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Why does the church teach differently to what it believes?

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
When it comes to some church teachings, it is clear that those teachings contradict what the church hierarchy actually believes.

For example, while its a common church teaching that the soul is something separate from the body, the actual belief of the church is this:

NewCatholicEncyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIII, pp. 449, 450.
“There is no dichotomy [division] of body and soul in the O[ld] T[estament]. The Israelite saw things concretely, in their totality, and thus he considered men as persons and not as composites. The term nepeš [ne′phesh], though translated by our word soul, never means soul as distinct from the body or the individual person. . . . The term [psy·khe′] is the N[ew] T[estament] word corresponding with nepeš. It can mean the principle of life, life itself, or the living being.”
Is it time the church fessed up and started teaching what they actually believe? And does it bother christians that they are not being taught what the bible really means?

 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
I think it's a matter of interpretation. I think pretty much everyone at my church believes that the soul is distinct from the physical body and believe that this is taught by the Bible. What they teach and what they believe is consistent in that respect. However, my church is Protestant and your quote seems to be from a Catholic encyclopedia.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
I think it's a matter of interpretation. I think pretty much everyone at my church believes that the soul is distinct from the physical body and believe that this is taught by the Bible. What they teach and what they believe is consistent in that respect. However, my church is Protestant and your quote seems to be from a Catholic encyclopedia.


But the Hebrew word for soul does not mean something distinct from the body...it is the living body in its entirety. That is what the Catholic encyclopedia is also acknowledging. ...it's the living person or animal which is the soul.

So it's not distinct at all. The churches are not teaching according to the Bible in this regard....yet people believe it does come from the Bible. To me that means the churches are misleading you. I would even go so far as to say 'lying' to you.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
When it comes to some church teachings, it is clear that those teachings contradict what the church hierarchy actually believes.

For example, while its a common church teaching that the soul is something separate from the body, the actual belief of the church is this:

NewCatholicEncyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIII, pp. 449, 450.
“There is no dichotomy [division] of body and soul in the O[ld] T[estament]. The Israelite saw things concretely, in their totality, and thus he considered men as persons and not as composites. The term nepeš [ne′phesh], though translated by our word soul, never means soul as distinct from the body or the individual person. . . . The term [psy·khe′] is the N[ew] T[estament] word corresponding with nepeš. It can mean the principle of life, life itself, or the living being.”
Is it time the church fessed up and started teaching what they actually believe? And does it bother christians that they are not being taught what the bible really means?
This is a badly chopped-up paraphrase, and no matter how desperately the Watchtower tries to twist the Catholic Encyclopedia to support its view, neither the Catholic Encylopedia nor the Catholic Church teaches what you want them to teach. The deliberate misrepresentation of the Catholic Church's teachings on the part of the Watchtower, and trying to make it appear as if there's some "conspiracy" on the part of the Catholic Church to lie to people and hide the truth is why I have absolutely no respect for the Watchtower; it is academically and intellectually dishonest, and incredibly disrespectful.

This is a more complete and in-context quote from that article that sheds much light on the tiny snippets the Watchtower so surreptitiously excised:

As a human life, nepeš can be identical with the personal pronoun or the reflexive pronoun (Gn 27.4, 25; Lam3.24, where "says my soul" could be just as correctly translated "say I," etc.). As the "I," the nepeš performs all the sensations of an individual. The nepeš hungers, thirsts, hopes, longs, loves, and hates.

At death, the nepeš goes to Sheol, a place of an insensitive, shadowy existence. Many psalms pray for the rescue of one's nepeš from death, where the rescue means to be saved from dying, not to be raised from the dead. Happiness after death is known only in late OT revelation.

New Testament. The term ψυχή is the NT word corresponding with nepeš. It can mean the principle of life, life itself, or the living being. Through Hellenistic influence, unlike nepeš, it was opposed to body and considered immortal.

