Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?

[adi2d]

Lucifer created the serpent. ect

Any biblical support for this? I thought God was the creator of everything(according to the story)

What about the rest of the points?

 

[CG Didymus]

As for the Book of Genesis...

If God did not want Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge, why did he create the tree of knowledge?

And why did he create the serpent?

And why did he allow the serpent to speak?

And why did he allow the serpent in to Eden?

Why would a just and loving God tempt his creations so?

And why would a just and loving God even instill hunger and desire in his creations?

And why would a just and loving God want to keep his creations ignorant of their nakedness?

Why would a just and loving God NOT want his creations to eat from the tree of knowledge and the tree of life?

All of these are easily explained by God being so good and so just that he wanted us to have freewill so we could have the ability to screw up so he could send his Son to save us. Simple.

 

[ZooGirl02]

I really have no idea. But then again, I am not even sure whether or not any deity exists.

 

[adi2d]

All of these are easily explained by God being so good and so just that he wanted us to have freewill so we could have the ability to screw up so he could send his Son to save us. Simple.

Except you still have the problem of God taking away our freewill when it came to tree of life

 

[maninthewilderness]

Lucifer created the serpent. ect

Where did you get this notion?

Biblical source?

Historical source?

Something you were told by your parents or your preacher?



I've read most of the King James Bible, and most of the Apocrypha and I have never read any passage that says that Lucifer created the serpent in Genesis.

 

[Ingledsva]

Except you still have the problem of God taking away our freewill when it came to tree of life

I found this little quote and thought it pretty much summed up the ridiculousness in the NT, in just three short sentences.

You have offended me! Here, have my son and KILL him! So I can forgive you!

*

 

[1robin]

Considering God gave himself this sovereignty, what is wrong with humans doing the same? It is as abstract as something can get.

Because God had the sovereignty to bestow, we do not. Not to mention we did not create the life we would be taking, we can't see the future, and we have purposes inconsistent with the father of the universe.

Actually, if everyone was dead, curing cancer or obesity would be ...

So? What is that an analogy of?

Wouldn't it still be better for the child to be in heaven?

We do not know that would be the case. Christians believe that but we should not kill on that basis. If God exists then of course those children are in heaven. We can't assume that, on so great a risk. We all strive for greater faith and many of us would risk our own lives for our faith but I would be hard pressed to wager a bunch of other peoples destinations based on my faith and fortunately am not asked to.

 

[1robin]

We are the beings who can't remember the past?

You mean you do not REMEMBER?

What are you talking about?

We repeat every mistake we commit. The only thing that changes is our technological abilities make each successive occurrence much worse.

My judgments are meaningless to you, you mean.

No, in this context they are objectively meaningless.

 

[1robin]

YOU were trying to make it about intelligence. I was telling you it was about much more than mere intelligence and I pointed that out to you several times during that discussion.

Maybe you can't remember the past, but I can.

I just do not have time to look it up, but will try to soon. For now lets just forget this.

 

[Koldo]

Because God had the sovereignty to bestow, we do not. Not to mention we did not create the life we would be taking, we can't see the future, and we have purposes inconsistent with the father of the universe.

How did you come to the conclusion God has the sovereignty to bestow?
What does that even mean?

If i understood you correctly, your position is 'might makes right'.
If God does not interfer then we are the mighty.

So? What is that an analogy of?

That's not an analogy.

We do not know that would be the case. Christians believe that but we should not kill on that basis. If God exists then of course those children are in heaven. We can't assume that, on so great a risk. We all strive for greater faith and many of us would risk our own lives for our faith but I would be hard pressed to wager a bunch of other peoples destinations based on my faith and fortunately am not asked to.

Obviously. This is what you should have told SkepticThinker.

 

[1robin]

I am perfectly capable of judging it, given that I have a brain to use.

Having a brain is certainly not the only basis by which things can be judged. You lack any standard whatever that would allow you to do what you are trying to. I thank God almighty that human notions of morality do not define truth or else heaven would be a messed as we have made the Earth.

