Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

[InformedIgnorance]

It is rather simple really; even if some god did exist, there is no need for such a being to love us, or even be aware of our existence, or for that matter to still exist.

The concept of god as a personal, intervening being is far from the only potential model of such an existence, it could be an impartial, remote entity which is not even aware that it created existence, it could have created the universe for the purpose of learning from us and thus has no intention of intervening, it could be a 'force' (not even a being) distributed throughout all existence, incapable of thought, it could have killed itself to create from it's essence the universe itself. There are a multitude of potential types of god, not all of which are omnibenevolent, not all of which are omniscient, not all of which are omnipotent, not all of which would require that it continue to exist.

The contradiction only arises when we recognize the existence of something (such as suffering) which directly contradicts with the characteristics that we attribute to such an entity (such as having omniscient awareness which incorporates the knowledge of suffering, omnipotence which incorporates the ability to prevent or mitigate that suffering and omni-benevolence which holds that such an entity if aware of the suffering and with the ability to prevent it would do so).

If we refrain from ascribing attributes to a concept such as a proposed 'god' then such conflicts do not arise; a minimalist approach to defining or describing the concept of 'god' avoids such problems yet in doing so it reduces the capacity to claim knowledge of such an entity's nature and intentions, making the practical implications for such an existence difficult to discern and therefore for pragmatic purposes inconsequential.

 

[Monotheist 101]

The concept of god as a personal, intervening being is far from the only potential model of such an existence, it could be an impartial, remote entity which is not even aware that it created existence, it could have created the universe for the purpose of learning from us and thus has no intention of intervening, it could be a 'force' (not even a being) distributed throughout all existence, incapable of thought, it could have killed itself to create from it's essence the universe itself. There are a multitude of potential types of god, not all of which are omnibenevolent, not all of which are omniscient not all of which are omnipotent, not all of which would require that it continue to exist after the creation of the universe.

When somebody creates something for the very first time..they are regarded as the inventor..and the creation the invention...do you think If you were to invent for example a new concept of a car from scratch..you wouldn't have complete knowledge of it every little detail? Would you accidently invent a complex creation, if it was an accident, do you think it would be so perfect or miraculous?
I hold the view that we are created with the sole purpose to worship..why else do we have this engrained need to place faith in something as if it is part of our make up...everyone worships something in reality..the athiest worships himself/ego and this wordly life..every ancient civilization, even those who developed in different times and different isolated places..God is not evil..evil is a part of creation (Satan)

P.S I realize how the analogy I used might be flawed to an extent...Human beings dont actually create in the true sense of the word..we make or assemble from things that are already a part of creation..to make a table I will cut a tree and mould it into shape and hold it together with iron..all which was already created in some form or the other and was already there..I merely put it together..

 

[InformedIgnorance]

I hold the view that we exist; that all else need be proven.

If something is created that implies nothing of that which is responsible for the creation (note that I did not limit that statement to a 'creator'); it does not need imply self-awareness on the part of that which is responsible for creation, continued self-existence, awareness of the created existence, emotional or intellectual attachment to any component of that existence, the continued capacity to interact with any component of that existence and so forth.

When I create a car, there are many things I do not know about it - I cannot fully predict the structure of the car at a sub molecular level for example, I do not know whether that car will be free of manufacturing defect, I do not know what the precise mass of the car (down to the boson) is once it is created unless I have some extraordinarily accurate scales, I do not know who will drive the car, where or for what purpose - whether they will get in accidents or modify the car in some way. I cannot then easily interact with the car in order to make it a motor bike instead once the car has been manufactured, i cannot make the car in such a way that it would not be road legal it will need to conform to the laws of what a car CAN be... there are many such restrictions on the creation and creator of a car.


edit:
The idea of intervening to prevent suffering relies basically on three major components:
-Awareness of the situation
-Motivation to effect the situation
-Capability to effect the situation

The limitation of any of these three characteristics removes the incompatibility of god and suffering; suffering can exist when a god lacks awareness regardless of it's motivation and capability (which come to naught without an awareness of what is occurring); suffering can exist when a god lacks motivation regardless of its awareness and capability (which have no need to be used if there is no motivation to do so); suffering can exist when a god lacks capability regardless of it's awareness and motivation (for it is unable to effect the situation)

 

[1robin]

I didnt want to qoute everything..save space..save the trees that doesnt apply..so Ill save my time ...it was in reply to a few of your posts..

