Monotheism wasn't part of Judaism from the earliest times. Should we get rid of that too and go back to being henotheists and polytheists like the first Israelites were?
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Why does the church teach differently to what it believes?
- Thread starter Pegg
- Start date
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
How the Isrealites may have worshiped, or what they believed before the law of Moses, has no relevance. That was the time they were ignorant of who God and of what his views were.
The law of Moses was the beginning of them being told the true facts.
The one who gave mankind all the wrong ideas in the first place is Satan the devil. And he's still got people believing them today.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Various verses contradict that idea anyway. It doesn't even make sense. What about the resurrection of our new bodies, what, do we get 'new' souls? No of course not. Then where are all the souls?!
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
the church scholars and priests....the hierarchy.
I'm not talking about the followers... im talking about the priests.... they know the bible but they dont teach it.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Pegg, our souls leave the body regardless. New resurrected bodies means our souls go into those bodies, our bodies are not our souls.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
The 'souls' are all living people and animals.
We are the souls. In Genesis, God created 'souls' .... the hebrew word is Nephesh which is translated 'soul'
Genesis 1:20 Then God said: “Let the waters swarm with living creatures (Heb. Nephesh) and let flying creatures (Nephesh) fly above the earth across the expanse of the heavens.”*+ 21 And God created the great sea creatures (Nephesh) and all living creatures (Heb.Nephesh) that move...24 Then God said: “Let the earth bring forth living creatures (Heb.Nephesh) according to their kinds, domestic animals and creeping animals* and wild animals of the earth according to their kinds.”+ And it was so.
So the original bible language says that living creatures, are souls. Human and animal are souls:
It's not something separate and distinct from the body....it IS the living body/person or animal.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
God 'breathed' the breath of life into us. It's separate from the clay by which Adam and 'Eve' were made. Adam and Eve were made from dirt and then given life i.e. 'souls'.
Hence separate.
Hence separate.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
No, our body is the soul. Thats why the bible says that the soul can die:
Ezekiel 18;4 Look! All the souls*—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so also the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul* who sins is the one who will die.
We are not immortal, we are 'mortal' and when we die, we return to dust and our existence ceases.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
yeah, the breath from God brought the soul to life. And that same breath keeps the soul alive.
What happens when God removes the breath of life?
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Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
Jesus said 'some' will join him in heaven. But that doesnt mean everyone. Very few will.
No, the Israelites believed in the existence of other gods after the Law of Moses, too. The Law of Moses doesn't even require the Israelites to reject the existence of other gods. All it says is that you can't worship other gods, but just believing in the existence of other gods is fine. The Mosaic Law mandated henotheism, not monotheism. Monotheism came centuries later with the prophet Isaiah. At the time the Law of Moses was given on Mt. Sinai, God didn't demand that the Israelites stop believing in other gods; He settled for them only worshipping Him. Only centuries later did He impose monotheism on Israel.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
Hi, Sorry if by been a few days late to the discussion that I might be adding to a thread already considered dead. I just joined the forums and have been reading a bit here and there. If you don't mind, I have a few things that came to mind perhaps relevant to this discussion.
First, I am having difficulty with the idea that the belief in only one living God was not the required understanding before the writing of Isaiah. Deuteronomy 32 is a song Moses recited after commissioning Joshua as God's leading representative after him. Verses 17 and 21 exposed the Israelites as ones that had been 'sacrificing to demons' and having 'incited [the true God] to fury (jealousy) with what is not a god,' 'offending [him] with their worthless idols.' It seems that even at this early date, they were warned that the gods of the nations around them were nothing more than dead weight at best and puppetry of demons otherwise.
As regards the distinction of soul and spirit, the question has been left unasked: where in scripture does the definition of soul change to being that same as spirit? (More specific than New Testament please).
