Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

[Ingledsva]

This is like a bunch of convicted mass murderers sitting around complaining how the warden is unjust.

....

Just how do you figure this as each person would be judged on their own.

It is this idea that most of you Christians have, - that people are born sinners, - that is so absolutely ridiculous.

*

 

[1robin]

Just how do you figure this as each person would be judged on their own.

I do not understand the question.

It is this idea that most of you Christians have, - that people are born sinners, - that is so absolutely ridiculous.

That is probably the most obvious fact there could ever be. We have something dreadfully wrong with us and yes we all screw up constantly and the trail of damage from those mistakes or intentional wrongs is beyond our capacity to even see and ripples through human history like a disease. Nothing short of the spiritual explains our capacity for immorality. Lions may kill a few more gazelles than needed for food but what lion has ever tried to kill off all gazelles like we have done with each other. Apparently secularists have no solution either because we just keep getting worse. As Nietzsche said since poets and philosophers killed God in the 18th century then the 19th century will be the bloodiest in history, and a general madness will prevail. Not only was it the bloodiest it was bloodier than all previous centuries combined and not only are we mad but Nietzsche literally went insane. If you wish to claim the sun does not exist, up is down, left is right, and we are not immoral for convenience sake, then have at it, as Nietzsche predicted the madness that would produce such a claim.

 

[1robin]

Except in your premise this particular warden created the murderers, instilled in them the capacity to do evil things, and then somehow became surprised when bad things happened.

That is quite disingenuous. He installed in us freewill. Freewill necessitates the capacity to choose wrong, that necessitates the capacity to produce suffering. God did not want automatons he loved us enough not to compel our love for him. We hated him enough to deny him what is due and produce suffering in mountains with the gifts bestowed upon us. That is bad enough but then those that abused the gift blame him for a just decision to condemn what we have corrupted out natures into.

On what basis do you make this claim?

The 19th century is bloodier than all previous centuries combined.

Let's pretend, for a moment, that your ludicrously hyperbolic statement "the most wicked species in all of known history" is accurate and 100 percent factual. The idea that we somehow did this to ourselves is laughable. If your god created us, then he knew full well going in what he was doing and how it would turn out...and did it anyway. He is *absolutely* culpable for it. If I set my hand on fire, knowing that it will hurt and burn, I cannot then blame the fire for hurting me. That would be patently ridiculous.

The fact that you would blame anything else for the misuse of your freewill is what is laughable. When you have the ability to see reality independently from time then you may comment upon what that would mean. A very fallible and finite mind is of little use in understanding a perfect and infinite one. Trees would be more justified in telling Newton how calculus should work. The granting of freewill does not justify condemnation for the one that granted it when we exercise it in the wrong direction. God grants freewill and you condemn him for it, if he took it away you would condemn him for it. I think you methods are heads God looses, tails you win. No other concept in human history is more associated with love, forgiveness, and goodness than God and no tragedy or injustice will ever be made right without him yet we are so warped we blame that being for what we do.

 

[Koldo]

I agree. Where is this going?

Then free will is not a justification for evil... expect for evil thoughts.

 

[TheMusicTheory]

The fact that you would blame anything else for the misuse of your freewill is what is laughable. When you have the ability to see reality independently from time then you may comment upon what that would mean. A very fallible and finite mind is of little use in understanding a perfect and infinite one. Trees would be more justified in telling Newton how calculus should work. The granting of freewill does not justify condemnation for the one that granted it when we exercise it in the wrong direction. God grants freewill and you condemn him for it, if he took it away you would condemn him for it. I think you methods are heads God looses, tails you win. No other concept in human history is more associated with love, forgiveness, and goodness than God and no tragedy or injustice will ever be made right without him yet we are so warped we blame that being for what we do.

This isn't actually an answer. You haven't debated the point, you've just re-stated your position, which was already known.

As far as "condemning" god, I do no such thing because I don't believe he exists. There's nothing to condemn. What I have done is speak on a *hypothetical* god and made the observation that his/her actions plainly speak for themselves, and the outcome is not a positive one for the subject.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

How can you condemn God for taking away free will...if you have no free will.

