Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

[CG Didymus]

1Robin said, "That is his right under divine sovereignty and unlike in your views those same children went to heaven instead of having their Unbelieving parents make them unfit for heaven over their lives." What are the verses you use to support this view that all children that die before the age of accountability go to heaven? Because, like I mentioned before, this still creates the problem with the kid that is one day to old, that kid knows better and gets judged and sent to hell? The others were just as bad weren't they? They lied, cheated, etc, and were born with the taint of a sin nature weren't they?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Those are two options all right but I have already answered your question. If you did not care what I answered why did you ask. Let me add the 5th and far more likely option. Suffering exists as the natural result of our rebellion and while being bad it's self serves a good function by providing a ready reminder of the cost of that rebellion and other uses.

So you're changing your answer to my earlier question to "all suffering is good"? It's fine if you are, but I just want to make sure I know what your position is.

Because God allows freewill. Freewill allows for wrong choices. Wrong choices allow for bad results and a general loss of intent that natural law was given in.

[/quote]
That just pushes the problem back one step: why would God create being who would choose to do something he doesn't want?

Also, it introduces a problem: is there free will in Heaven?

You must first show that suffering is incompatible with God. It is bad but has a function. That function leads to good.

Again: I thought you said you weren't arguing that all suffering is good.

And I think you're operating from a misunderstamding about how this discussion works: you're the one who offered an answer to the question in the OP ("why does God allow suffering?"); it's up to you to defend it.

It's the same question as you have asked 5 different ways.

Because God is a God of justice. Wrongs must have costs. Do you prefer you view where costs have no justification and the whole mess ends in annihilation and nothing really had any actual meaning or purpose?

Why would there have to be wrongs in the first place? There are evil acts that never even occur to us; there are others we can think of but are physically incapable of doing. Our free will is already limited.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

A good God atheists jump through hoops to call evil even though his inclusion is only a net gain. We are all dead either way. Only with my God are wrongs ever righted, justice ever provided, and Heaven ever granted. Your views are still a captive of death after a lifetime of meaningless and purposeless suffering.

Are you arguing that God isn't perfectly good, but only that his good outweighs his evil?

 

[Ingledsva]

As I said, you defend the stories of your God's skitso murder of children.

I see you ignored the 98% of my statements because you have no reply and picked the one you thought you did have one to but had to butcher it to allow a response. On this planet explaining what happened is not a defense of what happened. Though what happened is far more defensible that the other 80% of my claims that concerned your side.

I have discussed this with you several times and your reply is always along the lines of - God has a right to do whatever God wants as God created us.

You Christians try to defend the most outrageous things the Bible says your God did.

When we talked about how the Hebrew killed everyone including the babies - you tried to defend this by saying they would have later become enemies - as if that makes infanticide OK.

When we talk about the real ownership of slaves by the Hebrew - you try to defend it by saying it wasn't real slavery - which is BULL!

You try to defend all the indefensible crap that is in the Bible.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

However, the stories that say out of anger, or for revenge, or just because he wanted to prove something, YHVH killed innocents for the supposed crimes of others - would make that God an evil monster.

We are even told in the First born of Egypt story - that YHVH purposely hardened Pharaoh's heart so he wouldn't let the Hebrew go - then YHVH murders the first born because Pharaoh did not let them go (because YHVH wouldn't let him!)

That was long after pharaoh had thrown away any chance to comply. The influence the faith of the Hebrews born in that crucible proves God was right. It was also to provide retribution for the loss of Israel's sons years earlier. That is his right under divine sovereignty and unlike in your views those same children went to heaven instead of having their Unbelieving parents make them unfit for heaven over their lives. We have dead kids either way. With God they are in heaven and with your view they are annihilated for no reason yet it is that God that you call evil and that annihilating your apparently prefer. It might be said your sides very label should be annihilation because what is not annihilated in moral insanity while live ends up that way anyway eventually.

A good God atheists jump through hoops to call evil even though his inclusion is only a net gain. We are all dead either way. Only with my God are wrongs ever righted, justice ever provided, and Heaven ever granted. Your views are still a captive of death after a lifetime of meaningless and purposeless suffering.

Like I said - you try to defend the indefensible!