Don't worry about the trees, our president is printing money faster that they can grow so they won't be around long enough to worry about.

Just about to take a nap for a bit...would love to explain my POV, but from your posts It seems like you have an engrained hatred for Islam?

Since I have already pointed out that I do not like Islam I do not think this is much of a revelation. I will however point out that ingrained implies an input that "brain washes" in effect. I started researching Islam without any previous conceptions one way or the other. I did not know what a Muslim was, but after years and years of study I believe it is meets pretty much every condition given to indicate a false religion in the Bible. If I am a consistent Christian I am to hate false religions and prophets am I not. Plus given the fact I have lived in a time period where every day brings news of another Islamic terrorist attack, threat of annihilation, or demonstrations against almost every other culture on earth is it any wonder at what I think. I however argue from fact not my emotions.

(Your biased when you say that Islam is only found in places of poverty...What about your Christian missionaries in Africa?,

That is exactly why I did not say that. I said this: "The fact that in general where it is practiced, ignorance, violence, oppression, and poverty reign supreme". I left the existence of exceptions open. I even gave you Islam’s greatest exception. I am speaking in general here.

please don’t make assumptions without looking into the reality of your faith, not what you want it to be, why is it that according to you Islam is found in places of poverty?

I was not saying for a fact that Islam is causal though there are many reasons to think it is. I was saying the obvious fact that where Islam runs freeist oppression and poverty do as well. It was a question specifically worded to give you an opportunity to explain it by other factors. I could show it causal but the fact the faith and violence and oppression so often exist together is all I claim here. I always wonder what a Muslim thinks when he sees this, as well as the fact that Israel outnumbered by Islamic armies 10 or 20 to one has won every war in a lopsided fashion that demands explanation. It was a question not a point of fact though I believe it to be one.

who do you think is truly in need of God and going to open his Heart to God more..places of poverty or places where people are content with material possessions driven solely by their egos?) I believe that I would not do myself any justice if I were to ask you to explain your insight on christianity, while holding on to these emotions( honestly I don’t hate anyone. if the Quran asked me to hate anyone.I would chuck it in the bin, I am not Muslim because I was born into it.)..It would be as if I was asking you to explain while already have made up my mind..which in reality would mean..Im wasting my time and yours and am on this forum just to stroke my ego..

The Quran is adopted by the turbulent and oppressive middle east for geographical reasons that started in Biblical prophecies about Ishmael. God said this:
New Living Translation (©2007)
This son of yours will be a wild man, as untamed as a wild donkey! He will raise his fist against everyone, and everyone will be against him. Yes, he will live in open hostility against all his relatives."
http://bible.cc/genesis/16-12.htm
Is it even possible to give a more accurate prediction?
As for why Islam is what it is: I believe and history confirms that much of it is teh result of corrupted Biblical doctrine held by gnostic and heretical Hebrew groups in teh area and a few nominal Christians that imperfectly understood the Bible, pre Arabian pagan myths (every core tradition in Islam existed in previous Pagan groups in Arabia), and heretical teachings of groups banned from Israel who went to Arabia shortly before Muhammad arrived. These were combined with simple historical facts that were spun in a way to meet a purpose. etc...

I am willing to have the debate you presented..but on the condition that you put your hatred for Muhammad..Islam..the Quran on one side..so that your emotions dont cloud your judgement..

I believe Islam is a false religion and condemned by the Bible (there by making claims of curruption necessary) but I argue from the best facts available. That is all I can offer and all that could be expected.

You went far enough to call Muhammad an evil man(I love Jesus as much as I love Muhammad) based on what?

