Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

[1robin]

What? I'm qualified to judge whatever I like. I read the statement, followed it to its logical conclusion and responded.

Who are the beings who can't remember the past??

We are those beings and you are right you can judge but your judgments are just meaningless in this case.

 

[1robin]

No, we were talking about being "more evolved" or "less evolved." You kept trying to make it about intelligence, and if you'll recall, I kept saying evolution is about a lot more than intelligence.


Do what you like.

I am almost certain it was about intelligence because I made several analogies about writing sonnets and mathematics, etc.... that have no application in a who's more evolved discussion.

 

[1robin]

And that's one of the reasons I think it's immoral and not a system of morality in any sense of the word.

You may think as you wish, but you can't prove it immoral. Nor even if you could would that mean it wasn't true, nor are you qualified to meaningfully judge, nor do you have a framework to judge with at all, if God did not exist to begin with.

If most of you guys would simply say I do not like Christianity and leave it here you would save a whole lot of time and say the same thing.

 

[1robin]

Actually, I agree with what you say - despite my wording my post the way I did. I suppose my reason for posting what I did is that I cannot seem to forgive myself my sins even though I know that Jesus Christ can forgive me so long as I am truly repentant, and have faith in him. The trouble is that I also realise that my attitude (about not being able to forgive myself) is a sin in itself because I am denying Christ's sacrifice by my attitude - and that (presumably) shows that my faith is weak.. So I am a loser whichever way the coin drops - that is how I see it.

We are all losers (even the best of us). As long as we are in a relationship with Christ, he is a winner for us all. The standard for a perfect God is perfection. Only Christ had it and in him our only hope lies.

Can you point me to scripture to help me understand that? (I am not dismissing what you say, but I would be interested to know from whence your belief comes.
I have heard this same belief, that vexation makes us turn more to Christ (those of us who believe in him) for help - is that what you mean?

I think you asking about his intervening in our world or affairs. Those examples would include:

His putting animal skins on Adam and Eve, Noah's arc, countless battles where he saved Israel, the flood, confusion of tongues, parting the sea, sending Christ, the resurrection, etc.... all acts of his within our corporate lives. Since I am sure you knew of these I am bound to think I misunderstood the question or claim.

Which seems to me to mean that life here has to be pretty awful for us to deserve any hope of salvation - which is a really depressing thought.

There is little more obvious that our rebellion or refusal to admit it. We have something so wrong with us morally than only the supernatural can make any sense out of it. The only thing we love more than being wrong is refusing to admit it was wrong.

 

[Ingledsva]

On what standard are you declaring God taking life is wrong? Your opinion? Evolutionary dogma? Hitler's opinion? The law? What standard binds God?

You have two choices here.

1. A God that created life decided to take that which he created. According to Christian doctrine those babies went to heaven for eternity without having to qualify (risk not qualifying which most would have not done based on the massive sins of their families). He operated within his sovereignty and sense of absolute justice by preventing a thousand generations of total depravity, misery, oppression, and violence.

2. A creature more fallible and wicked than any known in history has a standard and knowledge base to judge a God that knew the future of his actions and inaction. A creature that rejects the only possible solution to the problem of the injustice he has created and complains of. A creature that would have preferred the thousand generations of evil that would have resulted is a poor judge. A creature that kills infants in the womb as a sacred right can't possibly be qualified to judge the being that created that which humans destroy on an industrial scale. A race that has devised the methods of destroying all life in existence and in their moral insanity almost has at least twice, is hardly trustworthy. Maybe you think tens of thousands of children being forced to endure eternal contentment is too high a price to prevent universal misery and injustice for a thousand generations but I do not.

You still have not shown God was actually wrong. At best you have shown that in your ignorance you disagree with God, which I would have predicted and granted up front and is hardly the issue.

There is no logic or truth in a God that gives free will, and then doesn't like what they do with that free will, and kills everyone, including the innocent.

That is just pure evil.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

I would not say there is a one to one ration there but the creation of the life plus a few more factors make the taking of it justifiable.

No it doesn't!

Good thing it is just another book.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

Maybe you should read what I was responding to and save the "god is so much better than us" stuff for someone else:

God has promised a resurrection to judgement--- The children who died by the hand of God, now wont have lived totally wicked lives that their own parents would have taught them to do( false god worship-pagan practices) thus will be given the opportunity in Gods kingdom to learn and apply truth--if they do they will live forever.
One of satans very manipulative ways--getting parents to hand wickedness to their own children. its always been 99% mislead.



I just took this odd statement to it's logical conclusion. It sounds to me, like justification to kill children, which I find disturbing. Sorry.

Yep! and the Tanakh does actually say to kill children whom don't do as you say.

Evil, evil, book.