The Bible tells us GODWOULDN'T LET THEM GO, - and you add the REVENGE - and it is obviously MURDER of many people that had nothing to do with the Egypt/Hebrew issue -

and yet you defend that abuse, - and revenge murder, - of the innocent!

Meaning your so-called perfect God - isn't - he is a man made deity, and the WORST of HUMAN characteristics displayed in these stories by this "God" - proves this.

I find it quite interesting that you think it is better to murder heathen children, then to let the grow up! And that this is OK.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

I took Comparative Religions, and a separate course from the Catholic Church, and studied archaeology.

I translate the texts myself.

There is as I have pointed out many times - a lot of error - and what would appear to be purposeful changing of wording to support a newer church idea.

Purposeful - such as this below - to promote the idea of homosexuality being wrong -

Deut 23:17 There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.

Which actually says -

Deut 23:17 There shall be no Qadeshah of the daughters of Israel, nor Qadesh of the sons of Israel.

I have hear an argument that should end this debate as well as the one I gave for abortion. That has nothing however to do with whether you will let it end the debate.

Bart Ehrman Phd

1. He is far more educated than both of us put together concerning biblical error.
2. He is probably the most famous current author of book criticizing the Bible.
3. In his words at most there is 5% meaningful scribal error in the Bible (actually he might have been meaning only the NT but either way it works).
4. In his words none of the errors are contained in core doctrine.

I have a transcript from his and DR Whites debate but I will not give you those statements in a vacuum. If you want a link I am going to give you to their debate. I want you to see how much trouble White had to go to back Ehrman in a corner so tight that he had no choice but to admit the above. I have defended supposed Bible errors for years and have found very few and all are well known. All major Bible version record the errors in footnotes and many give the explanations about them. The dead sea scrolls alone were enough to show the Bible's preservation far (and I mean far) out shines every other work in ancient history. That was your sides great chance. A text 1000 years older than the oldest in existence should have been full of errors if they existed. Yet what did it show almost 100% accuracy. Isaiah (the most theological and messianic by far) existed in three copies with about 99.95% accuracy. Too bad huh. So if you want to argue with yoru own sides most prolific modern scholar or textual comparisons you can make at home or with online dead sea scroll sites have at it. Don't throw Ehrman quotes at me. I know very well what he has said depending on what day he is asked, which is why I like debate formats not book selling rallies. You do realize that textual error (which is what I brought up, not historical error) is easily checked? Historical accuracy is just as reliable but quite a bit harder to prove.

1. You can "defend supposed Bible error" all you want. - However, I have shown in many discussions on this site - consistent error in Bible translation. That is a fact.

2. I have seen the Dead Sea Scrolls, and also studied side by side comparisons by "scholars" who say, "look they are the same," ignoring that they actually are not - and that the words, which are actually in another order, often have a totally different meaning when kept where they are supposed to be.

3. I'm throwing Ehrman quotes at you??? What?

*

 

[1robin]

1Robin said, "That is his right under divine sovereignty and unlike in your views those same children went to heaven instead of having their Unbelieving parents make them unfit for heaven over their lives." What are the verses you use to support this view that all children that die before the age of accountability go to heaven? Because, like I mentioned before, this still creates the problem with the kid that is one day to old, that kid knows better and gets judged and sent to hell? The others were just as bad weren't they? They lied, cheated, etc, and were born with the taint of a sin nature weren't they?

It is a composite doctrine from verses like Acts 17, Romans14, Romans 1. Here is a whole paper on it if actually wished to learn about the doctrine. Plus the verse concerning God not allowing anyone over 20 into the promise land. Verses in Deuteronomy about children being legally innocent and qualifying for paradise, etc... THE AGE of ACCOUNTABILITY - A Matter of Truth I have never had much need for the doctrine and so have not spent enough time on it to qualify me to teach anyone else on it. For the purposes of this discussion I do not have to.

I am going to put this into context based on a debate have been having with more than one person to contrast what is or might be true with God and what if not and our role in it.