It is easy to love a man who never harmed a single thing and died for me. It is much harder to love a man that fought 68 battles, corrupted my religion IMO, personally killed men and women (I believe), ordered raids on caravans, had symptoms that match the exact description of a demonic possession in the Bible and who's first inclination was that he was possessed, had the spiritual blindness to 500 years later contradict the testimony of all contemporary witnesses and Jesus himself, and who's teachings at the very least are so easy to misunderstand that they have led to the terror killings of millions. BTW I would also classify the crusades (or at least many of the crusaders actions) as evil and Saladin as the more honorable of that period with the exception of Richard the Lionheart. I am honest about history even when it concern Christians or thugs claiming to be such. Continued below:

 

[1robin]

The Quran? The Quran is the only authentic source of Islam..I do not agree with many of the Hadith..I take good from something based on my logic not based on the source..The Quran is not evil..thus Mohammads revelation was not evil...If I saw evil in the Quran..trust me I would be the first to turn around and run..It agrees with my view completely...I have reached this conclusion after I went through an Agnostic phase..but the need to search for the truth/God( there is no higher purpose in my eyes) led me to pick up several world religions and make my own personal decision ( I had no emotional attachment/baggage/hatred/dislike for any of those when I looked into them..If I did the reality would be that I was not looking for truth..but rather looking for anything that will confirm my preformed opinions..and that to me is being dishonest with myself).

I have no reason to doubt your sincerity, I simply disagree with the conclusion.

I can type pages and pages of my understanding thus far of the occult (It is difficult to gain insight, without actually practicing it, which like you I believe is evil)..I have gathered information from any source the agrees with my experiences and logic..to me it is a puzzle that fits together quite well, My obsession with theosophy, the occult, spirituality led me to Islam.

Theosophy is more of a classification of a knowledge type than a spiritual power or event but maybe I misunderstood the context you mentioned it in.

The difference between you and I is..I havent gone to Christian scholars and based my opinion on their perception of Christianity..like you have based yours on Muslims apologists perception of Islam..have you tried reading the Quran yourself? from an unbiased point of view? I see no evil in it honestly,

Let's say for a second there is no evil in it, why in the world would Allah make a message so easily misunderstood in so many ways and by so many people into justification for hundreds of years of atrocity. Just compare Muhammad with Christ. The Muslim must explain away hundreds of events in Muhammad’s life in order to believe he was a peaceful man. There is not a single thing I need to explain away to claim Christ was. Without deciding if one is false it is obvious which one is most often used to justify violence and it is easy to see why. BTW I have started to read the Quran many times and starting in many places. I find it so disjointed and arranged for memorization not comprehension that I have always given it up after a few weeks. I however have probably read commentaries, heard debates, or read research on 95% of its text.

I see refrences to evil..provided I stay unbiased and dont take things out of context...Someone elses understanding of God or religion is not what I base my faith on..I base it on my first hand knowledge knowing that I gave everyone a fair chance..I dont care about what people think Islam is..or the worlds perception of it..or even Islamic scholars perception of it..I care whether the Quran is the word of God..if it is which in my mind there is no doubt..then I feel no need to take insight from Human beings perception of God/religion or stories of Men (hadith and NT)..not that I will refuse good if it agrees with my logic...

Even if they are not evil why in the world have so many lop of their heads, kill the unbelievers, lie in wait verses? There are few and no general allowances for war in the OT. There are no verses allowing violence of any kind in the NT. Why is teh Quran saturated from start to finish with verses about violence even if they were from God?

I hate no one..The Quran teaches me to control my ego..that is most important for me..more than winning a debate online..If you agree to my terms and wish to have an open minded discussion without referring to any muslim apoligists opinions..honestly I dont care..what I care about is my perception..Then I wouldnt mind debating with you..I would quite enjoy it actually here or a new thread either is cool with me..after I get my sleep tho..

If that is what you get out of the Quran, I do not see how, but there is nothing objectionable about your interpretations but I do not necessarily agree with them.

Peace and God Bless

P.S The Islam that the Quran teaches is the purest form of Monotheism IMO found in any faith..and that is what Im after. Not whether Muslim countries are poor or dirty....

Now wait a minute here. Let’s say there was religion X and that it claimed to be from the only God and it contained claims about how to live and promised that if followed that God would fight with and bless his followers and yet everywhere that religion is most in control it produced misery, oppression, poverty, and violence in general. In what way are those facts not applicable to a debate about that religions claims? Second the purest form in this case would mean the most minimalistic only. IMO the Bibles trinity concept is the sophistication and mystery I would expect from an infinite mind. Simplest maybe but not necessarily the purest and definitely not the most sophisticated and profound.