Not that I believe free will exists...but still....

 

[1robin]

Then free will is not a justification for evil... expect for evil thoughts.

Freewill does not justify evil but it does explain it. I am not exactly sure what your contention is.

 

[1robin]

This isn't actually an answer. You haven't debated the point, you've just re-stated your position, which was already known.

I was unaware that a question existed to be answered. I stated a point and you stated an unjustifiable conclusion based on my premise. I attempted to illustrate why it was unjustified but apparently I did not do so very well. Can you state exactly and in just a few words what it is your are claiming?

As far as "condemning" god, I do no such thing because I don't believe he exists. There's nothing to condemn. What I have done is speak on a *hypothetical* god and made the observation that his/her actions plainly speak for themselves, and the outcome is not a positive one for the subject.

I disagree with your conclusion but my point was the infinite lack of capacity to make the judgment at all. Us calling God evil is far far more ridiculous than Hitler calling mother Theresa evil or the sun calling a match too hot. We simply do not have that capacity. What standard are you using that can condemn God? What binds him? I do not like divine command theory but it is true in claiming that no capacity exists within humans to ever show anything God ever did was wrong. I do not like it because it seems too convenient, but it is logically sound. I would argue God is good but until you can find some methodology that enables you to judge God we are still in the starting blocks. I will make it a little simpler. God either allegorically or literally killed every human on Earth except for a few members of a family. Whether true or hypothetical if any act by God can be shown to be evil it would be that one. Please complete this sentence. You know and can show God acted evilly by killing all those people based on _______________________________.

 

[1robin]

How can you condemn God for taking away free will...if you have no free will.

Not that I believe free will exists...but still....

We are in hyper hypothetical mode so just imagine you could. My point being if you resent God, accountability, or theology etc....... you would condemn God for whatever he happens to be. G.K. Chesterton said the thing hat made him give up on his atheism is the contradictions in its claims. Atheists will at different times claim God is too intrusive and too remote, too militant and too passive, too dogmatic and too capricious, too demanding and too permissive, etc... Chesterton said God could not possibly be both a black mask on a white world and a white mask on a black world. He said he left atheism not because God was great but because atheism was stupid. Only later did he become a Christian and find out that God is great. Whatever God may be the last being capable of judging him as evil are humans. It is far worse than having a jury of Attila the Huns condemning Billy Graham. We use evil as a past time and entertainment. How then can we judge what is evil? By what standard is God bound?

 

[adi2d]

A benevolent God would not drown babies. They are innocent and were killed because others were evil

 

[1robin]

A benevolent God would not drown babies. They are innocent and were killed because others were evil

On what standard are you declaring God taking life is wrong? Your opinion? Evolutionary dogma? Hitler's opinion? The law? What standard binds God?





You have two choices here.

1. A God that created life decided to take that which he created. According to Christian doctrine those babies went to heaven for eternity without having to qualify (risk not qualifying which most would have not done based on the massive sins of their families). He operated within his sovereignty and sense of absolute justice by preventing a thousand generations of total depravity, misery, oppression, and violence.

2. A creature more fallible and wicked than any known in history has a standard and knowledge base to judge a God that knew the future of his actions and inaction. A creature that rejects the only possible solution to the problem of the injustice he has created and complains of. A creature that would have preferred the thousand generations of evil that would have resulted is a poor judge. A creature that kills infants in the womb as a sacred right can't possibly be qualified to judge the being that created that which humans destroy on an industrial scale. A race that has devised the methods of destroying all life in existence and in their moral insanity almost has at least twice, is hardly trustworthy. Maybe you think tens of thousands of children being forced to endure eternal contentment is too high a price to prevent universal misery and injustice for a thousand generations but I do not.

You still have not shown God was actually wrong. At best you have shown that in your ignorance you disagree with God, which I would have predicted and granted up front and is hardly the issue.

 

[adi2d]

Ok. Let's see if I got this right...