*

 

[adi2d]

There is no logic or truth in a God that gives free will, and then doesn't like what they do with that free will, and kills everyone, including the innocent.

That is just pure evil.

*

That is especially true when He had the tools at hand to prevent it.

Adam and Eve did nothing but what God planned (at least that's the way the story goes)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Think I will keep it. The utter incapacity of the person making the judgment is just a little important.

My statements (including the ones that showed our lack of qualification to judge, plus others of many types) illustrated exactly why that was a ridiculous thing to equate. If you think beings that can't even remember the past are equally qualified to do as a being that knows the future does then I give up.

So you disagree with what the Bible argues in Genesis: that humanity has divine knowledge of good and evil?

 

[Koldo]

Freewill does not justify evil but it does explain it. I am not exactly sure what your contention is.

Does it explain why God still hasn't got rid of it?

 

[Koldo]

1. We are not God. We did not create the lives we actually do actually take by the millions for no good reason. We do not have any sovereignty that gives us any rights what so ever over another persons life unless a serious crime has been committed. IOW we have not one single characteristic that enables God to exercise judgment in these cases.

Considering God gave himself this sovereignty, what is wrong with humans doing the same? It is as abstract as something can get.

2. We have an infinitely (in comparison) small amount of knowledge by which to make decisions upon. God has all the knowledge that can potentially exist. We could and probably have killed innocent lives that would have cured cancer or obesity in the womb without any justification. God would know the future of each person and the consequences of his actions. We do not and yet justify killing the innocent for the mistakes of the guilty, yet we deny God the right to something infinitely more justifiable. That is not only just wrong it is morally delusional.

Actually, if everyone was dead, curing cancer or obesity would be ...

3. We are not living in a world completely corrupted by man. It is very off track but not every kid will be warped by their parents. Not every thought of every man is continuously evil as it was before the flood. There are a few bright spots left of Christian sanity and light. However as the Bible says the end times will be like the times before the flood. So like I have said we are heading that direction again but are not there yet, so even if we created life, even if we were omniscient, even if we were morally perfect (instead of morally insane, in general), your entire argument would still be invalid. Those that kill unborn human life in the womb on an industrial scale for no justifiable reason are wholly unqualified to judge anything much less God and your argument is evidence of that. It is like an insane child shooting his mother because they claimed the time out they were given was unfair.

Wouldn't it still be better for the child to be in heaven?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yes.
But only if you are god.

Because whatever god does is right. Period.

And that's what's wrong with it.

 

[SkepticThinker]

We are those beings and you are right you can judge but your judgments are just meaningless in this case.

We are the beings who can't remember the past? What are you talking about?

My judgments are meaningless to you, you mean.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I am almost certain it was about intelligence because I made several analogies about writing sonnets and mathematics, etc.... that have no application in a who's more evolved discussion.

YOU were trying to make it about intelligence. I was telling you it was about much more than mere intelligence and I pointed that out to you several times during that discussion.

Maybe you can't remember the past, but I can.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You may think as you wish, but you can't prove it immoral. Nor even if you could would that mean it wasn't true, nor are you qualified to meaningfully judge, nor do you have a framework to judge with at all, if God did not exist to begin with.If most of you guys would simply say I do not like Christianity and leave it here you would save a whole lot of time and say the same thing.

I am perfectly capable of judging it, given that I have a brain to use.

It's not a system of morality, it's a system obedience to an invisible authority figure. Don't do what you're told and face punishment. The invisible being decides what's wrong and right with no explanation, and we are supposed to follow orders without any thought on our part. Not only is that immoral but it's dangerous and can be used to justify any act under the sun.

Maybe you can explain to me how exactly that can be considered a system of morality because it certainly doesn't look that way to me.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yep! and the Tanakh does actually say to kill children whom don't do as you say.

Evil, evil, book.

*

Yes it does and yes it is.

Why are people still following the words of ancient peoples who knew next to nothing about the world they inhabited, (Especially compared to what we know now), practiced slavery, practiced genocide, practiced infanticide, etc.? I don't get it.

 

[Ingledsva]

I haven't read through this thread - apart from anything, I'd be too tired to post after doing so...

The basis (Fellow Christians please correct me if I am wrong) of our lives here upon Earth is to give us the opportunity to make a choice as to how we are to live our lives.

The last time I heard, God kicked Satan out of heaven for trying to take over as boss; Satan was then free to come and pester us lowly mortals here upon earth, and to recruit.

God -ultimately- will not and cannot (I believe) "interfere" with what goes on here, because, in doing so, he would, in effect, be meddling with our lives - during which we are free to make choices as to how we live our lives.