You seem to desire a declaration about conditions I will adhere to:
1. I do not agree to not dislike Islam but I do agree that it is not what drives my claims nor justifies them. My claims are reliable history, theology, or philosophy or they will be withdrawn or modified to be such. To suspend my personal judgment is to betray my faith but my faith did not produce that judgment.
2. I agree that Hadith’s are not absolute revelation though parts seem to be to certain folks and those parts change based on which person is speaking but for our discussion they are not determinative unless historically verifiable in some way.
3. I claim that what Islam and Christianity produce (poverty or charity) is important but I agree to use other methods of debate than that type of claim.
4. I will mention what an apologist says if relevant but I agree that is not binding on you.

If that is sufficient you may begin as you wish or if you need additional clarification then just ask.

BTW I reserve the right to ask you about your spiritual event claims if something pops up I want to know about. I am fascinated by spiritual experience of all kinds. Also you are the only human being I am aware of that spells as bad as I do. When I attempt a spellcheck our posts light up like a Christmas tree. Selah,

 

[Monotheist 101]

Israel outnumbered by Islamic armies 10 or 20

You have learned nothing from our recent history and world wars/cold war...America is a superpower because it is the most advanced nation in every sense of the word (militarily )..Have you realistically looked into Jewish interests/ownership of big business in the US?

My point being a war between other countries is determined more or less by what side the US is on..It is quite clear when it comes to the Israelis(Thanks to American Jewish Brothers) which side the US has chosen..

I am a realist and see it how it is..

 

[Monotheist 101]

kill the unbelievers, lie in wait verses?

You have to take those verses in context...the Quran always argues that judgement shall be left to Allah...The context of revelation of certain verses causes mass confusion the ones that refer to killing the unbelievers are actually referring to the permssion of God to fight back against the Quraysh (Mohammads Family) who had chased him out of Makkah and werent happy that the people of Madina a neighboring city had accepted his message and honorably welcomed him..they waged war on Mohammad and were closing in on Madina and those verses were revealed giving Gods permission to fight..Mohammad did not use arms before that and they were truly being oppressed...chased and followed like trolling on this forum...The lack of knowledge that the common folk have about the tru word of God is what causes these brainwashed so called muslims to blow themselves up..their lack of understanding of arabic has been used against them...A person who commits suicide is condemned to Hell in the Quran..these confusions have has been used by extremist Muslim to brainwash honest people who were willing to put faith in God but not really because they put faith in a Man

 

[Monotheist 101]

Now wait a minute here. Let’s say there was religion X and that it claimed to be from the only God and it contained claims about how to live and promised that if followed that God would fight with and bless his followers and yet everywhere that religion is most in control it produced misery, oppression, poverty, and violence in general. In what way are those facts not applicable to a debate about that religions claims? Second the purest form in this case would mean the most minimalistic only. IMO the Bibles trinity concept is the sophistication and mystery I would expect from an infinite mind. Simplest maybe but not necessarily the purest and definitely not the most sophisticated and profound.

Simple so that everyone can understand it fully..and no one has an excuse on the day when everyone will be questioned about the ultimate truth..which is God is One...

You seriously have to let the hatred go..if you are a true follower of Jesus..Jesus asked you to love your neighbor(I take it that mean love your brother even more obviously)..we are brothers both from Abrahams seed...

Abrahams Covenant in Genesis
15 And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Both Ismael and Isaacs seeds will be made into great nations...you say that Ismael was evil or an *** in the Bible...but realisically I see that the account contradicts itself...why would God say that he is an *** (corruption made by humans) while also stating a great nation will be made of him?

12 And God said unto Abraham: 'Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah saith unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall seed be called to thee.

13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.'

the word of God cannot contradict itself..an *** and a fool should not have been likely candidates for a nation...the Quranic account of Abraham seems more believable..do you think Muhammad had enough tools at his disposal to trace back his roots thousands of years to Ismael? The Quran mentions both brothers in a favourable light...although in it Ismael is the sacrificial son...just based on authenticity..unchanged form..and positive outlook on both the Sons of Abraham I take the Quranic version to make more sense..

 

[Monotheist 101]

You seem to desire a declaration about conditions I will adhere to:
1. I do not agree to not dislike Islam but I do agree that it is not what drives my claims nor justifies them. My claims are reliable history, theology, or philosophy or they will be withdrawn or modified to be such. To suspend my personal judgment is to betray my faith but my faith did not produce that judgment.
2. I agree that Hadith’s are not absolute revelation though parts seem to be to certain folks and those parts change based on which person is speaking but for our discussion they are not determinative unless historically verifiable in some way.
3. I claim that what Islam and Christianity produce (poverty or charity) is important but I agree to use other methods of debate than that type of claim.
4. I will mention what an apologist says if relevant but I agree that is not binding on you.