As one mostly raised as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I have recognized soul as only meaning (1) humans, (2) animals, or (3) the life humans or animals possess. Or in the rare cases when God refers to 'my soul' he is speaking anthropomorphically, attributing something physical to something spiritual to aid in our understanding. Likewise spirit as having "a number of meanings. All of them refer to that which is invisible to human sight and gives evidence of force in motion. The Hebrew and Greek words are used with reference to (1) wind, (2) the active life-force in earthly creatures, (3) the impelling force that issues from a person’s figurative heart and causes him to say and do things in a certain way, (4) inspired expressions originating from an invisible source, (5) spirit persons, and (6) God’s active force, or holy spirit." - NWT (2013 Revision) Glossary.
Perhaps because of my background, I am not familiar with the verses used to equate the soul with anything other than a physical body combined with life-force or the life an earthly creature possesses. That is other than the few times when God may be speaking anthropomorphically about himself. I grew up with the understanding that inconstancy in the rendering of the root Hebrew and Greek words into English allowed for confusion.However, this is one area of discussion where I have not looked at the proof texts used by other religions for a very long time. I suppose I could do my own research and keep it to myself or post it here uninvited, but that would only benefit me and not honor anyone else here. So I leave the question: What stands out to you from your bible study?
First, I am having difficulty with the idea that the belief in only one living God was not the required understanding before the writing of Isaiah. Deuteronomy 32 is a song Moses recited after commissioning Joshua as God's leading representative after him. Verses 17 and 21 exposed the Israelites as ones that had been 'sacrificing to demons' and having 'incited [the true God] to fury (jealousy) with what is not a god,' 'offending [him] with their worthless idols.' It seems that even at this early date, they were warned that the gods of the nations around them were nothing more than dead weight at best and puppetry of demons otherwise.
As regards the distinction of soul and spirit, the question has been left unasked: where in scripture does the definition of soul change to being that same as spirit? (More specific than New Testament please).
As one mostly raised as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I have recognized soul as only meaning (1) humans, (2) animals, or (3) the life humans or animals possess. Or in the rare cases when God refers to 'my soul' he is speaking anthropomorphically, attributing something physical to something spiritual to aid in our understanding. Likewise spirit as having "a number of meanings. All of them refer to that which is invisible to human sight and gives evidence of force in motion. The Hebrew and Greek words are used with reference to (1) wind, (2) the active life-force in earthly creatures, (3) the impelling force that issues from a person’s figurative heart and causes him to say and do things in a certain way, (4) inspired expressions originating from an invisible source, (5) spirit persons, and (6) God’s active force, or holy spirit." - NWT (2013 Revision) Glossary.
Perhaps because of my background, I am not familiar with the verses used to equate the soul with anything other than a physical body combined with life-force or the life an earthly creature possesses. That is other than the few times when God may be speaking anthropomorphically about himself. I grew up with the understanding that inconstancy in the rendering of the root Hebrew and Greek words into English allowed for confusion.However, this is one area of discussion where I have not looked at the proof texts used by other religions for a very long time. I suppose I could do my own research and keep it to myself or post it here uninvited, but that would only benefit me and not honor anyone else here. So I leave the question: What stands out to you from your bible study?
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Kolibri
Well-Known Member
Please forgive me. I was overtired and forgot one simple thing: This is an open forum and my final words about Deut 32: 17, 21 could be very offensive especially to those who worship deities of a non-Christian or non-Judean origin. Whether or not my synopsis of what the verses said was accurate, to people of those treasured belief-systems my words lacked all tact and consideration.
THEXRATEDXTIAN
Member
I am the church. The true church follows the bible. End of wind bag red herring bollocks to discredit the truth.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
Yes, i agree, the true church follows the bible.
There were hints. But the only commandment that God gave His people regarding this matter is "Put no other gods before me, and do not worship idols." IOW, henotheism, monolatry; the acknowledgement that other gods existed and the belief therein, but that only one should be worshipped. The Israelites believed in multiple gods, and God met them where they were at, and at first only required that they worship Him alone.