God in his infinite wisdom killed all life on earth except for one family
All the children went to heaven. Good so far
Then that family re populated the earth creating the worst population ever. Worse than all generations before it combined
I don't see the improvement



If you can't see that killing babies is wrong I don't know how I could convince you

Man kills babies retail. God did it wholesale.

 

[1robin]

Ok. Let's see if I got this right...

God in his infinite wisdom killed all life on earth except for one family
All the children went to heaven. Good so far

I am surprised you conceded agreement with even so obvious a positive outcome. Most non-theist just won't consent to anything out of general principle alone. It is as if on ray of light gets through and the entire atheist house of cards is at risk. I am glad to see you did not do this here.




Then that family re populated the earth creating the worst population ever. Worse than all generations before it combined
I don't see the improvement [/quote] On what was this based? The generation that was destroyed was said to be completely evil .

New International Version
The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

The generations since their time have been bad but not universally evil. I have no idea where you got that claim from. If from my comments I think you are misunderstanding them. I said we are the most wicked species in known history. I was not meaning the currently or modern generation specifically. I meant humans have a unique level of evil that the animal kingdom in general does not possess. The things we have done can only be explained given the spiritual. If you can imagine a universal North Korea and a race of Stalin's and Hitler's and that is the impression I get of Noah's fellow humans.

If you can't see that killing babies is wrong I don't know how I could convince you

I can see it, in every circumstance but with God's doing so. In fact only if God exists is it actually wrong at all. Our laws do not make anything actually wrong or right. However I asked you to prove it not use the old liberal tactic of evading the question you can't answer by assuming a moral high ground that in fact does not exist within your views. That tactic is probably the most often abused method on the left and it is despicable and obvious. If you are as honest as Dawkins you would admit hat without God even what Hitler did can't be shown actually wrong.

Man kills babies retail. God did it wholesale.

Even if that strange statement were true and it isn't (The entire numbers God has been recorded to have killed is less than 2 million, even indirectly in the entire Bible) man kills that many in the womb in a month. The big difference is that man did not create the life he took, had no good reason beyond convenience and a lack of accountability, and can't put anyone in heaven. God did create the life, had very very good reasons, and can resolve all pain and misery suffered by that child for eternity and even spare him from being corrupted into non qualification by his wicked parents of the day.

Again I get that you disagree with what God does. Do you have the slightest evidence he actually did something wrong?

 

[adi2d]

This is like a bunch of convicted mass murderers sitting around complaining how the warden is unjust.

A species who after at least 40 centuries has only increased it's evil is not a good judge of anything moral much less God.

You are the one that said we are more evil than ever

Maybe you should quit calling me ignorant until you can get your story straight

 

[1robin]

You are the one that said we are more evil than ever

Maybe you should quit calling me ignorant until you can get your story straight

Your ignorance concerning the lack of methodology that could even potentially serve to judge God cannot be blamed on my comment about our level of evil in the past not is there even an error. Nor does it help with the actual arguments I made. So far not one reason has been presented to show God is evil even in the worst case scenario I gave. My statement was in fact pretty accurate despite being a guess. The flood if even literal was to have occurred about 5000 years ago and so my claim about the last 4000 years would be true even if the Bible story is a literal one both it and my claim would still true. They are not mutually exclusive.

Do not take my use of ignorance as an insult. I mean you literally do not know something not that you are stupid or anything. Have you given up on your argument?

 

[kjw47]

Ok. Let's see if I got this right...

God in his infinite wisdom killed all life on earth except for one family
All the children went to heaven. Good so far
Then that family re populated the earth creating the worst population ever. Worse than all generations before it combined
I don't see the improvement



If you can't see that killing babies is wrong I don't know how I could convince you

Man kills babies retail. God did it wholesale.

God has promised a resurrection to judgement--- The children who died by the hand of God, now wont have lived totally wicked lives that their own parents would have taught them to do( false god worship-pagan practices) thus will be given the opportunity in Gods kingdom to learn and apply truth--if they do they will live forever.
One of satans very manipulative ways--getting parents to hand wickedness to their own children. its always been 99% mislead.