If that is sufficient you may begin as you wish or if you need additional clarification then just ask.

BTW I reserve the right to ask you about your spiritual event claims if something pops up I want to know about. I am fascinated by spiritual experience of all kinds. Also you are the only human being I am aware of that spells as bad as I do. When I attempt a spellcheck our posts light up like a Christmas tree. Selah,

Challenge accepted bro..Got a few assignments due for Uni soon..but can promise to check up once a day Do you want to post a topic in the relevant section so we can discuss ALL the relevant issues..including the spiritual part?...I enjoy it alot when I find someone who is willing to listen..and not judge..

God Bless you Bro
P.S You cannot claim your hatred will not be a factor...ofcourse it will..you know what I say...F hatred..it brings no Good...dont hate anyone..even if its a bad person let God be the Judge..

 

[1robin]

You have learned nothing from our recent history and world wars/cold war...America is a superpower because it is the most advanced nation in every sense of the word (militarily )..Have you realistically looked into Jewish interests/ownership of big business in the US?

First let me say that I was an amateur military historian long before I was a Christian. I have researched the Arab v/s Israeli conflicts since 1948 in detail. I can debate the who was justified and who was the aggressor, in detail but in this context there it is irrelevant. MY point was no matter who started what the Arabs outnumbered the Israelis many time over. The Quran indicates Allah will fight with the Muslim's. Yet they lost, time and time again in some of the most lopsided wars in history when they outnumbered the Jewish soldier ten or twenty times over. Who started it is irrelevant but I can debate that if you wish. BY the way the Us did not even help at all in the early wars and only sent bullets and food in middle wars and Russia was supplying the other Arab side so who's side we were on is not relevant either. Russia actually sent thousands of tanks and commanders to lead them, we didn't.

My point being a war between other countries is determined more or less by what side the US is on..It is quite clear when it comes to the Israelis(Thanks to American Jewish Brothers) which side the US has chosen..

At best this is only even applicable in the later wars and still does not explain why the Arabs lost. We were indifferent to Israel for many years and Britain actually sent Egypt planes and supplies and the French helped the Arabs. What we did has no bearing in early wars, very little in middle wars, and a debatable amount in recent wars on who won. By every meaningful statistic or precedent the Arabs should have easily walked over the Jews many times. There are only a few options.
1. Allah does not exist and never promised to fight with anyone.
2. He does exist but all these Arab nations were not real Muslim's and not fighting for him so he did not help. (probably the best explanation for a Muslim)
3. Allah did help but Yahweh is stronger.
4. Allah is the only God but is so inept a fighter a nation that in 1948 a nation that had a grand total of three obsolete tanks crushed the relatively very well equipped armies of five Arab nations within a few hours of becoming a nation and with no official army yet created.

I am a realist and see it how it is..

I think you missed the entire context. I was asking why did not Allah give them victory in at least 5 wars and countless battles against a numerically weak Israel. I was not talking about by who or why these wars were began. I however can discuss that instead if desired. It is one of the easier cases to make especially in the early big wars.

 

[1robin]

You have to take those verses in context...the Quran always argues that judgement shall be left to Allah...The context of revelation of certain verses causes mass confusion the ones that refer to killing the unbelievers are actually referring to the permssion of God to fight back against the Quraysh (Mohammads Family) who had chased him out of Makkah and werent happy that the people of Madina a neighboring city had accepted his message and honorably welcomed him..they waged war on Mohammad and were closing in on Madina and those verses were revealed giving Gods permission to fight..Mohammad did not use arms before that and they were truly being oppressed...chased and followed like trolling on this forum...The lack of knowledge that the common folk have about the tru word of God is what causes these brainwashed so called muslims to blow themselves up..their lack of understanding of arabic has been used against them...A person who commits suicide is condemned to Hell in the Quran..these confusions have has been used by extremist Muslim to brainwash honest people who were willing to put faith in God but not really because they put faith in a Man

Of course you must consider context. I do not think that helps but again that was not the point. I was asking why Allah left it so unclear that hundreds of thousands of sincere Muslim's used these verses to justify murder. I can find no justification possible within any context and in no NT verses for terror or murder of any kind. Yahweh made it clear. The OT has not even applied for more than 2000 years and issued no general allowance for war outside the Hebrews of Israel of any kind against anyone. It only gave finite commands for specific attacks that can never be used to commit acts of unjustified war by any nation in any general way. Israel did not defeat it's five neiboors who attacked them in 1948 based on the Bible. They defeated them all for simple survival.