The books of the Bible do not form a clean chronology; centuries separate the books from one another. The change in ideas did not originate with the texts themselves, but was evidenced in the texts. This is one fatal flaw of trying to use Scripture as the sole source of authority without referring to the broader historical and cultural contexts, and the theological traditions in which each of the works were written. We see, for example, Matthew 10:28 which says:
"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Now, if the definition of "soul" in St. Matthew's Gospel is the same as that in Genesis, then this would be an entirely nonsensical statement; if one destroys the body, then one would naturally be destroying the soul as well, or the life-force, since you have killed them and thus erased their existence.
However, the fact that killing the body is portrayed as being far different than killing the soul clearly indicates that the soul is not simply the life of a human, or the conscious identity of a person that cannot exist independently of the body. If one can kill the body and not kill the soul, then the existence of the soul does not depend upon the body, but can exist independently from the body. This would, of course, represent a different understanding in the Gospel of Matthew of what a soul is than what we find in the Book of Genesis. We can derive this new understanding of a soul found in the Gospels and the New Testament to 1: a further elaboration and development in Israelite cosmology regarding the fate of the dead and the nature of the afterlife (resulting in a much more descriptive idea of Sheol, and belief in the resurrection of the dead at the end of time), and 2: an influx of Hellenic ideas into Jewish theology, catalyzed in part by Philo of Alexandria, who proceeded Christ by a century or two. Both of these developments can be easily seen in the writings of the Apostles and the teachings of Jesus Himself. If you want examples, I can give them.[/quote]
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
Matthew 10:28
The hell in this scripture is Gehenna, not Hades. Revelation 20: 13,14 says Hades will be emptied and then thrown into the lake of fire which represents 'the second death.' If one takes into account that Gehenna [Greek form of the Hebrew Geh Hin nom', "Valley of Hinnom"] was a historical garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where a cleansing fire was kept continuously, a parallel between Gehenna and the Lake of Fire can be drawn. What goes in, can't come out. What goes in is considered irretrievable. Why might this matter to the definition of the soul at Matthew 10:28? Because when man kills another man, he robs him of his life. But man cannot rob him of his future life prospects. God on the other hand can designate someone dead for all time. It is for this reason, I understand 'soul' at Matthew 10:28 to represent 'life' without needing to look to Greek philosophers to fill in the blanks.
The hell in this scripture is Gehenna, not Hades. Revelation 20: 13,14 says Hades will be emptied and then thrown into the lake of fire which represents 'the second death.' If one takes into account that Gehenna [Greek form of the Hebrew Geh Hin nom', "Valley of Hinnom"] was a historical garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where a cleansing fire was kept continuously, a parallel between Gehenna and the Lake of Fire can be drawn. What goes in, can't come out. What goes in is considered irretrievable. Why might this matter to the definition of the soul at Matthew 10:28? Because when man kills another man, he robs him of his life. But man cannot rob him of his future life prospects. God on the other hand can designate someone dead for all time. It is for this reason, I understand 'soul' at Matthew 10:28 to represent 'life' without needing to look to Greek philosophers to fill in the blanks.
But, according to your definition of "soul", when we die in our bodies, our souls cease to exist--i.e. are destroyed. Is this not true?
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
Jesus was teaching us priorities. That much I think we agree on. Jesus was saying be more concerned about what God thinks and feels, because man can only kill you. Something God can undo as proved by the I think 9(?) resurrections recorded in the Bible.
The understanding is Matthew 10:28 can mean: Do not fear those that can only take your life now, but be in fear of God who can not only take your life now but also remove any future hope for life as well.
(Life now) verses (Life now + any prospect for future life too).
The understanding is Matthew 10:28 can mean: Do not fear those that can only take your life now, but be in fear of God who can not only take your life now but also remove any future hope for life as well.
(Life now) verses (Life now + any prospect for future life too).