To equate the concept of God not allowing children to die - in a purely logical sense would be as near as expecting humans never to kill any form of living creature - and yet we do so - every day. that sounds harsh, and yet the nearest palatable way I can think of comparing this is in the case of the dictum of the scientists who watch and learn from the animal kingdom. they cannot and will not allow themselves to become emotionally involved with the carnage they are watching - when one animal catches and kills prey - even though I'll bet that most humans - as I do - cringe when we see videos of a lion (for example) catching, killing, and devouring an impala.

For one :Ecclesiastes - Wikiquote


This, to me, is -in essence - what life here upon Earth is about-vexation of the spirit- for (as far as I am concerned and understand life to be so)- life is basically made up of every possible opportunity to fall foul of God's laws.

It is almost as if, the more one realises what God wants of us, the more impossible it becomes to live without sinning - and sinning is hurting God, by making him sad.

perhaps those little children who die in such dreadful conditions are actually better off than we, because they are "with God" in heaven soon after their short and brutal lives.

I realise that I have written this in an awfully "crude" manner, but I have tried to express the "bare bones" of the system, as I see it; the more I know of God, the more I realise how much I sin......... I almost wish I was ignorant - it would not be so painful...

Except that we were talking about YHVH murdering the innocent for no reason - which would be interfering with our free will, and straight out murder when it is the innocent.

*

 

[michel]

Except that we were talking about YHVH murdering the innocent for no reason - which would be interfering with our free will, and straight out murder when it is the innocent.

*

To which I would respond - without knowing exactly and factually - to what you refer, as being something that has happened throughout the history of every kind of life here upon earth.

Again, I would posit that life on Earth is to live through "The valley of the shadow of death", and I personally cannot wait for my life to end soon enough. There has been very little mental or physical peace for me in this life - nor enjoyment.

I have attempted suicide before, and the only reason that I do not see that through now, is because I have been brainwashed into believing that I would be causing my wife and children irreparable harm (psychologically) through my need to stop suffering in this world.

The fact that one of the reasons I wish to die is to spare my family the pain of seeing me the way I am - and that, had I succeeded in my goal so many years ago, they would have had the opportunity to replace me with someone far better equipped to give them all a happy and productive life.

Add to that the fact that I believe that taking my own life would have been a sin - but that I was prepared to suffer the consequences for the sake of those I love left behind I would have thought was further evidence of my motive not being one of cowardice as has been described my wish to end my life.

 

[kjw47]

To which I would respond - without knowing exactly and factually - to what you refer, as being something that has happened throughout the history of every kind of life here upon earth.

Again, I would posit that life on Earth is to live through "The valley of the shadow of death", and I personally cannot wait for my life to end soon enough. There has been very little mental or physical peace for me in this life - nor enjoyment.

I have attempted suicide before, and the only reason that I do not see that through now, is because I have been brainwashed into believing that I would be causing my wife and children irreparable harm (psychologically) through my need to stop suffering in this world.

The fact that one of the reasons I wish to die is to spare my family the pain of seeing me the way I am - and that, had I succeeded in my goal so many years ago, they would have had the opportunity to replace me with someone far better equipped to give them all a happy and productive life.

Add to that the fact that I believe that taking my own life would have been a sin - but that I was prepared to suffer the consequences for the sake of those I love left behind I would have thought was further evidence of my motive not being one of cowardice as has been described my wish to end my life.

Your title says Christian--- doesn't a Christian listen to Jesus and apply his teachings in their lives? Here is a major truth from Jesus to help you out of your dilemma---

Therefore, keep on seeking first the kingdom and his( Jehovah) righteousness and all these other things will be added( sustenance, covering, spirituality)

I don't know of a single trinity based religion on this planet that teaches this most important truth for one to live their everyday lives by. I know many teachings from Jesus that contradict the trinity based religions and prove them to be false, because they praise Jesus with their lips, but do not listen to him. Personally some depression may be a chemical imbalance, but I believe selfish thinking causes most of it--this is how to win--Matt 16:24-- a very hard task for any mortal.

 

[adi2d]

Your title says Christian--- doesn't a Christian listen to Jesus and apply his teachings in their lives? Here is a major truth from Jesus to help you out of your dilemma---

Therefore, keep on seeking first the kingdom and his( Jehovah) righteousness and all these other things will be added( sustenance, covering, spirituality)

I don't know of a single trinity based religion on this planet that teaches this most important truth for one to live their everyday lives by. I know many teachings from Jesus that contradict the trinity based religions and prove them to be false, because they praise Jesus with their lips, but do not listen to him. Personally some depression may be a chemical imbalance, but I believe selfish thinking causes most of it--this is how to win--Matt 16:24-- a very hard task for any mortal.

Someone who would analyze depression in another over a post on the internet has a very high opinion of theirself


To michel. No quick cure from your feelings but know that you don't have to face it alone. Talk to your wife or friend in real life

Life sucks and none of us will get out alive. Good luck