 

[Monotheist 101]

First let me say that I was an amateur military historian long before I was a Christian. I have researched the Arab v/s Israeli conflicts since 1948 in detail. I can debate the who was justified and who was the aggressor, in detail but in this context there it is irrelevant. MY point was no matter who started what the Arabs outnumbered the Israelis many time over. The Quran indicates Allah will fight with the Muslim's. Yet they lost, time and time again in some of the most lopsided wars in history when they outnumbered the Jewish soldier ten or twenty times over. Who started it is irrelevant but I can debate that if you wish. BY the way the Us did not even help at all in the early wars and only sent bullets and food in middle wars and Russia was supplying the other Arab side so who's side we were on is not relevant either. Russia actually sent thousands of tanks and commanders to lead them, we didn't.

You truly believe the US would do something half-arsed especially against its biggest rival Russia?...Btw I didnt address who started it or who is wrong...merely that the US has and continues to back Israel militarily..The Arabs have never been historically good at wars..except for the beginning of Islam...I think in the present day there are no Islamic/Arab countries who could fight and win a war against anyone with a decent military..IMO Iraq was the strongest Arab country in terms of .military before Saddam got hanged for having weapons of Mass production... of Oil..

 

[Monotheist 101]

There are only a few options.
1. Allah does not exist and never promised to fight with anyone.
2. He does exist but all these Arab nations were not real Muslim's and not fighting for him so he did not help. (probably the best explanation for a Muslim)
3. Allah did help but Yahweh is stronger.
4. Allah is the only God but is so inept a fighter a nation that in 1948 a nation that had a grand total of three obsolete tanks crushed the relatively very well equipped armies of five Arab nations within a few hours of becoming a nation and with no official army yet created.

I believe God has a purpose for the Jews..and their occupation of Israel is very important to the end of time battle...solomons temple (buried under dome of the rock) is where their Messiah(Anti-Christ) will come from..the same temple built by the Jinn..

Just saying that Im muslim doesnt make you one..the terrorist believes he is muslim..his action prove he is not..I am not passing judgment on Arabs or Palestinians..rather that 80% of Muslims I have met are muslim not by their actions but because of their culture...they place faith in their ancestors rather than believe in the Oneness of God

 

[Monotheist 101]

Of course you must consider context. I do not think that helps but again that was not the point. I was asking why Allah left it so unclear that hundreds of thousands of sincere Muslim's used these verses to justify murder. I can find no justification possible within any context and in no NT verses for terror or murder of any kind. Yahweh made it clear. The OT has not even applied for more than 2000 years and issued no general allowance for war outside the Hebrews of Israel of any kind against anyone. It only gave finite commands for specific attacks that can never be used to commit acts of unjustified war by any nation in any general way. Israel did not defeat it's five neiboors who attacked them in 1948 based on the Bible. They defeated them all for simple survival.

Do you think God would have said to Muhammad...dont defend yourself..let this message..the perfect message..be extinguished before it starts? Islam would not have survived if Muhammad didnt defend himself...everything in the Quran has a purpose...The Quran is Gods way of communicating to Humanity...that includes Mohammad...thus the instructions of what to do about the approaching enemies are also communicated through the Quran and included as part of the Quran..

 

[1robin]

Simple so that everyone can understand it fully..and no one has an excuse on the day when everyone will be questioned about the ultimate truth..which is God is One...

What part of my statement was this a response to?

You seriously have to let the hatred go..if you are a true follower of Jesus..Jesus asked you to love your neighbor(I take it that mean love your brother even more obviously)..we are brothers both from Abrahams seed...

I am required by God to hate evil, and a false religion is evil in it's worst form. I would let it go if the facts merited my doing so, but they do not. I did not hate Islam and there for determine it is false. I found it false and there for by divine command resent it. I do not argue from resentment but from objective evidence and fact. That is all you have a right to expect and all I offer.

