Adam and Chav'vah story. It says serpent. It may be Satan sent to test them, or it may have a totally different meaning.


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[Shuttlecraft]

..According to Tanakh it is his job, no sly needed, no "evil." He is not an autonomous "evil" being..

Satan doesn't sound much of a pussycat to me..
Jesus said:-"He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies" (John 8:44)

And "wiles" means he's a setter of traps, tricks, snares and booby-traps..
"Put on the full armour of God against the wiles of the devil" (Eph 6:11-18 )