The psyche in Mt 10.28, "And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul [psyche]; but rather be afraid of him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell," means a life that exists separately from the body. The meaning of psyche in our Lord's statement, "[T]he Son of Man has not come to be served but to serve, and to give his life [psyche] as a ransom for many," is obviously His mortal existence (Mt 20.28; Jn 10.11). As a living being, subject to various experiences, it can refer to animals, "And every live thing [psyche] in the sea died" (Rv 16.3), or to humans, "Fear came upon every soul [psyche]" (Acts 2.43; Rom 2.9; 13.1). Thus the psyche feels, loves, and desires. In this connection it can be used to mean the personal or reflexive pronoun, as in Jn 10.24, "How long dost thou keep us [our psyches] in suspense?"

Thus far, ψυχή is quite similar to the Hebrew nepeš, except for Mt 10.28. Under the Greek influence, however, it was gradually opposed to body and was used for the immortal principle in man (Rv 6.9; 20.4).

In summary, the Hebrew nepeš generally is connected with the concrete sign of life in the individual, the "I" that feels, wills, pants for, etc. Its end is Sheol. The Greek counterpart, ψυχή, includes many of the meanings of nepeš; but it has added to the concept "I," the immortality of later philosophy and revelation.​

-Source

And another quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Three terms are used for the soul: nephesh, nuah, and neshamah; the first was taken to refer to the animal and vegetative nature, the second to the ethical principle, the third to the purely spiritual intelligence. At all events, it is evident that the Old Testament throughout either asserts or implies the distinct reality of the soul. An important contribution to later Jewish thought was the infusion of Platonism into it by Philo of Alexandria. He taught the immediately Divine origin of the soul, its pre-existence and transmigration; he contrasts the pneuma, or spiritual essence, with the soul proper, the source of vital phenomena, whose seat is the blood; finally he revived the old Platonic Dualism, attributing the origin of sin and evil to the union of spirit with matter.

It was Christianity that, after many centuries of struggle, applied the final criticisms to the various psychologies of antiquity, and brought their scattered elements of truth to full focus. The tendency of Christ's teaching was to centre all interest in the spiritual side of man's nature; the salvation or loss of the soul is the great issue of existence. The Gospel language is popular, not technical. Psyche and pneuma are used indifferently either for the principle of natural life or for spirit in the strict sense. Body and soul are recognized as a dualism and their values contrasted: "Fear ye not them that kill the body . . . but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell."

In St. Paul we find a more technical phraseology employed with great consistency. Psyche is now appropriated to the purely natural life; pneuma to the life of supernatural religion, the principle of which is the Holy Spirit, dwelling and operating in the heart. The opposition of flesh and spirit is accentuated afresh (Romans 1:18, etc.).

It is a well-known fact that early Hebrews and Israelites did have the belief that the soul was simply the life-force of the person, and was not a distinct entity from the body. However, by the time of Christianity, the Israelite view of the soul had evolved, due to additional revelation and understanding given to the people of Israel by God. Philo of Alexandria in particular helped to expound on this view.​

-Source

As you can see, the Catholic Church adamantly believes in and defends the duality of soul and body as a revelation from God. The ancient Israelites were much more primitive in their thinking about the relationship between the soul and the body, and had an almost nonexistent concept of the afterlife; even the resurrection of the dead was a far later development in the history of Israelite thought, coming after much later prophets had brought new revelation from God. It appears that the Jehovah's Witnesses have elected to conform themselves to this earlier form of Israelite thought, rather than the beliefs of Christians in the 1st century AD.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
It looks to me that they are admiting that the idea of a distinct and separate entityt to the body comes from 'greek' influcence...not from the bible.

ie,
" Under the Greek influence, however, it was gradually opposed to body and was used for the immortal principle in man"

"An important contribution to later Jewish thought was the infusion of Platonisminto it by Philo of Alexandria. He taught the immediately Divine origin of the soul, its pre-existence and transmigration..."