Abrahams Covenant in Genesis
15 And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

These verses are true in even our time for Israel but Allah has met the exact opposite of these verses for the Arabs. BTW way these verses apply only to Abraham’s son conceived within the covenant. Ishmael was conceived by an act of faithlessness and does not fall in these specific verses. The verses that record Ismael's blessing are of a different "left handed" blessing not the original covenant. God being just did not punish Ishmael for Abraham’s sin and even promised to make a nation out of his descendants. This was not a part of the original covenant established with Abraham and he was not to be of the line of prophets by which God would reveal himself (that makes Muhammad a false prophet) and not a part of that nation which God would call his people. That explains the reference to his fathering nations of violent and chaotic people and that is what we have.

Both Ismael and Isaacs seeds will be made into great nations...you say that Ismael was evil or an *** in the Bible...but realistically I see that the account contradicts itself...why would God say that he is an *** (corruption made by humans) while also stating a great nation will be made of him?

Are the criteria for claiming a verse corrupt only that it is inconvenient to your world view? The constant claim by Muslim scholars that the method for deciding what in the Bible is corrupt as being what is inconsistent with Islam is about the worst criteria for any claim of any type I have ever heard. Talk about circular reasoning. I agree that Ishmaels descendants were predicted to be a great nation, a great nation who constantly fights their brothers and others. Great does not mean good in this context and I reject your claims of corruption given with no proof whatever. BTW Muhammad said the Quran was to be judged by the Bible. How would an 8th century Arab know what or if anything in the Bible that he was to judge by was corrupt? It is an incoherent and futile command made by a man so ignorant of Biblical scripture that he did not realize the extent it would backfire on him and the desperate measures needed to remedy that fact.

12 And God said unto Abraham: 'Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah saith unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall seed be called to thee.

Yes, God says don't worry too much about your horrible mistake and Ishmael that was produced from it. God was faithful to bless all of Abrahams sons but not equally, Isaac under the original covenant and Ishmael under a lesser blessing.

13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.'

Yes God is faithful to bless even the seed of Abrahams sin but not in the same way in any respect as Abrahams son of the covenant.

the word of God cannot contradict itself..an *** and a fool should not have been likely candidates for a nation...

Many things God allowed and even did that if it were not for our mistakes he never would have. He allowed divorce and slavery because of our weakness, he appointed a King to Israel even though he did not wish them to have a King. He was constantly doing less than optimal things because he had to deal within our faults and stupidity many times. That is exactly why he allowed Ishmael to be the father of a restless and violent people. It was God’s goodness, not Ishmael’s or Abraham’s that allowed Ishmael to live much less father a great (significant not good) but very troubled culture.

the Quranic account of Abraham seems more believable..do you think Muhammad had enough tools at his disposal to trace back his roots thousands of years to Ismael?

No, nor do I think it is demostratably a fact he is a descendant. I think he probably just made that up and hoped for the best.

The Quran mentions both brothers in a favourable light...although in it Ismael is the sacrificial son...just based on authenticity..unchanged form..and positive outlook on both the Sons of Abraham I take the Quranic version to make more sense..

Of course you do. However you do so in spite of any rational historical method or textual scholarship. You like it and there for adopt it. Me, I go with the strongest of historical methods. Earlier is better, and semi-contemporary is the best. Accounts written thousands of years later by one man defies the earlier accounts of dozens is about the worst possible historical source. The Bible's view also perfectly explains what happened in history ever since that event took place. There is no reason beyond preference to adopt the Quranic view about these events. Why is God allowing these "great" nations that descended from this wild man to attack his own people every few years and loose every single time? The Bible explains reality perfectly, only the most desperate intellectual gymnastics can force history and the Quran to even resemble each other.
Is this the start of our debate or are you simply responding at this time?

 

[Monotheist 101]

It is much harder to love a man that fought 68 battles

He took part in 26 battles..

After Muhammad and his companions, there is no concept in Islam obliging Muslims to wage war for propagation or implementation of Islam, hence now, the only valid reason for war is to end oppression when all other measures have failed..