 

[1robin]

God has promised a resurrection to judgement--- The children who died by the hand of God, now wont have lived totally wicked lives that their own parents would have taught them to do( false god worship-pagan practices) thus will be given the opportunity in Gods kingdom to learn and apply truth--if they do they will live forever.
One of satans very manipulative ways--getting parents to hand wickedness to their own children. its always been 99% mislead.

Logic and reason are of no use against the power of the backside of the force. I made the same logical point you have in even more detail and it does not phase those who think it convenient that God should not exist (which is an incoherent desire anyway). Facts, logic, and even the ultimate hope of restoration have no effect on preference.

 

[adi2d]

Your ignorance concerning the lack of methodology that could even potentially serve to judge God cannot be blamed on my comment about our level of evil in the past not is there even an error. Nor does it help with the actual arguments I made. So far not one reason has been presented to show God is evil even in the worst case scenario I gave. My statement was in fact pretty accurate despite being a guess. The flood if even literal was to have occurred about 5000 years ago and so my claim about the last 4000 years would be true even if the Bible story is a literal one both it and my claim would still true. They are not mutually exclusive.

Do not take my use of ignorance as an insult. I mean you literally do not know something not that you are stupid or anything. Have you given up on your argument?

Telling me I am ignorant for questioning is an insult weather you meant to or not.

Do you believe that the Flood was an actual event? The thing I have a problem with the Flood story is God killed everyone because they were evil. Then Noah and family were saved to re populate the earth. Nothing changed and an omni God would know that. He could have changed us in some way where we could be better as a species and still have free will. That would have been a logical reason for destroying us
An upgrade without an improvement is not an upgrade

By the way I'm not guided by the dark side or a liberal avoiding your answers I'm just seeking an understanding

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This is like a bunch of convicted mass murderers sitting around complaining how the warden is unjust.

Hmm. A textbook ad hominem: "the person making the claim is bad, therefore the claim must be false." The mere fact that a warden guards a bunch of mass murderers doesn't automatically make him just.

A species who after at least 40 centuries has only increased it's evil

Baloney. We live in the safest age in human history. A human being living today is less likely to be killed by violence than at any other time ever.

I realize that this doesn't mesh with the Bible's doom and gloom prophecies of a world decaying until the Second Coming sets everything right, but it's what's actually happening.

is not a good judge of anything moral much less God.

The claim that we can't tell right from wrong implies that Christ's sacrifice was unnecessary.

The Fall was the result of gaining knowledge of good and evil. If we don't have this knowledge, then there was no Fall and therefore no reason to restore humanity.

Not only do we kill and take life we had no right to but do it many times for the fun of it. We even use it and immorality of every sort as popular entertainment. God takes a life he created, with full knowledge of the total impact, and completely within his justifiable sovereignty and those that take lives they did not create, knew nothing of the total cost, and within no justifiable realm call him evil, then we televise it into every home in almost every nation. If that were not enough we will pretend like we kill people and commit every form of immorality our distorted imagination can devise. After all that we will call the only being in this sad circus that has given exhaustive explanation and sources for our immorality, methods to limit it, and a promise to illuminate it the bad guy. The most wicked species in all of known history calling the being most universally associated with good and love as being evil is just about the best proof the Bible could have of our moral insanity.

Maybe you thought how the creator of nature treated a piece of the shrubbery a meaningful point but I don't see it.

I think that "evil" - or perhaps "psychopathic" - is a very appropriate term for anyone who considers a human being to have no more value than a shrub.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That is quite disingenuous. He installed in us freewill. Freewill necessitates the capacity to choose wrong, that necessitates the capacity to produce suffering. God did not want automatons he loved us enough not to compel our love for him. We hated him enough to deny him what is due and produce suffering in mountains with the gifts bestowed upon us. That is bad enough but then those that abused the gift blame him for a just decision to condemn what we have corrupted out natures into.

I thought you said before that you weren't sure if there was free will in Heaven. Have you changed your mind? What you said above has some definite implications for the answer to that question.