1. The non-theist has no idea if any line exists nor where it is if it does exist between murder and legal homicide for any abortion. Yet they kill even though they are ignorant of the true situation. The theist is ignorant, admits it, and does not kill. (in general).
2. For a Child whom God killed, he does know everything involved, what line (if any exists), what ALL the data that lead to the decision was, what the outcome will be for the Child, what the outcome will be in general. In situations like the Canaanites, Sodom and Gomorrah, the flood all those children in all likely hood would have been corrupted by the diabolical societies they lived in and gone to Hell in the end. Yet in our wandering around in the darkness pronouncing morally insane judgments our rebellion leaves us at the mercy of, we would prefer that, than for the author and owner of their life placing them in heaven.


So we have a people wholly ignorant but ready to kill for convenience, a life and soul they did not create, then claiming an omniscient God who has all information needed, sovereignty, and capacity to save the soul in question which he DID create is evil even if unknown to the all-wise atheist that Child would have made Hitler look like a teddy bear and the child killed by them in the womb would have cured cancer. You just can't make this stuff up, or shouldn't.

BTW in my view there is only Heaven or non-existence as a possible destination for whom God kills.

 

[Ingledsva]

...

I am going to put this into context based on a debate have been having with more than one person to contrast what is or might be true with God and what if not and our role in it.

1. The non-theist has no idea if any line exists nor where it is if it does exist between murder and legal homicide for any abortion. Yet they kill even though they are ignorant of the true situation. The theist is ignorant, admits it, and does not kill. (in general).
2. For a Child whom God killed, he does know everything involved, what line (if any exists), what ALL the data that lead to the decision was, what the outcome will be for the Child, what the outcome will be in general. In situations like the Canaanites, Sodom and Gomorrah, the flood all those children in all likely hood would have been corrupted by the diabolical societies they lived in and gone to Hell in the end. Yet in our wandering around in the darkness pronouncing morally insane judgments our rebellion leaves us at the mercy of, we would prefer that, than for the author and owner of their life placing them in heaven.

You try to defend texts of murder with invisible man theology - and ridiculous supposition! The idea that all of these murdered children would have ended up evil - and therefore it is OK to murder them - is just plain ridiculous.

So we have a people wholly ignorant but ready to kill for convenience, a life and soul they did not create, then claiming an omniscient God who has all information needed, sovereignty, and capacity to save the soul in question which he DID create is evil even if unknown to the all-wise atheist that Child would have made Hitler look like a teddy bear and the child killed by them in the womb would have cured cancer. You just can't make this stuff up, or shouldn't.

We obviously are not ignorant. Nor do the majority of people having abortions do so for convenience. These are your opinions.

We don't believe in your God - which makes mass killing of children in these Bible stories - just plain murder by people using God as an excuse.

BTW in my view there is only Heaven or non-existence as a possible destination for whom God kills.

With no proof - that is only your belief.

*

 

[kjw47]

You try to defend texts of murder with invisible man theology - and ridiculous supposition! The idea that all of these murdered children would have ended up evil - and therefore it is OK to murder them - is just plain ridiculous.




We obviously are not ignorant. Nor do the majority of people having abortions do so for convenience. These are your opinions.

We don't believe in your God - which makes mass killing of children in these Bible stories - just plain murder by people using God as an excuse.



With no proof - that is only your belief.

*

In reality --Those parents would have handed down false god worship and pagan practices to their children, teaching them to live wicked lives. ( satan has used this tactic since almost the beginning)--- there will be a resurrection into Gods kingdom after Harmageddon. Those children will face an easy judgement since they didn't live those wicked lives--they will be given every opportunity to learn truth and apply, and have the opportunity to gain eternal life in Gods kingdom on earth. So for all we know God may have done them a big favor by not allowing them to a judgement of wickedness.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

In reality --Those parents would have handed down false god worship and pagan practices to their children, teaching them to live wicked lives. ( satan has used this tactic since almost the beginning)--- there will be a resurrection into Gods kingdom after Harmageddon. Those children will face an easy judgement since they didn't live those wicked lives--they will be given every opportunity to learn truth and apply, and have the opportunity to gain eternal life in Gods kingdom on earth. So for all we know God may have done them a big favor by not allowing them to a judgement of wickedness.

People who think like this are the reason I'm a "devil worshiper".

 

[kjw47]

People who think like this are the reason I'm a "devil worshiper".