It's not a system of morality, it's a system obedience to an invisible authority figure. Don't do what you're told and face punishment. The invisible being decides what's wrong and right with no explanation, and we are supposed to follow orders without any thought on our part. Not only is that immoral but it's dangerous and can be used to justify any act under the sun.

That is so son-similar to Christianity I will not bother with it. However if Christianity was even similar to what you made up I would hate it to.

Maybe you can explain to me how exactly that can be considered a system of morality because it certainly doesn't look that way to me.

What you described has nothing to do with anything and is therefor is not in need of explanation.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Having a brain is certainly not the only basis by which things can be judged.

What else do we judge with??

You lack any standard whatever that would allow you to do what you are trying to. I thank God almighty that human notions of morality do not define truth or else heaven would be a messed as we have made the Earth.

According to you, based on your religious views. Obviously I disagree.

Human notions of morality apply on earth because humans created morality. Few things are more obvious to me than that.

That is so son-similar to Christianity I will not bother with it. However if Christianity was even similar to what you made up I would hate it to.

That is exactly what Christianity is. Do what the big guy in the sky says … or else. That is not a system of morality. It is simply obedience to authority.

It amounts to this, imo:

“Why do I have to kill my child?”

“Because I said so.”

“Why do I have to (insert absolutely anything here)?”

“Because I said so.”


Instead of just saying “nuh uh” how about articulating why it is not what I assert to be? How can Christianity be considered a system of morality?

What you described has nothing to do with anything and is therefor is not in need of explanation.

Try to brush me off all you like. My point stands.

 

[CG Didymus]

There is no logic or truth in a God that gives free will, and then doesn't like what they do with that free will, and kills everyone, including the innocent.

That is just pure evil.

*

I know Christians say God gave us freewill and we chose to disobey, and therefore, he was justified in cursing us. But isn't it more like he always told us what he wanted and expected from us and even warned us that he would punish us if we didn't obey?

He warned us about the damn fruit. He told us not to go pick up firewood on the Sabbath. He told us not to worship false-gods. He told us not to commit adultery. He warned us not to vote democratic but republican. So no, he's not pure evil, he warned us and told us the punishment. He's just really dumb in thinking we'd listen to him.

 

[CG Didymus]

I am perfectly capable of judging it, given that I have a brain to use.

It's not a system of morality, it's a system obedience to an invisible authority figure. Don't do what you're told and face punishment. The invisible being decides what's wrong and right with no explanation, and we are supposed to follow orders without any thought on our part. Not only is that immoral but it's dangerous and can be used to justify any act under the sun.

Maybe you can explain to me how exactly that can be considered a system of morality because it certainly doesn't look that way to me.

What do Christians use to judge with? Even if they say the Bible, they need their brains to know who is telling them the truth about the Bible. If they say the Spirit, they have to use their brains to figure out if it's really the Holy Spirit or just some ordinary dorky spirit.

On your other point, though, you are totally wrong--lots of people have seen God and have seen Jesus, a lot more have seen Mary and others have seen Gabriel or Moroni. Jacob wrestled with God. A bunch of people have died and come back and wrote books about being in heaven. Isn't that proof enough for you that God is real?

Just because all their stories vary a little and God tells them to tell us different things that totally contradicts what he supposedly said to someone else doesn't mean he is not real and has the best intentions for us. Just use your God-given brains and figure out which message from God is the truest one, or better yet, talk to him. He is real and all around you. Listen to him and obey the good moral rules he tells you to live by, and then force, I mean tell everyone what God said--in a sweet, loving kind way of course.

If they refuse to listen, then it's alright to kill the bums, that should straighten them out and get them to live by God's morals. No wait, then they'd be dead. Oh well, they deserved it. It was their freewill choice to disobey. At least, the rest of us can listen to you and follow what God told you to tell us about how to live a good moral life. Unless that is, what you tell us doesn't make sense. Then we'd have to kill you because God told us to kill all false prophets. Sorry, it's his rules not mine.