"Through Hellenistic influence, unlike nepeš, it was opposed to body and considered immortal."



and this is an interesting admission:
" It is a well-known fact that early Hebrews and Israelites did have the belief that the soul was simply the life-force of the person, and was not a distinct entity from the body. However, by the time of Christianity, the Israelite view of the soul had evolved, due to additional revelation and understanding given to the people of Israel by God. Philo of Alexandria in particular helped to expound on this view."

who was Philo of Alexandria? A jewish philosopher, who used Greek ideas to give new meanings and interpretations to the hebrew scriptures in order to attract greeks to judaism.

There has been no misrepresentation of the catholic encyclopedia. It is exactly what i said... they teach one thing about the soul, but believe another. What they believe is what they know to be true... the hebrew soul was the living body. And what they teach is that the soul is separate from the body....and those teachings come, not from the bible, but from philosophers and pagan religions.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
It looks to me that they are admiting that the idea of a distinct and separate entityt to the body comes from 'greek' influcence...not from the bible.
Then what are the Gospels and the Epistles? Chopped liver? The only way you can make your position valid is to completely reject the statements about the nature of the soul and the dichotomy between the soul and the body made in later books of Scripture, and only admit the validity of the pre-prophetic books on this matter.

ie,
" Under the Greek influence, however, it was gradually opposed to body and was used for the immortal principle in man"

"An important contribution to later Jewish thought was the infusion of Platonisminto it by Philo of Alexandria. He taught the immediately Divine origin of the soul, its pre-existence and transmigration..."

"Through Hellenistic influence, unlike nepeš, it was opposed to body and considered immortal."



and this is an interesting admission:
" It is a well-known fact that early Hebrews and Israelites did have the belief that the soul was simply the life-force of the person, and was not a distinct entity from the body. However, by the time of Christianity, the Israelite view of the soul had evolved, due to additional revelation and understanding given to the people of Israel by God. Philo of Alexandria in particular helped to expound on this view."

who was Philo of Alexandria? A jewish philosopher, who used Greek ideas to give new meanings and interpretations to the hebrew scriptures in order to attract greeks to judaism.
A duality between the soul and body is also attested to by Jesus, and by St. Paul, as cited in the very article the Watchtower tried to quote from. You don't have a leg to stand on. Philo of Alexandria's thought is all over the Gospels and the Epistles. It is his concept of the Logos that is cited in John 1, and Jesus speaks about the soul being distinct and separate from the body, sharing different fates.

There has been no misrepresentation of the catholic encyclopedia. It is exactly what i said... they teach one thing about the soul, but believe another. What they believe is what they know to be true... the hebrew soul was the living body. And what they teach is that the soul is separate from the body....and those teachings come, not from the bible, but from philosophers and pagan religions.
You have nothing to back up your claim that the Catholic Church believes thus, and you should stop your slandering campaign; it is dishonest, misleading, baseless and insulting. I have the teachings and witness of two thousand years' worth of Christian teachers, scholars, theologians, monks, priests, bishops, deacons and laypeople to support my claim.
 

Scott C.

Just one guy
When it comes to some church teachings, it is clear that those teachings contradict what the church hierarchy actually believes.

For example, while its a common church teaching that the soul is something separate from the body, the actual belief of the church is this:

NewCatholicEncyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIII, pp. 449, 450.
“There is no dichotomy [division] of body and soul in the O[ld] T[estament]. The Israelite saw things concretely, in their totality, and thus he considered men as persons and not as composites. The term nepeš [ne′phesh], though translated by our word soul, never means soul as distinct from the body or the individual person. . . . The term [psy·khe′] is the N[ew] T[estament] word corresponding with nepeš. It can mean the principle of life, life itself, or the living being.”
Is it time the church fessed up and started teaching what they actually believe? And does it bother christians that they are not being taught what the bible really means?
I can't speak for the Catholic Church, but that quote is interesting. My church teaches that the "spirit" and "body" are the "soul" of man and woman. Although spirit and soul are frequently interchanged in discussion, technically the soul is the spirit and body. The spirit returns to God at death to await the resurrection.
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
But the Hebrew word for soul does not mean something distinct from the body...it is the living body in its entirety. That is what the Catholic encyclopedia is also acknowledging. ...it's the living person or animal which is the soul.