You must like knowing good and bad then. Satan caused this sick world. I guess too when your family member is dying from cancer thanks to your god--it will please you. The true God(Jehovah) made mortals to live forever at a young age in perfect health, satan got them to rebel by lying to Eve. God only wanted for us is to know good.
This was a direct challenge to God over his universal sovereignty--this issue had to be settled once and for all time in front of all creation. And this sick world proves God was absolutely right--that knowing only good was best for mortals. Its almost done---Gods kingdom is mankinds only remaining hope. Gods son Jesus is the appointed king of that kingdom.

 

[SheikhHorusFromTheSky]

You must like knowing good and bad then. Satan caused this sick world. I guess too when your family member is dying from cancer thanks to your god--it will please you. The true God(Jehovah) made mortals to live forever at a young age in perfect health, satan got them to rebel by lying to Eve. God only wanted for us is to know good.
This was a direct challenge to God over his universal sovereignty--this issue had to be settled once and for all time in front of all creation. And this sick world proves God was absolutely right--that knowing only good was best for mortals. Its almost done---Gods kingdom is mankinds only remaining hope.

Son, if we don't know our evil nature, how do we know our good nature? Aren't we supposed to know it and conquer it, rather than hide from it?

God and his "kingdom" is within us (Luke 17:21). Maybe you should read your Bible more rather than just picking a dogma and then running with it. That's why I don't even follow the Bible - too much contradictions.

Know thyself. Islam.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

To answer the OP: Yes, your concept of a god is an "evil" one. Any being who has the power to prevent the suffering of sentient beings but chooses not to, is "evil". Case closed.

Choose a better concept of divinity/deity.

 

[SheikhHorusFromTheSky]

To answer the OP: Yes, your concept of a god is an "evil" one. Any being who has the power to prevent the suffering of sentient beings but chooses not to, is "evil". Case closed.

Choose a better concept of divinity/deity.

I like your conclusions.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I like your conclusions.

Thanks.

I was a devout Catholic at one point in time. But I could never reconcile a god of love with the sort of god portrayed throughout the OT. Better to just dump it and go your own way. I am no atheist, though. I just think the organized religions have rubbished what the Divine really is or could be. They have wrecked humanity with their slavish, violent fear mongering. Centuries will pass and we, as a species, will still have not healed from the wounds inflicted by the "revealed" religions.

 

[SheikhHorusFromTheSky]

Thanks.

I was a devout Catholic at one point in time. But I could never reconcile a god of love with the sort of god portrayed throughout the OT. Better to just dump it and go your own way. I am no atheist, though. I just think the organized religions have rubbished what the Divine really is or could be. They have wrecked humanity with their slavish, violent fear mongering. Centuries will pass and we, as a species, will still have not healed from the wounds inflicted by the "revealed" religions.

Yes, unfortunately that has happened. For me though, they do contain some esoteric truth; it's just that the elite 10% always conceal it from the 85% (just recalling what I learned studying up on the Nation of Gods and Earths). Always turn on that dark light, my friend. It'll open up the Pineal Gland!

 

[McBell]

Yes, unfortunately that has happened. For me though, they do contain some esoteric truth; it's just that the elite 10% always conceal it from the 85% (just recalling what I learned studying up on the Nation of Gods and Earths). Always turn on that dark light, my friend. It'll open up the Pineal Gland!

what happened to the other 5%?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yes, unfortunately that has happened. For me though, they do contain some esoteric truth; it's just that the elite 10% always conceal it from the 85% (just recalling what I learned studying up on the Nation of Gods and Earths).

Yes, totally agreed! The masses are always sold a lie by those in power! Thankfully we aren't living in the dark ages anymore and knowledge is free for anyone to find.

Always turn on that dark light, my friend. It'll open up the Pineal Gland!

:clap Cheers to that!

 

[SheikhHorusFromTheSky]

what happened to the other 5%?

I don't know, man. Why? Is there is lesson about the other 5% from the Nation of Gods and Earths?

 

[McBell]

I don't know, man. Why? Is there is lesson about the other 5% from the Nation of Gods and Earths?

No reason other than it just irks me when the percentages do not add up to 100%