 

[Ingledsva]

Dolphins Rape, have been known to kill porpoises for no reason.

Killer Whales beat up and take out chunks of Great White sharks, yet they don't eat them.

Ducks Rape

Lions will kill cubs to keep from having competition and at times will rape females.

The chimpanzee is also an extremely violent animal unlike it's cousin the Bonobo Chimp.

Lamprey have been responsible for at least two species of fish if I remember correctly.

Did you somehow miss that MOST in the sentence?

*

 

[Ingledsva]

And nothing you said had to do with the idea of being born sinners.

So you agree we are sinners but your hang up is that we are born that way? That is a claim which all evidence that exists refutes but it seems to be a difference without a distinction so I will not argue it.

NO! We are not BORN sinners - that is ridiculous.

More brain power - more choice.

The reason people do these things, and most animals don't, is because of our higher brain function. We can think dark and sneaky. We can make real choices for ourselves, including bad ones.

Then there ought to be a brain capacity verses evil correlation in all of nature that is not there. Are Dolphins far more evil than jelly fish?

What part of "WE CAN" do you not understand? CHOICE!

A jelly fish is just a jelly fish - no evil intent. A dolphin with the bigger brain can think - and make choices.

In fact it is many times the stupidest of all of us or even a brain that is very damaged or dysfunctional that is responsible for the greatest evil. Neither Hitler nor Stalin were or above average intelligence yet created the greatest evils anyone has. The point you made apparently stemmed from desperation and the need to say something no matter how irrational to counter an very inconvenient claim I had made.

First - one only needs enough thinking capacity to make a an informed choice to do good or evil.

Secondly - Actually every article or study I've ever seen suggest both Hitler and Stalin had above average IQs.

BTW Skeptical thinker made the bizarre argument that we are not more intelligent that animals when that was convenient. The mutually exclusive claims made by atheists are an argument against atheism even if it was true. You guys will say anything. As Chesterton said God could not be both a white mask on a black world and a black mask on a white world.

BULL! But you obviously will! Stick to the debate!

*

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Did you somehow miss that MOST in the sentence?

*

Nope, I just wanted to list off the animals that do the "cruel" things that seemingly only humans do, there's probably a lot more that I don't know and much more we are learning. We really aren't that much different from other animals in regards to our "dark and twisted" behaviors. Some may say that it's our own choices, but it seems just as much as part of nature than not.

As for the "most", it comes down to a lot of different factors for why we do it "more". That stems probably more from our idea that we are higher organisms rather than our own "nature"

That same higher belief in ourselves has been the source of racism, sexism, ageism, and all the other ism's out there.

 

[Ingledsva]

Nope, I just wanted to list off the animals that do the "cruel" things that seemingly only humans do, there's probably a lot more that I don't know and much more we are learning. We really aren't that much different from other animals in regards to our "dark and twisted" behaviors. Some may say that it's our own choices, but it seems just as much as part of nature than not.

As for the "most", it comes down to a lot of different factors for why we do it "more". That stems probably more from our idea that we are higher organisms rather than our own "nature"

That same higher belief in ourselves has been the source of racism, sexism, ageism, and all the other ism's out there.

Most animals do not have the brain capacity to "rape." They are just trying to mate with something. Sometimes with whatever is available.

*

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Most animals do not have the brain capacity to "rape." They are just trying to mate with something. Sometimes with whatever is available.

*

Sometimes, however it's been shown in some species, like dolphins that it has very little to do with copulation.

I could make the same arguments with people that rape is just them wanting to mate with something but our "higher" thinking has turned it into something more than just mating.

 

[idav]

Sometimes, however it's been shown in some species, like dolphins that it has very little to do with copulation.

I could make the same arguments with people that rape is just them wanting to mate with something but our "higher" thinking has turned it into something more than just mating.

Higher thinking could be what keeps people from raping their shoe. What your saying is the mind makes it a sin. This is true in the sense that we fathom the ramifications.