So it's not distinct at all. The churches are not teaching according to the Bible in this regard....yet people believe it does come from the Bible. To me that means the churches are misleading you. I would even go so far as to say 'lying' to you.
I wouldn't call it lying if that's what a church really believes.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
I can't speak for the Catholic Church, but that quote is interesting. My church teaches that the "spirit" and "body" are the "soul" of man and woman. Although spirit and soul are frequently interchanged in discussion, technically the soul is the spirit and body. The spirit returns to God at death to await the resurrection.

Yes, thats pretty much in line with the bible.

And its why the bible says the soul can die:

Ezekiel 18;4 Look! All the souls*—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so also the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul* who sins is the one who will die.
So if the soul can die, then it must be the physical part of man rather then something metaphysical.
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
So if you believe the sky is blue, but you teach people that its actually red, its not lying?
That would be lying, yes. The difference is that my church both believes and teaches that the soul is separate from the physical body. Hence, not lying.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
That would be lying, yes. The difference is that my church both believes and teaches that the soul is separate from the physical body. Hence, not lying.

if thats the case, then sure, its not lying.

But in the case of the catholic church, they themselves know that the hebrew word for soul means the living breathing person... yet they teach that the soul is the inner spirit or metaphysical type entity of man which continues living after the body has died.

So there is definitely a conflict between what they know and what they teach.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
if thats the case, then sure, its not lying.

But in the case of the catholic church, they themselves know that the hebrew word for soul means the living breathing person... yet they teach that the soul is the inner spirit or metaphysical type entity of man which continues living after the body has died.

So there is definitely a conflict between what they know and what they teach.
At least, that's what that specific Hebrew word meant at that specific time in history. The meaning of words is not static; definitions evolve and change. Just look at the word "gay" for example. Seventy years ago, it meant something very different than what it means now.

You also have to reckon with the Greek words as well, not just the Hebrew ones. And that is the point that the New Catholic Encyclopedia makes; the understanding of the concept of "soul" changed and developed as time went on and as God granted us more revelation, and as He saw fit to carry the Gospel to the entire world. The human understanding of a "soul" developed from being essentially synonymous with Chinese "chi" to being the modern idea of "soul" that Christianity possesses today, as a result of progressive revelation over time, as one prophet after another came, ultimately culminating in the revelation of Christ and His commissioning the Apostles to spread the Gospel.

You're only looking at the first point in God's revelation to mankind, and the first understanding of the soul that the ancient Hebrews had, and are completely ignoring all subsequent revelation by God through the Prophets and by Christ Himself, and the Apostles through Him.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
At least, that's what that specific Hebrew word meant at that specific time in history. The meaning of words is not static; definitions evolve and change. Just look at the word "gay" for example. Seventy years ago, it meant something very different than what it means now.

You also have to reckon with the Greek words as well, not just the Hebrew ones. And that is the point that the New Catholic Encyclopedia makes; the understanding of the concept of "soul" changed and developed as time went on and as God granted us more revelation, and as He saw fit to carry the Gospel to the entire world. The human understanding of a "soul" developed from being essentially synonymous with Chinese "chi" to being the modern idea of "soul" that Christianity possesses today, as a result of progressive revelation over time, as one prophet after another came, ultimately culminating in the revelation of Christ and His commissioning the Apostles to spread the Gospel.

You're only looking at the first point in God's revelation to mankind, and the first understanding of the soul that the ancient Hebrews had, and are completely ignoring all subsequent revelation by God through the Prophets and by Christ Himself, and the Apostles through Him.

So God reveals that the human living person is a soul... then at a later point in history he changes his mind and says that soul is actually an entity living inside a person? I dont think so.

I dont blame the catholic church for the way the idea of soul originated... i know they didnt originate the ideas about the soul which came later. But i think its irresponsible of them to claim that the idea came as revelation from God when it was really pagan philosophers who introduced the idea. Im just glad that they saw fit to explain what the original meaning of the word was because it was their encyclopedia that taught the WT the meaning of the soul over 100 years ago. Catholic scholars have added much to our understand of the scriptures, and for that we are very grateful.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Most christians and their respective churches have largely moved on to New testament teachings.
It is true that the Jewish teachings in the old testament view Soul as meaning body and spirit combined.
Christianity differs from Judaism in many ways, not this alone.