Jihad in the Quran that applies to me..is referring to the internal Jihad against the ego..People using Jihad as an excuse to fight donot understand that physically fighting does not apply to them rather only the spiritual Jihad against the Nafs (ego)..Only if people stop taking others advice and read it themselves maybe they will opt not to blow themselves up..the Quran mentions:

5.32. It is because of this that We ordained for (all humankind, but particularly for) the Children of Israel: He who kills a soul unless it be (in legal punishment) for murder or for causing disorder and corruption on the earth will be as if he had killed all humankind; and he who saves a life will be as if he had saved the lives of all humankind. Assuredly, there came to them Our Messengers (one after the other) with clear proofs of the truth (so that they might be revived both individually and as a people). Then (in spite of all this), many of them go on committing excesses on the earth

The Quran does not support killing innocent people..The extremist leaders, play with Gods words(misinterpret) and play on Humanbeings emotions...

 

[Monotheist 101]

How would an 8th century Arab know what or if anything in the Bible that he was to judge by was corrupt? It is an incoherent and futile command made by a man so ignorant of Biblical scripture that he did not realize the extent it would backfire on him and the desperate measures needed to remedy that fact.

So you reckon the bible hasnt been edited since the 8th century...I refuse to put faith in something that could so easily be edited..meaning skewed to fit human purposes(Jews claim that only their side of seed is good)..I will try and look for the earliest publication of Genesis..in Hebrew...I want to judge how this covenant isnt supposed to apply to Ishmael...I will get back to you in a few days regarding this..

 

[Monotheist 101]

13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.' Yes God is faithful to bless even the seed of Abrahams sin but not in the same way in any respect as Abrahams son of the covenant.

Why would God punish Ishmael by not blessing him because of Abrahams sins? And in turn make the Muslims into a violent nation?( I think these ideas may have been brought in after the advent of Islam)...
Ezeikel 18:20:
The soul which does sin will be put to death: the son will not be made responsible for the evil-doing of the father, or the father for the evil-doing of the son; the righteousness of the upright will be on himself, and the evil-doing of the evil-doer on himself.

Why punish Ishmaels seed by condemning them to be evil? I refuse to believe that God will ask human beings to hate anyone..

 

[Monotheist 101]

.
Is this the start of our debate or are you simply responding at this time?

Im driving upto sydney in an hour..couldnt get much sleep..dogs elbow dysplasia is acting up..taking him to vet in sydney..

No its not an official start..please create a thread and link me in...cheers

I will probably reply in 24 hours tho..

Have a Good day..

 

[1robin]

Do you think God would have said to Muhammad...dont defend yourself..let this message..the perfect message..be extinguished before it starts? Islam would not have survived if Muhammad didnt defend himself...everything in the Quran has a purpose...The Quran is Gods way of communicating to Humanity...that includes Mohammad...thus the instructions of what to do about the approaching enemies are also communicated through the Quran and included as part of the Quran..

Once again, that is not my point. It is a silly exercise but let's say every command to kill the unbelievers, to lie in wait, and to lop of heads is a defensive command. Why are they stated so ambiguously that large groups of sincere Muslim's "wrongly" think they allow them to blow up their own people, us, Jews, or basically anyone that offends them in any way including their own daughters and cartoonists. Why couldn't Allah have been clear enough to avoid 1500 years of terror and the acquisition of land in his own name? Christianity has had people to appropriate Bible to justify violence, but not near as much. When the crusaders invaded it was because the Islamic Turks were killing pilgrims not because Christ said anything that allowed it. Actually they were not Christians at all but corrupt secular European lord’s, but adopted a Christian banner to justify the land and wealth they wished to steal. I unlike most Muslim’s after 9/11 condemn what the crusaders did, but they did not invade because Christ or the apostles ever made a verse that allowed it even given misused context, verses as violent as the vast numbers in the Quran simply do not exist in any form in the NT, they did so because the pope said they should not a single Biblical author. They claimed God wills it, but could not point to a single scripture in any context in the NT that allowed violence of any kind. That is the difference. The Quran is in large part surah’s about very ambiguous allowances for violence that are so unclear it allows this "mistaken" understanding to exist in vast segments of Islam. Even vast numbers of the "moderate ones" danced in the streets when 3000 innocent people were murdered in the twin towers. Even when Bin Laden (the guy who did it) was killed I did not dance in the street nor saw anyone who did, and that was not Christian retaliation, it was secular retribution and future terror prevention.