This is not a real conflicting belief, when you consider that we do talk about the different attributes of body and spirit as separate. Even if at one time we only counted souls.

In language terms, we now refer to the Soul as meaning the spirit. This is a perfectly well understood convention and sits rather better with the Concept of the Holy spirit as part of the Trinity.

Most other denominations see JW's as Old testament believers, Who have difficulty understanding the Deity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. And as their name implies See God in unitarian terms as Jehovah.

It is helpful for many christians to understand the soul as God's spirit residing with in us. Our souls are incorruptible and sinless and return to God when we die. It is through this our spirit that we communicate with God in Prayer, and receive guidance and comfort from the Holy Ghost.
Our Souls/spirits are always of God, they are not Us.

God has never changed his mind about what constitutes our spirits/souls, However the Christian understanding of our beings and the meaning of words has changed over time and with the coming of Jesus.
 

Scott C.

Just one guy
Yes, thats pretty much in line with the bible.

And its why the bible says the soul can die:

Ezekiel 18;4 Look! All the souls*—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so also the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul* who sins is the one who will die.
So if the soul can die, then it must be the physical part of man rather then something metaphysical.

I know that you and I will not agree on life after death. I do believe that the spirit, which is a conscious, thinking, being (i.e. "me") lives after death. I believe that all people will resurrect, which is the reunion of the spirit and body, or the revival of the soul. In this context, the death of the soul is temporary for everyone.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
So God reveals that the human living person is a soul... then at a later point in history he changes his mind and says that soul is actually an entity living inside a person? I dont think so.
God spoke according to the understanding of the people he was dealing with. Just as God initially didn't require the Israelites to abandon their belief in other gods, but only asked that they cease to worship other gods, so God met the Israelites where they were at in their understanding of what a soul was. And later, just as God imposed monotheism on the Israelites through the prophets centuries after Sinai, God progressively gave the Israelites a fuller understanding of the soul by the time of Jesus.

I dont blame the catholic church for the way the idea of soul originated... i know they didnt originate the ideas about the soul which came later. But i think its irresponsible of them to claim that the idea came as revelation from God when it was really pagan philosophers who introduced the idea. Im just glad that they saw fit to explain what the original meaning of the word was because it was their encyclopedia that taught the WT the meaning of the soul over 100 years ago. Catholic scholars have added much to our understand of the scriptures, and for that we are very grateful.
So you're saying the Bible has pagan ideas in it?
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
So you're saying the Bible has pagan ideas in it?

no, im saying the teachings of the churches have pagan ideas in them. The catholic encyclopedia quote even admits it.

Plato, Philo... it is their philosophies about souls and spirits and hells which are being taught today. People are not teaching what is in the bible.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
no, im saying the teachings of the churches have pagan ideas in them. The catholic encyclopedia quote even admits it.

Plato, Philo... it is their philosophies about souls and spirits and hells which are being taught today. People are not teaching what is in the bible.
These philosophies are in the Bible, as much as you may not want to see it.

Perhaps it's the Jehovah's Witnesses who need to teach what's in the Bible, not just one small part of it.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
These philosophies are in the Bible, as much as you may not want to see it.

Perhaps it's the Jehovah's Witnesses who need to teach what's in the Bible, not just one small part of it.

If they were, then they would have been apart of Judaism from the earliest times.

But Sheol/hell in the bible means the grave fullstop. It didnt mean a place of fire where demons lurk.

Nephes/soul in the bible means a living creature (both animal and humans are souls in the bible) full stop. It tells us plainly that the soul can die.

And as for afterlife, it clearly says there is none. There is no consciousness after death.


Thats what the bible teaches.... churches dont teach what the bible says. Why not ask a priest.....they know.
 
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